Are Japanese People Too Polite To Be Your Friends?

[FrustratedDave]

And once again Otenba, you are missing the whole point... sigh...

Megumi Kimoto is Japanese and she admits that she can't tell what most Japanese people are really feeling, so how do you think you can do it in the short time you have been here? So let me put it this way, no matter how socially fluent you are in your own country, you will still be a social retard when in Japan for a long time.

 

[Otenba]

My own country have been alot of countries and cultures so far, Dave. I'm not one of those nicely settled people who spend most of their life in one or 2 places with one or 2 social environments.
And as I said, it also depends on the kind of environment you seek in Japan.
And I still wouldn't see how it can all be summed up by pure politeness to go as much farther than smalltalk than some of my encounters went.

Btw, being Japanese or not, you get more and less socially/culturally/whatever skilled poeple everywhere. I may be "German" but I don't know when the National Holiday is, so much for the argument of being from a country and having to know all about it.
Some Japanese people, and I am by no means saying Megumi or KirinMan are two of them, who post here, may be retreatees/hikikomori/otaku, have poor social lifes or bad experiences and convey an image of Japan just as warped as mine is said to be. I as a German, would tell anyone who asks what the Germans are like: they're cold, strict, pessimist people who complain all the time, and they have the worst bullies. Coming from a German, raised in Germany, fluent at the language, it must be the absolute truth, right? Well, some German and non-German people would disagree with me, yet that is my truth about "my" country but I'd never dare calling someone a liar or a dummy for disagreeing based on their own experiences, no matter how long or short they've been to Germany.

 

[FrustratedDave]

My own country have been alot of countries and cultures so far, Dave. I'm not one of those nicely settled people who spend most of their life in one or 2 places with one or 2 social environments.
And as I said, it also depends on the kind of environment you seek in Japan.
And I still wouldn't see how it can all be summed up by pure politeness to go as much farther than smalltalk than some of my encounters went.

Thats it, you can't tell . You may well have had a genuine deep and meaningfull conversation with someone that you met and may have made a friend for life, but you won't know that for a long time. I have had people who I will friends keep their guard up for over 5 years before they trusted me enough to really open up and talk to me and we went out as a group quite regulary.

 

[Otenba]

And I've never denied what you're saying, all I deny is being what KirinMan is calling me: a liar, a blinded japanophile, a dummy, a pollution to his country etc.
I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.

 

[FrustratedDave]

And I've never denied what you're saying....

I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.

But that was not the way you came across.

 

[Otenba]

Maybe that's because on MY side, anyone I feel like I can get along with, is welcome to become a friend
Or let's put it even easier. For the people I know personally (met in real life), I make 3 boxes.
Love-box (very crowded)
Hate-box (very empty)
Don't give a damn-box (uber-crowded)
Most people I met in Japan and had some memorable moments with, are in the Love box, very few in the Hate box, and everyone I had no meaningful encounter with, goes in the DGAD box. What box people put me in is of course up to them, but from my side, Love and even some DGAD box people are always welcome to come live under my roof.

 

[KirinMan]

And I've never denied what you're saying, all I deny is being what KirinMan is calling me: a liar, a blinded japanophile, a dummy, a pollution to his country etc.
I never said I've made friends for life, all I said, and only I can know as Mr KirinMan the Great wasn't there with me, is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships.

Originally Posted by Frustrated Dave But that was not the way you came across.

Dave you are being quite the gentleman thank you.

I will have to say that trying to "talk" with Otenba is a lesson in :banghead: against a wall. It has finally dawned upon me that it comes from immaturity, insecurity and youthfullness that these comments come spewing forth.

Every little comment made in reply gets a finger nail scratching on the black board reply, however any comment that she makes must be taken at face value.

Further proof is not respecting the comments made by Japanese members of the board who tried to tell her in their own polite way that she was wrong.

I like the comment she made here at the end...is that I've had a good start for POSSIBLE friendships. If she would have said that in the first place much of her about what I wrote could have been avoided.

 

[KirinMan]

Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people's feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).
In that sense I am probably a ﾂ"social regard.ﾂ" Even though I am a Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That's why I like a frank, outspoken environment. This is only my personal preference, and I am not saying one culture is better than the other. And my personal preference is shaped by my limited experience, which is not definite, and can change in future.
I learn a lot by hearing other people's experiences.

Megumi Great post and I for one hope that Otenba gets this. I have serious doubts though.
Might I add here Megumi that being able to read a persons feelings has absolutely nothing to do with one's intelligence or lack of intelligence either for that matter.

I know plenty of "smart" people that are social doorknobs and plenty of so called "dumb" people that have more sense and are more sensitive towards peoples feelings and emotions than a Doctor.

The part that Otenba is going to miss in this post here is that as a Japanese person you are being very polite and trying to educate her that things are not so black and white as she thinks. It's a shame that she didnt get it.

 

[KirinMan]

"Social retard" was quite harsh and I apologize. KirinMan's unimaginable arrogance and passion to insult people just doesn't make my mood any better and I say things I don't mean.

Finally Otenba here.... Firstly you really need to look at the order of things here. Just a reminder I replied to your social retard comment after you wrote it.

Dont give me the credit for your misdirected anger, if you had thought about the comment before writing it there would have been no reply.

Btw @ Mods & Admins
I noticed that accusing people of lying is

Straight here this time. Grow up, noone called you a liar, just questioned the accuracy of what you were writing. Learn the difference. If I am going to call you a liar I will do it straight, I havent yet. The word liar comes too easily from your lips, I wonder if you actually know what it means. Ok now I await the dictionary definition sure to come....

I'm curious what that might be in your allmighty, absolute, globally accurate and undisputable opinion which represents the absolute truth of the earth, oh KirinMan-sama, reincarnation of Jesus and the 10 Commandments, word of God the allknowing

Damn straight and dont you forget it!

Otenba I am going to give you some free advice here, get the chip off your shoulder and learn to read what people are writing and stop taking things so personally. It is painfully obvious that you dont realize it. You take everything someone writes here against you as a personal attack upon you, when you also fail to read the sarcasm included in the posts.

That tells me about your social immaturity. If you were to read the reply I made to you, the one you, in great detail replied to, you would have seen that it was just written to make a point but no you took it as an attack upon you.

Otenba you are also quick to point fingers at others for your misunderstanding of what was written, yet you fail to point a finger at yourself when you are wrong or mistaken. You also do not reply to direct questions placed to you that put you in a difficult position that you can not make a reply to because it would call into question your overall responses in a thread. Not talking about here. But I use that as a further example of your coming across to me as being naeve.

Chill Otenba this is an internet forum, try to remember that.

 

[alantin]

How about getting back to the topic..

My previous question went unnoticed because of this.. exchange.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

You can find the report icon.....
...

Pipokun, thanks. I could not find the button to stop people from flaming, because I was reading the thread without logging in
Otenba, you do not have to apologize to me, because I did not find your comment offensive at all. On the contrary, I share similar feelings with you.

 

[KirinMan]

My previous question went unnoticed because of this.. exchange.

Well let me take a crack at this one from personal experience, I take it this is the question you are refering to here?

Thinking like this also springs forth the following question: Would a foreigner easily be thought of as a non-potential friend because he is expected to go back home soon anyway..

Any thoughts on this?

In one of my previous jobs working as a contracted employee for a major well known Japanese company I actually had a fellow employee ask me; "Why should I spend any time or energy in getting to know you? You are only going to be here for a few years anyway?"

It was a rude thing to say, or so I thought so at first, but after discussing it with other friends and co-workers I came to the realization that the guy who said it was being truly honest with me. He wasnt meaning to be rude, but was being straight in asking me why should he have to put energy into a temporary relationship.

He wasnt saying he couldnt work with me, he wasnt saying he was not going to be polite, in fact he was and is a really nice guy. He just didnt feel comfortable as I found out from him later, about wanting to get to know someone as a friend and then have them disappear. He had that experience with a number of other foreign employees as well.

I was shocked at first, but in the long run it gave me much to consider in my relationships with other Japanese people. Was I willing to put the energy into being a friend as well. It's a two way street, and I thanked him a while afterwards for being honest with me about his feelings. We still stay in touch today.

So I dont know about others here, but I also think that the same could be said of people from any country.

 

[alantin]

@KirinMan

Thanks for sharing that! It really gave me something to think about.
I wonder if many people have similar experiences. It is interesting a Japanese person would come out with it so boldly, but then again. Perhaps it wasn't considered bold at all. A matter of fact kind of thing.. I have heard of many instances of a foreigner taking offense in something that wasn't intended to be offending at all.

It kind of sheds some perspective to how a japanese person would perceive a friend if it's not worth the effort to befriend a person that will be around for "only" a few years.

Still it also contributes to the uchi - soto concept making it even harder for a gaijin to get to the circles.

 

[FrustratedDave]

@KirinMan

It kind of sheds some perspective to how a japanese person would perceive a friend if it's not worth the effort to befriend a person that will be around for "only" a few years.

Still it also contributes to the uchi - soto concept making it even harder for a gaijin to get to the circles.

To add to Kirinman's post, I have found that most who want to be your friends are looking for something from you like a chance to speak english or something else. Of corse you can't say that everyone is looking for something, but I have found it to be very common.(the same can be said for any country I guess)

I have had people who have been introduced to me and insist on speaking english to me, but in the end I can't handle it and turn to Japanese. (you just can't have a meaning full conversation with someone who has the english skills of a kindergarten child) I have never seen people become that disinterested in me so fast. (I have met a few Japanese american expats, which of corse have great english. But converstations with them end up a jumbled mix of Japanese and english b/c some words just can't be replaced and it is easier speak the original word. It must be really funny to listen to conversations like that). But this is also another reason why it is hard for foreigners to become friends with Japanese, b/c most times their language skills are just not up to a deep and meaning full conversation. Which also leads to the fact that most foreigners don't have a real understanding of this culture ,so in the end people just don't give the person the support they are looking for.

 

[KirinMan]

I have had people who have been introduced to me and insist on speaking english to me, but in the end I can't handle it and turn to Japanese. (you just can't have a meaning full conversation with someone who has the english skills of a kindergarten child) I have never seen people become that disinterested in me so fast.

Dave.....ok first the pic, then the comment.
Damn the link didnt work....but anyway you hit the nail on the head.

Seriously now, I can relate to this in so many different ways. I have had people get down right fussy because I switched to Japanese to reply to them because their level of English was like you said a Kindergartener's but they thought they were able to understand what was being discussed and in the end things got screwed up because of their poor English abilities.

However I got the blame for their incompetence. Go figure. Just another example of some Japanese and their insistence of never being wrong, and the desire to protect their own image at whatever the cost.


Side note, off topic a bit reply here too.....
I will wait until they are both gone to heaven, God bless their souls, but I have some stories about my in-laws and this topic that I will someday openly discuss. Needless to say they are "out" there. In the future, in the future.....

 

[FrustratedDave]

Dave.....ok first the pic, then the comment.
Damn the link didnt work....but anyway you hit the nail on the head.

LOL, good one!

Seriously now, I can relate to this in so many different ways. I have had people get down right fussy because I switched to Japanese to reply to them because their level of English was like you said a Kindergartener's but they thought they were able to understand what was being discussed and in the end things got screwed up because of their poor English abilities.
However I got the blame for their incompetence. Go figure. Just another example of some Japanese and their insistence of never being wrong, and the desire to protect their own image at whatever the cost.

It doesn't really bother me anymore as I am sure it does not bother you either. So many times have been in a book store and someone will come up to me and start asking me questions in english. I will entertain this for a few minutes, but in the end I just politely say to them that I have to go b/c I forgot something or something to that effect. It is a bit of a pain b/c then I have to go down the road about half a mile to the next book store.LOL

 

[alantin]

LOL, good one!
It doesn't really bother me anymore as I am sure it does not bother you either. So many times have been in a book store and someone will come up to me and start asking me questions in english. I will entertain this for a few minutes, but in the end I just politely say to them that I have to go b/c I forgot something or something to that effect. It is a bit of a pain b/c then I have to go down the road about half a mile to the next book store.LOL

There is a good solution for this!

"Sumimasen ga eigo ha wakarimasen.."

 

[becki_kanou]

There is a good solution for this!

"Sumimasen ga eigo ha wakarimasen.."

Hard to pull off when you've got an English book right in your hand though...

Anyway, to get back on topic, my experience has been that Japanese people, like any people, just take time to get to know. Perhaps it takes a little longer to get to know someone than in other countries, perhaps not. Of course if you're new to Japan or don't know the language well it will take even longer.

For people who are new to Japan, sinnce many of the people who will approach you wanting to interact with you (and I'm assuming an English speaker here) will just be people seeking free English lessons, it's easy to get burnt-out on superficial friendships. However if your friendships are based on an interest you share, or some personality trait that you have in common you can have a deep and lasting relationship with someone just as easily as in your home-country.

I think someone else mentioned it before, but for me, I specifically avoided people who were interested in me as "the English-speaking foreigner" and made friends with non-English speakers who shared my hobbies and so consequently were interested in me as a person. To this day most of my good friends are just people who I happened to strike up conversations with at local restaurants and one of them has even become my business partner and visited my family in the US.

Of course, I have plenty of politeness only "nod-and-exchange-greetings, maybe-go-out-for-tea-sometimes" Japanese friends, but also quite a few deep, meaningful relationships, including my wonderful Japanese husband.

So my answer to the thread's main question is a big "No".

 

[Hezam]

i have one japanese friend and he is very very friendly and kind man.but it's really hard to make japanese friends ! i dont know why !! i was search on the web but i couldnt find even one !

 

[KirinMan]

i have one japanese friend and he is very very friendly and kind man.but it's really hard to make japanese friends ! i dont know why !! i was search on the web but i couldnt find even one !

There is a very good reason for this. And I wish all the people looking around the internet for Japanese friends would keep this in mind as well.

Find a Japanese site like Mixi. Dont take this wrong but here is something for you to consider. The language here in Japan is Japanese not English.

Oh and what do you mean by "friend". You can make plenty of friends here, they all arent Japanese, but we live in Japan.

 

[Hezam]

The language here in Japan is Japanese not English.

lol that makes me laugh and i like it,good comment

Oh and what do you mean by "friend". You can make plenty of friends here, they all arent Japanese, but we live in Japan.

well i will tell you something,here in Arabic world all Arab people respect japanese very much,they belive that japanese people has a great culture and high nobility of character and this nobility of character is the same with Arab,we know about japanese that they are truthful,faithful,carry out if they promise,...etc.
So they surely can be trusted..and i will be proud if i have japanese friends.
Hezam

 

[Otenba]

So they surely can be trusted

Yes Hezam, and there are those who abuse that reputation in order to cheat and deceive you in whichever way possible. Applicable to both cultures and anyone who mastered the art of lying with a straight face. I mean, THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honesty.
Same goes for Arabian culture. I went shopping in Ramallah (big mistake). I asked the shopkeeper of a decent-looking supermarket whether that Narnia DVD, in Palestinian stores before being released in European theaters, is a legal copy. It obviously wasn't but it was fun to see him try anyways. "Yes, Madam, oh yes! YES! COME SEE MY SHOP!". Disc: DVD-RW with marker writing. Cover: bent. Cover sleeve: home printer that was running out of ink. Film: you see the crowd rise in front of the big screen towards the end credits.....

There goes your honest culture.

 

[FrustratedDave]

.... I mean, THE daily (harmless) lie is "Moshiwakegozaimasen" & 97 bows when something's out of stock. Does a part-time girl really (need to) feel sorry or guilty that some unknown author's stupid book is sold out the day some dude wants it? Does she really think she is to blame? There goes the honesty.

I thought you were just misinformed, but you really do know jack s**t about Japan don't you.

Actually, it could be good for you once and a while to get out of that buble of yours and experience the world. It is not that hard .... really.

 

[Otenba]

Oh I see, so those apologies are most sincere and those shop assistents cry themselves to sleep when a customer couldn't find what they came looking for 20 years after release. Interesting.

 

[becki_kanou]

Of course they're not sincerely crushed about being out of stock on some product, but it's their JOB to be polite to the customer. It has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty; it's just good customer service.