Are Japanese People Too Polite To Be Your Friends?

[caster51]

I suspect one out of every 25 people is a double-tongued, double-faced sociopath, as Martha Stout says.
But the rest are honest

A hedge between keeps friendship green
Manners know distance
Politeness is not just for strangers

 

[Pachipro]

Once one understands the culture and the reason for "the face they show to strangers and aquaintances" and "the face they show to their friends and family" one understands that the politness the Japanese show you at the outset is just a formality and nothing more. Even if they despise you and dislike you, in company, or when first meeting you, they will usually be polite to you.

I have witnessed many times, including my own wife, the politness she showed people/neighbors whom I know she dispised and disliked and said neighbor/person also responded in kind. When questioned, she said that it was a formality and was to keep the harmony and to not cause any trouble.

I always found it amusing and still do. For myself, when in Japan I do as the Japanese do and respect the culture and respond with kindness and politness even to those I dislike or feel I do not have a rapport with. Therefore, when I meet Japanese people for the first time I understand that their politness is more out of formality than whether they really like me or not.

During my early years in Japan I really got to understand this first hand when still learning the language. A female friend of a female friend whom I used to talk with now and then on the phone became a little miffed one day when I was using polite Japanese instead of the informal speech we used to speak when we were all together. (I mistakenly thought I should use the polite form) She said, in Japanese, something to the effect of, "Is anything wrong? Are you angry at me? " When I said that "No, nothing is wrong and I am not angry at you", She replied with, "Am I not your friend? Why are you speaking so politely then?" The phone call was "cold" after that and soon ended with me being a little perplexed.

Later my female friend explained it fully to me. It was then that I fully understood where she was coming from and learned the proper way when one should use the polite form of the language and when one should use the informal language and with whom.

However, the politness of the Japanese does not make it any harder for me to make friends nor does it hinder us becoming friends because I understand it. When two people "hit it off" the feeling is mutual and the formal speech and politness soon goes by the wayside. I have quite a few "real" friends in Japan and it had nothing to do with their politness in the beginning once I understood it.

On the other hand, I can understand how some foreigners not very familiar with this part of the culture can become miffed and think the Japanese are superficial and feigning politness when they mistakingly think a friendship has been sparked.

 

[Otenba]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person?

While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, it's also, fundamentally, interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

Being kind and polite to everyone, even to those one dislikes, is being practiced around the world in the service industry. People in some professions must control their facial expressions because they are paid to be nice.
Japanese people, including me, are trained to perform as if working in the service industry. It may create harmony, but it also causes emotional fatigue.
I feel this invisible social pressure to keep harmony is too heavy in Japan. And harmony is tension-filled.

 

[KirinMan]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person?
While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, it's also, fundamentally, interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.

Otenba how long were you in Japan?

 

[Otenba]

I bet that if I replied anything less than 10 years, you'll tell me I've been fooled, they all actually hate me and so on, but with human interaction it's not a question of "how long" but of "how intense" and if you have a gift of "reading the air"/"kuuki wo yomeru" (don't even know any non-Japanese expressions for this), I think that's worth more when dealing with people you've personally spent time with than what a stranger will tell you about a country's population in general.

 

[KirinMan]

I bet that if I replied anything less than 10 years, you'll tell me I've been fooled, they all actually hate me and so on, but with human interaction it's not a question of "how long" but of "how intense" and if you have a gift of "reading the air"/"kuuki wo yomeru" (don't even know any non-Japanese expressions for this), I think that's worth more when dealing with people you've personally spent time with than what a stranger will tell you about a country's population in general.

Well, how long......?

Oh, and you don't want to get into a discussion about intense or not intense either. There are plenty of people here that have had "intense" times here that would probably make yours seem like a picnic in the park. I would recommend you don't go there.

 

[alantin]

I wonder what you are after and how your comment is supposed to benefit this discussion..

She has a point in that one should not make generalizations about these things.
Interpersonal relationships ought to be weighted on case by case basis.
Still. The concept of preserving WA or harmony is very deeply rooted in Asian cultures. Not just Japan and should not be taken lightly either.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I really agree with Frustrated Dave and Pachipro here. The Japanese way is almost opposite in some ways to the Western way. In the West, if you don't like someone you show your dislike right up front. Then after you've befriended someone it's at that point in time that you open up and become a little more cheerful.

The Japanese politeness veil isn't even that exclusively Japanese. Anyone who's worked anywhere busy in the West, especially in a sales or office environment, knows that people are constantly saying stuff like 'Oh you like X too? Let's go Xing sometime', and of course that never materializes and it'd be almost akward to call them out on it and be like 'So we never got around to hanging out, when's good for you?' because both parties know it was just a formality. Is it so different?

It's not that Japanese people necessarily become 'colder' as you get to know them either, but because that veil of politeness and formality eventually comes down the later parts of a friendship probably seem quite different to that initial burst of cheerful politeness even though relations are progressing.

As pointed out in Pachipro's post, reverting back to the politeness at the wrong time can signal a regression in familiarity back to that formal, 'I don't want to be close to you' phase and being polite can be taken out of context as a form of distancing or breaking-off.

At the bottom of it all, people are people, and if you've displayed sincerety and consistency you can befriend anyone, provided that person doesn't have prejudice as their barrier (which can happen in any country).

 

[FrustratedDave]

Then what if the polite speech IS dropped after a short while, by the Japanese person?

Just because the polite speech is dropped does not mean that you are on the way to being friends with that person. Politeness does not end in speech. I think you will be aware of "honne and Tatemae", most people will not reveal what they are really thinking. Instead, they will talk with you about assorted things dancing around what they really think, all the while they are judging you by your comments and reactions. And foreigners are very, very easy to read, but on the other end of the stick, foreigners will find it almost next to impossible to read whether someone is telling you what they are really thinking or just a few "safe" ideas and concepts that won't get them judged in any way.

While yes, there are (big) cultural differences between Japanese and others, I think one should not only see the "Japaneseness" of their behavior but also keep in mind that no matter who it is, they're still human and human Japanese people have more words, manners, feelings and gestures than the "Japanese repertoire". I mean, eg. individual things like let's say a vulgar Japanese dude compared to a high-society little Japanese Miss Princess. Reasons for being polite aren't ALL for sakes of harmony or making good impressions, some are simply naturally more polite than others.
So it's not only a matter of Japanese/foreigner interaction, but it's also, fundamentally, the interaction of 2 human individuals and not all encounters can be measured by the same standards.

Yes, Japanese are human, but you can't expect the same reactions that you would get from people in your home country where you have grown up. People have feelings and emotions all the same all over the world, but they are defined by how they express them. And the general majority will always take the "safe" route when talking to people who they do not have absolute complete trust in.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

Just because the polite speech is dropped does not mean that you are on the way to being friends with that person. Politeness does not end in speech. I think you will be aware of "honne and Tatemae", most people will not reveal what they are really thinking. Instead, they will talk with you about assorted things dancing around what they really think, all the while they are judging you by your comments and reactions. And foreigners are very, very easy to read, but on the other end of the stick, foreigners will find it almost next to impossible to read whether someone is telling you what they are really thinking or just a few "safe" ideas and concepts that won't get them judged in any way.

I agree.
Japanese people play "safe" because it is more important for Japanese people to be accepted by others.
Correct me if wrong, but in the Western culture, even if you are disliked and rejected by everybody else on earth, you are still loved by God, right?
In Japan, if you are rejected by society, you lose your reason to exist.

 

[Otenba]

I never said that the Japanese frankly say what they think but it takes a retard on the foreigner's side or one hell of an actor on the Japanese's side to not notice blatant differences between what they're saying and what they're thinking. I can tell when the other person is thinking that I might as well drop dead, no matter how nice they're acting on the outside and no matter how nice the smalltalk seems to be.

 

[pipokun]

I agree.
Japanese people play "safe" because it is more important for Japanese people to be accepted by others.
Correct me if wrong, but in the Western culture, even if you are disliked and rejected by everybody else on earth, you are still loved by God, right?
In Japan, if you are rejected by society, you lose your reason to exist.

Just take a look at the over 100 year old book by the French sociologist, Emile Durkheim, still giving us much insight about the Western and suicide as what you might call, though I don't know what you mean by the Western culture.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I never said that the Japanese frankly say what they think but it takes a retard on the foreigner's side or one hell of an actor on the Japanese's side to not notice blatant differences between what they're saying and what they're thinking. I can tell when the other person is thinking that I might as well drop dead, no matter how nice they're acting on the outside and no matter how nice the small talk seems to be.

I guarantee that you can't tell when a Japanese is telling you something that they want you to hear in the time that you have spent here. If you believe your own words then you are in for a really big shock or drop dead as you put it. I will say again, you have not been listening to other members, have you? It does not end in small talk by any means.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

I agree that racial stereotyping is a bad / generalization of people is harmful / a human relationship is on a one-to-one basis/people are the same deep down everywhere.
What I want to discuss here are cultural norms. I feel strongly about it, after living in the United States for a few years. At college, American students address professors as if they were friends, like, "Hi, Andrew, I have a question…" I was amazed. If I do that in Japan, the Japanese professor would think I am arrogant.
I personally prefer American/Filipino/Indian ways of social interaction to the Japanese one, because it is so much simpler.

 

[Otenba]

I guarantee that you can't tell when a Japanese is telling you something that they want you to hear in the time that you have spent here.

(never said it ends in small talk)
I'm not really talking about WHAT people tell me, but about what they "smell" like. I can love someone to death and still tell them what they wanna hear (I'm in a film school, do you have any idea how many suckage movies I had to praise because my friends made them?), this is not what I meant. If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself: small talk isn't enough for that. It's more of a matter of "kuuki wo yomeru", too lazy to translate this. People who talk all hearts and flowers and still radiate a ****** "kuuki" can say whatever they want, I'll know they hate me anyway.

@megumi
Oh, you should come to Belgium. We greet our favourite teachers with hugs and kisses (does depend on the school, St Lukas BXL will allow anything non-violent..)

 

[pipokun]

It was the US who firstly sold (systematized) employee's emotion as a product in the service sector. Probably C. Marx would be surprised to see that human emotions such as smile as well as Hello Kitty's unemotional face are products to sell from the hell.

So your experiences were the ones at a college in the US and the encounter with an Indian guy in Japan. Am I correct?

 

[Ava-from-wonderland]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but i`ll anyway say my opinion.
I think japanese are not harder or easier to make friends with.
Of course it debends a lot, every japanese is of course a individual.
But i am trying to say is, that japanese just make friends with their own way. They do not "get so close" with their friends and tell them their deebest secrets, but that does not mean that they are not friends..
It`s just their way being friends, american way is different, european way is different, but it`s not better or worser than any other way.

 

[alantin]

What I want to discuss here are cultural norms. I feel strongly about it, after living in the United States for a few years. At college, American students address professors as if they were friends, like, "Hi, Andrew, I have a question…" I was amazed. If I do that in Japan, the Japanese professor would think I am arrogant.

If a Finnish student were to call his teacher, in Finnish, say.. Mr Smith, He would sound like a retard. Even arrogant! I sound too official!
I still find it weird to attach titles to names as is normal when speaking English and even more so in Japanese!

That's cultural differences for you!

 

[alantin]

They do not "get so close" with their friends and tell them their deebest secrets, but that does not mean that they are not friends..

Well.. They certainly don't let you close at first but I've been told that once they do, you have a true friend for a lifetime.

I'm not sure if this has come up already or not, but doesn't this "not letting people close easily" come from a little different idea of what a friend is, that they have in Asian cultures as opposed to western ones.

As all relatives and friends, one has, form a complex network of people to whom he is indebted to and who are indebted to him, they are hesitant to add people to this network and want to make sure the new guy is worthy before "letting him close".

So a friend is not just someone you have great time together. He is someone who you can rely to and ask for favors and who can ask favors from you.

Japan being an old rice farming society, the people are used to different kind of dependency of each other than westerners traditionally are and it has it's implications to this also.

Or have I gotten it dead wrong? ^^;


Thinking like this also springs forth the following question: Would a foreigner easily be thought of as a non-potential friend because he is expected to go back home soon anyway..

Any thoughts on this?

 

[FrustratedDave]

(never said it ends in small talk)
I'm not really talking about WHAT people tell me, but about what they "smell" like. I can love someone to death and still tell them what they wanna hear (I'm in a film school, do you have any idea how many suckage movies I had to praise because my friends made them?), this is not what I meant. If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself: small talk isn't enough for that. It's more of a matter of "kuuki wo yomeru", too lazy to translate this. People who talk all hearts and flowers and still radiate a ****** "kuuki" can say whatever they want, I'll know they hate me anyway.

But, what I have been trying to tell you is that Japan is a whole different ball game, even if you are the greatest people reader in your own country you will have a lot of difficulties reading someone's emotions here. "kuuki wo yomeru" is definitely important, but you are kidding yourself if think you can perform this in such a short time that you have been here.

I remember when I had been here for about 5 years, I thought my Japanese speaking skill was almost perfect, I thought I could understand everyone and what they were saying without any misunderstandings. Boy was I wrong, for each year that I am here, I feel like I have taken another step backwards. The reality is that I have actually moved forward in the total understanding of Japanese as a language and Japanese people, but the more I learn the more I realize what I don't know. Now you can take this with a grain of salt and keep on thinking that you are right in your judgment of "kuuki wo yomeru" and keep believing what you want to, but I am only saying this for your sake and I hope it is not a case of " A little information is dangerous" adage. I wish someone would have told me earlier.

 

[KirinMan]

" A little information is dangerous" adage. I wish someone would have told me earlier.

I was told by a rather nice person one day that things would be so much easier for me here not knowing Japanese, however because of my personality I couldnt imagine happening and for a while things became infinitely harder and more frustrating living here in Japan because as I not only learned the language but also understood what wasnt being said.

Ignorance is bliss pops into mind, and depending upon the situation, many Japanese people's level of comfort changes dramatically along with the level of understanding of the language. Expectations also change as well.

I truly doubt that any short term resident or visitor to Japan would ever be able to get to that level of familiarness with any Japanese person in a personal or professional relationship.

 

[KirinMan]

If you're not a social retard, you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, and as you said yourself:

After reading this line I really have a hard time imaging that you have ever been here to Japan AND had any kind of meaningful intercourse with any Japanese person beyond the "I'm fine, thank you! And you!"

Let me guess, everyone, smiling and being polite, that can mean one of two things here; (Actually there are plenty of other meanings as well, I just choose two from either end of the spectrum)

1. I'm smiling and polite because you are a foreigner and I want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about coming to Japan.

2. I'm smiling and polite but actually, I'd love to rip your face off for coming here to my country and polluting it with your presence.

Or my personal favorite; (Added as an extra here for サ－ビス )
Plus @....I'm smiling and polite but actually I have a combination of PMS, the flu, and would love to be at home in bed asleep but I came out of my misery to see the goofy foreigner who wants to be the next male/femaleJohn Blackthorne wannabe. Or any equivalent Japanophile.



Don't know if you caught the sarcasm in my reply so to explain it better for you so there is no misunderstanding on your part, to assume that someone is a social retard if they can't you should be able to feel a person's attitude towards you, tells me a lot about the type of people that you interacted with here during your short visit.

 

[Megumi Kimoto]

Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people's feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).
In that sense, I am probably "social regard." Even though I am Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That's why I like a frank, outspoken environment. This is only my personal preference, and I am not saying one culture is better than the other. And my personal preference is shaped by my limited experience, which is not definite and can change in future.
I learn a lot from hearing other people's experiences.

 

[Otenba]

@Megumi Kimoto

Some people are intuitive and may be able to sense other people's feelings accurately (i.e., high EQ).

That's what I'm trying to say but KirinMan prefers being offensive, sarcastic and accusing me of lying and other things.

@KirinMan

the type of people that you interacted with

I'm curious what that might be in your allmighty, absolute, globally accurate and undisputable opinion which represents the absolute truth of the earth, oh KirinMan-sama, reincarnation of Jesus and the 10 Commandments, word of God the allknowing!

1. I'm smiling and polite because you are a foreigner and I want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy about coming to Japan.

That doesn't require you to actually run after me to drag me off and spend half a day and half your money with/on me and make a bad impression on your fellow countrymen when I didn't ask you to.

2. I'm smiling and polite but actually I'd love to rip your face off for coming here to my country and polluting it with your prescence.

If you're actually calling my presence pollution, I demand you take it back. Unlike even some permanent residents (especially in Yokosuka) I've met there, I apply Japanese rules and manners and don't do anything that might offend or annoy anyone. This forum isn't Japan, so please don't think I'm being the same in Japan as on this forum. One reason would be: in Japan, unlike on an internet forum, nobody dares be so rude and offensive to someone who wronged nobody, as you are to me. You meet me with rudeness, I respond accordingly. Japanese people in Japan never met me with rudeness, I never responded rudely. Easy.

I have a combination of PMS, the flu, and would love to be at home in bed asleep but I came out of my misery to see the goofy foreigner who wants to be the next male/femaleJohn Blackthorne wannabe

Oh interesting, I didn't know men can have PMS. On the other hand, men who defend sex offenders can't morally be called real men anyways so maybe you do have PMS-like episodes
Btw, a Japanophile in my opinion, is someone who comes to Japan, expects all entertainment-made images of Japan to reflect reality, behaves very un-Japanese aka not respecting Japanese rules, manners and gestures, much less speaking the language beyond tourist level, and trying to find the Japan as shown in manga and jidaigeki.

had any kind of meaningful intercourse with any Japanese person beyond the "I'm fine thank you! And you!"

I was surprised what some Japanese people would tell you aloud and in a crowded place once they feel at ease.

@Megumi Kimoto

In that sense I am probably a "social regard." Even though I am a Japanese, I always have a hard time figuring out what the other Japanese person is really feeling. That's why I like a frank, outspoken environment.

"Social retard" was quite harsh and I apologize. KirinMan's unimaginable arrogance and passion to insult people just doesn't make my mood any better and I say things I don't mean.
But just like you, I like a frank and outspoken environment, and unlike KirinMan violently tries to establish as the one and only truth, such environments also exist in Japan, you just have to know where to look for them.

Btw @ Mods & Admins
I noticed that accusing people of lying is tolerated and words like sh*t are punishable by bans and restrictions, however please know that vulgar vocabulary isn't the only offensive form of speech. Accusing someone of lying in situations other than getting oneself or a friend out of trouble, is an unimaginably horrible insult to any person who takes pride in being honest.

@Frustrated Dave

Now you can take this with a grain of salt and keep on thinking that you are right in you judgment of "kuuki wo yomeru" and keep believeing what you want to

I never said yomeruing the kuuki (god lol gimme a translation please!) is enough to know it all, but up until now it has given me a good overall feeling of whether or not I was welcome. Whether they loved me to death or just found me okay, can't tell for sure, but while I'm not a Japan-expert and never claimed to be, I also rigorously and rightfully refuse to accept being called a total blinded idiot by knowitalls such as KirinMan.