Are Japanese People Too Polite To Be Your Friends?

[Megumi Kimoto]

.... THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honest.....

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

 

[Hezam]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, 窶徭omeone窶 has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

yes that's true

 

[FrustratedDave]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

I think you are living in the wrong country...

 

[pipokun]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

There used be a good tradition when you stepped someone's foot.
A: Excuse me for stepping your foot
B: Never mind, I am also sorry for being careless to have my foot stepped.

This is what you call Edo behaviors, sort of surviving tools in the overcrowded city like Edo.

I heard there is a joke in the UK (maybe my translation is not correct, though).
B: Never mind, I have a big foot.

 

[becki_kanou]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

While this is definitely true in some situations, in other situtations, such as the one mentioned about a shop-clerk apologizing to a customer, I think it is necessary for "someone" to apologize even if that someone is not directly responsible for the situation.

I know that I for one would not be happy if the clerk at the shop said to me "We're out of that right now, but I don't particularly care so you'll have to take it up with Tanaka in the purchasing department." In fact I'd probably never visit that shop again. But if she simply replied, "I'm very sorry, but we don't have that now." I'd just say "Ok" and maybe come back again a few days later.

That's just smooth business operation. The person that you're dealing with may not be directly responsible for what happened, but does that mean that you shouldn't receive an apology at all because the person who is responsible is at the head office or somewhere?

 

[Pachipro]

Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.
I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

I think you are living in the wrong country...

Yes, someone usually does have to apologize in Japanese culture regardless of who is at fault. The point is knowing this and understanding that it really truly may not be coming from the heart, but may just be mechanical or superficial. However, in most cases, because of the culture and upbringing, it is in more cases than not, truly sincere. Once one understands this aspect of Japanese culture it becomes easier to get along and understand Japanese culture.

Personally, I like to hear an apology whether they really mean it or not because it conveys a sense of "sabisu" ("service") to the customer where, in a majority of cases, one usually gets a discount or some type of other "service" to atone for the mistake. Rarely will you even hear an apology in the US even when they know they are at fault and rarely will you even receive a discount or other type of "service" to show they are sincere about the customer or the fact that they have caused you an inconvenience unless you really make a "stink" or cause a scene.. A sharp person can usually tell whether the apology is sincere or not especially in their so-called "sabisu" to you or in their actions afterwards.

 

[alantin]

I think, a shop clerk not offering apologies in the described situation and just exhibiting the kind of attitude becki_kanou described, would not only be extremely rude but also very self centered and propably should not be working there.
Even far less would in my opinnion disqualify a person for this line of work!

If you serve customers for your living, you are not just hanging around to receive the money, but you represent the company and thus in some situations you need to offer apologises in it's behalf. There should be nothing strange about it!

Customer service is sometimes very rude here too and I especially like how things are in Japan in this respect.

 

[KirinMan]

I agree. Whenever something happens that disrupts peace and harmony, ﾂ"someoneﾂ" has to apologize in Japan - never mind who is truly at fault.

Megumi I think that this only depends on the situation. When it is Japanese on Japanese someone takes the blame.

However when it is a Japanese person that should be apologizing to a foreigner, or Japanese/Japan and the world....yeah right, fat chance. The attitude to me is like who care's.

I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it

My Dad always pounded into me that saying I'm sorry means that you are going to try your best never to do what you were apologizing in the first place for.

Megumi my sentiments are with Dave here, I too think you are living in the wrong country and maybe the wrong planet as well.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

The topic of this thread is ﾂ"Are Japanese people too polite to be your friends?ﾂ"
So I should not have touched on a salesperson-customer situation in the first place.
I am sorry.

 

[pipokun]

...
If you meet the Indian guy, ask him if he has started something new after he came to Japan.
...

Did you already ask him about the above?
His case seems a bit different as, you said, he mastered Japanese while he was in his home country.

How about his wife? When she is in trouble about the language here, I think you can do lots to her.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I like it better if people apologize only when they really mean it.

How about this situation. We are both customers at a restaraunt and I bump into you and you spill your drink, this was completely my fault. So I turn around and think "why the heck where you standing there anyway", and I don't feel it neccesary to apologise due to my pig headedness (or in better terms my rudeness) So I don't appologise b/c I won't mean it. How would that make you feel? No good I suspect, b/c you had done completely nothing wrong.

We need to consult reality and the reality is that if people were to only appologise when they mean it, some people would probably never appologise in their lifetime.

 

[JimmySeal]

I've come to learn that apologies are a really good thing. Even if they aren't entirely sincere, apologizing shows that the apologizer is thinking about the feelings of the apologizee, and even if the apologizer doesn't particularly care whether they've disturbed the other person's feelings or not, at least they're verbally acknowledging it, and that's better than nothing.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

How about this situation. We are both customers at a restaraunt and I bump into you and you spill your drink, this was completely my fault. So I turn around and think "why the heck where you standing there anyway", and I don't feel it neccesary to apologise due to my pig headedness (or in better terms my rudeness) So I don't appologise b/c I won't mean it. How would that make you feel? No good I suspect, b/c you had done completely nothing wrong.
We need to consult reality and the reality is that if people were to only appologise when they mean it, some people would probably never appologise in their lifetime.

The situation above is about social manners among strangers in a public place.
However, this thread is about how it is possible to deepen a friendship with a Japanese acquaintance.

 

[Ashikaga]

this thread is about how it is possible to deepen a friendship with a Japanese acquaintance.

It is? In that case, the answer is simple. You just spend time getting to know each other. Some people believe that it is impossible to do so because they think that Japanese people are "too polite" while others don't.

Personally, I do not think that you have spent enough time with different people in different cultures to be able to make a fair comparison but you believe what you believe and I doubt that you will change your opinions by reading the posts by others who feel differently.

So, all I have left to say is that I am sorry you are unable to make real friends with Japanese people. It is too bad, really.... some of us make great friends once you get to know us.

 

[KirinMan]

So, all I have left to say is that I am sorry you are unable to make real friends with Japanese people. It is too bad, really.... some of us make great friends once you get to know us.

Just something to consider here Ahikaga, I am fairly certain that Megumi is Japanese herself.

If you take that into consideration along with your comments what does that say about all the foreigners that have problems making friends here or complaining about it here.

If a Japanese person cant make friends with a Japanese...........

 

[Ashikaga]

Just something to consider here Ahikaga, I am fairly certain that Megumi is Japanese herself.
If you take that into consideration along with your comments what does that say about all the foreigners that have problems making friends here or complaining about it here.
If a Japanese person cant make friends with a Japanese...........

A Japanese person who has lived here for a long time finding it impossible to befriend another is a totally different thing than a foreigner with a limited understanding of the Japanese people/culture who feels the same way.

I think it is quite natural that it is harder for a foreigner in Japan (or a Japanese in foreign countries) to make "true" friends when there is that cultural/language barrier. Now, a Japanese person, Megumi, saying that Japanese people are too polite to be your friend, tells me more about the chip on her shoulder than the inability to "be real" on Japanese people's part.

I ask once again, "Japanese people are too polite/two-faced/fake when it comes to dealing with other people" compared to WHOM!? Does she have the same grasp on other cultures/peoples to make that comparison/statement?

Since Megumi only can speak from her own experience, I will do the same and say that I have very good friends who are Japanese whom I love and trust, and I do not think I am one of the only few Japanese people who do.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

I appreciate it when people refrain from starting a flaming war.
Living in a foreign country is a challenging experience.
Comments about your experience are helpful for those who are considering to visit here.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

This really comes down to honne and tatemae. It's hard for Japanese to let anyone in because of the fear for disturbing harmony. Remember, historically speaking, Japan has been a caste-based society with complex rules of etiquette that seek to preserve social harmony and order. These things create a sense of rank and place and sometimes letting the fur fly rocks the boat far too much for their comfort.

I've seen two interesting reactions of Japanese who come to study in the U.S. One is a slow, gradual opening up, realizing that Americans also have honne and tatemae, but that they are expressed differently, and that we are much more prone to drop tatemae and let our actual opinions emerge at a moment's notice. These Japanese are usually still reserved, and sometimes uncomfortable with the strange, chaotic mess of conflicting opinions, and oftentimes return to Japan with a sense of comfort in the Confucian ideal.

The other is the Japanese student that, after a period of culture shock (sometimes severe), completely drops tatemae altogether and embraces Western expression. These run the gamut (based on personality) from really laid-back to absolutely manic about assimilation. I knew one girl who "went native" and is beating frantically at getting American citizenship because she desperately wants to be an American, hates Japanese society and never wants to go back, but she's an extreme case. Most of those who get comfortable with Western expression make friends fast, learn to be vocal with their opinions, feel comfortable with others' opinions (even if they conflict), and often decide to stay and try to live and work in the U.S. (but not always get citizenship, as they still identify with Japan).

Making friends in Japan is going to be a lot of the former, because acting opinionated is going to burn a lot of bridges, even if you don't mean to do so. If you want to make friends, remember that everybody exists in a power-structure, and it helps if you figure out what your rank is and behave accordingly. Although you are gaijin and outside the system, it nevertheless helps to find a spot in the pecking order, because it helps them relate to you more effectively. And be patient.

And alcohol gives people free tickets to honesty. A lot of people become all honne when inebriated.

Keep in mind, however, that I'm speaking from a second-hand position and don't live (and haven't yet lived) in Japan, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

And alcohol gives people free tickets to honesty. A lot of people become all honne when inebriated.

Truer words have never been spoken.
Just tonight at a snaku a friend and I sang karoke and drank with a high-ranking police officer of my local ward. (We found out he was a cop during an arm wrestling competition; long story). When it was time to leave my friend attempted to help him into the waiting cab, and was promptly pushed aside as if they'd never met. My friend was quite annoyed at the sudden change in attitude but, as I tried to explain it to him, public face and private (drunken) face are two completely different things.

Generally speaking, the people you spend the most amount of time with in any culture are easier to consider as friends. When friendships are new and not as solidified by time gone by, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

I gained a lot of wisdom from this thread.
Thank you all who posted here in a constructive way. :beer1:
Now, I have more concrete questions.
Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are hospitalized?
Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are imprisoned?

 

[gaijinalways]

I would have to agree with a lot of people it takes time to make friends anywhere. Finding people with like interests and who can share time with you is difficult sometimes. The Japanese operate under different cultural rules, but one aspect of how long you'll be staying does seem to be a constant in a lot of the minds I have met. Though to be honest, you get this from foreigners here in Japan too sometimes.

 

[Pachipro]

Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are hospitalized?

Yes I do and probably have about three who would visit me if I were hospitalized, although I was never hospitalized, yet.

Do you have a Japanese friend who you think will visit you, if you are imprisoned?

If I were convicted in a court of law and sentenced, yes, I have a couple of friends who would even visit me in prison regardless of the charge, even if it were for murder. That's how close we are. However, if I were just arrested and no one knew where I was they could not possibly visit me as we are not allowed a phone call until we are charged or let go.

Real friends are like family. They stick with you regardless. I believe I have those types of friends in Japan and they have come through.

 

[Roboto-sama]

I'm pretty sure we all agree on this when I say there is no such thing as "true friends".

I'm probably going to get flamed for this.

 

[Charles Barkley]

You are pretty sure you all agree and you will get flamed? Good reasoning there champ.

 

[alantin]

Yeah!
I would like to hear the reasoning behind that too!

Why there is no such thing as "true friends" and what is the statement based on? You gotta agree, it is quite a thing to say about all the people of the planet!
And why would everybody here agree?

I take it you're going through some tough times, Roboto-sama.
I hope, you'll find some true friends if you don't feel you have them yet!