Another story about Japanese Police and foreigners...

[mad pierrot]

Well, with all the bubbub that goes on here concerning the treatment of gaijin in Japan by the local law enforcement agencies, I though I'd add some fuel to the fire.

Check out this http://www.seekjapan.jp/page1.php?id=556


Sounds like this guy was getting a pretty raw deal.



Comments?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

After reading his story, I didn't get the imression that his "being a gaijin" had anything to do with much of anything. The same rules, such as they are, apply to Japanese nationals, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Mike Cash]

I have to agree totally with Mikawa Ossan on this.

This just goes to illustrate how the average foreigner in Japan can go along for years/decades blissfully unaware of some very basic facts regarding Japanese civics.

 

[DoctorP]

You know...as I was reading this, the only thing I saw that was done wrong was when he reached in and pushed the guy. Why didn't he just walk away?

 

[mad pierrot]

Hmmmm....


You don't think he would've been treated any different if he was Japanese? Or are Japanese police universally this bad to all people accused of pushing someone?

 

[DoctorP]

Well...I don't think that most people would have gone out of their way to push him! The guy is supposed to be a professional...why did he choose that coarse of action? I think that once the complaint was made that the police did what they always do...follow up on it. Do I think they over acted? Possibly, but I still think that he created this whole situation himself!

 

[Mike Cash]

Hmmmm....
You don't think he would've been treated any different if he was Japanese? Or are Japanese police universally this bad to all people accused of pushing someone?

I don't think he would have been treated as well had he been Japanese.

And by the fellow's own account, it's a clear case of assault.

You have to be an idiot to strike the first blow. Foreigners doubly so, since trouble with the law can complicate our lives far more than it can those of people who don't face the possibility of deportation.

 

[mad pierrot]

I don't doubt his pushing that nut away from him was a smart move. Pretty stupid to do anywhere. But you think the police would have treated him worse if he was Japanese? I would be inclined to think the opposite, judging from the way the police telling him if he was Chinese, they'd lock him up.

Further more, are the police in the standard practice now of detaining interrogating and people with no evidence? So, if I went to the police and accused my Japanese neighbor of pushing me, would the police follow suit and take my neighbor into custody, just like that? I think the police here would A) laugh at me, B) not take me seriously, or C) go to my neighbors house, ask some questions, and then not do anything.

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

It is "a driver's license book renewal" "receipt "record of an accident" of an international driver's license book" that I went to a police station
Because I am weak in English, the contents which he talks about cannot understand me.
Why was it demanded consolation money from a yakuza?:?
Did a yakuza step on feces of a dog?
Why did the police investigate him?

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't doubt his pushing that nut away from him was a smart move. Pretty stupid to do anywhere. But you think the police would have treated him worse if he was Japanese?

I've read numerous books targetted at the Japanese public regarding the Japanese criminal justice system. Written by cops, felons, and prison guards. My opinion is that a Japanese person would not have been treated more favorably. Remember: Just because one is getting treated like crap by members of another race is no reason to assume racism is behind it.

I would be inclined to think the opposite, judging from the way the police telling him if he was Chinese, they'd lock him up.

That's a mighty slim foundation to base an opinion on.

1. Why did he say "insinuate"?
2. Even if clearly stated, why would he assume everything they're telling him is true?
3. We're seeing only one side of a story, presented by an overwhelmed fellow with a deficient understanding of this aspect of Japanese society and with a vested interest in making himself look good.

Further more, are the police in the standard practice now of detaining interrogating and people with no evidence?

Correct my memory if it is mistaken....but aren't you the one who asked me for some recommended reading material on this subject several months ago?

What happened to the guy was almost certainly what is known as 窶戮ﾋ?凪?慊ｯﾂ行, meaning essentially that he accompanied the police of his own free will, though he almost certainly didn't know it and didn't think he did.

The other fellow filed a criminal complaint. Would you have the police not take any action on it at all?

So, if I went to the police and accused my Japanese neighbor of pushing me, would the police follow suit and take my neighbor into custody, just like that? I think the police here would A) laugh at me, B) not take me seriously, or C) go to my neighbors house, ask some questions, and then not do anything.

It is very likely that they would not do anything. Foreigners often complain that they went to the Japanese police and nothing was done.

Wanna know why?

Because foreigners go in and verbally complain and expect action to be taken on that alone. The police are a bureacracy; they move on paperwork. Japanese who expect something to be done know to request and fill out a 窶敕ｭﾅ?Q窶愿債出. This brings action, or at least the appearance of it. Foreigners don't know they need to make a formal written complaint and the cops very often aren't going to volunteer that little tidbit of information and create work for themselves. As long as you go in and complain verbally and then get up and leave....no official report of a crime exists and no investigation is called for.

 

[mad pierrot]

I've read numerous books targetted at the Japanese public regarding the Japanese criminal justice system. Written by cops, felons, and prison guards. My opinion is that a Japanese person would not have been treated more favorably. Remember: Just because one is getting treated like crap by members of another race is no reason to assume racism is behind it.

Of course! Actually, after having read Mika's post, I felt I would be in a losing position to try and argue in this guy's defense. But I'm still gonna try.

What the hell? It would be boring if I just agreed with you. Heh.

That's a mighty slim foundation to base an opinion on.

1. Why did he say "insinuate"?
2. Even if clearly stated, why would he assume everything they're telling him is true?
3. We're seeing only one side of a story, presented by an overwhelmed fellow with a deficient understanding of this aspect of Japanese society and with a vested interest in making himself look good.

To add to 3, his bragging about how long he's been in Japan instantly caught my attention. Reminded me about your words about comparing length of time in Japan to comparing penis size....

Correct my memory if it is mistaken....but aren't you the one who asked me for some recommended reading material on this subject several months ago?

Wow, yes, glad you remembered that. I still have those book titles scribbled down. Man, sharp memory. That had to have been at least last fall.

Because foreigners go in and verbally complain and expect action to be taken on that alone. The police are a bureacracy; they move on paperwork. Japanese who expect something to be done know to request and fill out a 窶敕ｭﾅ?Q窶愿債出. This brings action, or at least the appearance of it. Foreigners don't know they need to make a formal written complaint and the cops very often aren't going to volunteer that little tidbit of information and create work for themselves. As long as you go in and complain verbally and then get up and leave....no official report of a crime exists and no investigation is called for.

That was genuinely interesting. Just the kind of thing I wanna hear about in these kinds of discussions.

Questions:

1) Have you ever filed a 窶敕ｭﾅ?Q窶愿債出?
2) Was it effective?

and....

3) Why do you think people like our illustrious author write articles like this? Attention? Because people like to complain about something?

I'd be more interested on hearing your thoughts on 3.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Actually, after having read Mika's post, I felt I would be in a losing position to try and argue in this guy's defense.

Thanks! I take that as a compliment! (whether it was meant to be or not. )

3) Why do you think people like our illustrious author write articles like this? Attention? Because people like to complain about something?

Because he had a story and an audience willing to hear it.

The main thing about this story that I didn't like was how he starts out by stating that he's going to tell everyone how police in Japanese "harass foreigners", but the police actually DIDN'T:

1) single him out for being a foreigner
2) treat him any worse than they would have a Japanese national

The guy is in the wrong, even though he could reasonably argue that he was provoked. He received treatment accordingly.

 

[pipokun]

I'm a normal guy.

At least, yakuza turns more shrewd, or I should say awkwarder, after the anti organized crime law... As long as you live in a normal life, no yakuza in your life. Just curious to know where he is living now, yakuza in daily life.

If I were a real yakuza, I'd file a lawsuite against him after distributing false information or gossiping, the fountain case, on the net. What if he was really a victim?

 

[gaijinalways]

gaijin smash?

Hmm, I don't think foreigners in Japan are generally treated well even when they file reports. The police here sometimes need to be prodded into action on even serious cases, remember Lucie Blackman;

More bar hosts will die like Lucie, says victim's father

If you remember, the father was almost 'harassing' the police to do something, and even then they overlooked his daughter's dead body the first time they searched in a cave in Chiba, a cave near Obara's condo.

My respect for the police here is pretty low, but then again, I wouldn't hit someone here either, I don't relish staying in jail for up to 23 days before I might be able to see a lawyer.

Just curious to know where he is living now, yakuza in daily life.

Maybe Osaka or Kabuki -cho in Shinjuku in Tokyo? Plenty of Yakuza around, though I don't knowingly go to Yakuza owned places, but you might also end up a building with some of their kind (one of my buddies out toward Machida did, they moved in later, that's an interesting story).

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

To be honest, i dont see anything wrong in the way the guy was treated, he is an attention seeker and small-minded too, despite his intresting writing style, i think he has some confidence in himself issues..
Some things i noticed with his story, although he claims he is trying to no persuade anyone of his innocence, he seems to be going to great lengths to put an image of being overwhelmed by some violent yakuza thug in a mafia style car full of violent hoodlums, which when you look at the evidence, doesn't seem to be the case;
a. "reasoning had failed and I was standing in front of a car full of violent hoodlums"; He describes the car passengers as "violent hoodlums", but there is no show of violence on their part neither any interaction at all.
"I explained repeatedly and to no effect that I was waiting by the side of the road for his car to pass." To tell somone somthing over and over repeatedly, at least in my books, is not really what i call "reasoning"- for somone who has lived in japan for many years and has good social relatiionships, i think the wiser thing he could have done is to appologise and walk away- drawing your attention to yourself, especially if you honestly fear for your safety,, is not a wise idea.
b. "Panicked, I pushed him through the window as a warning to desist and turned to go. The driver jumped out of his car, escalating the verbal assault and now threatening to sue me."
HE was the violent one, HE attacked a person he did not know, he pushed them through their car window. At the least, technically he is the one in the wrong, although he may have been verbally provoked, up until this point there had been no act of physical agression and thus he should not have pushed the guy- it was not an act of self defence. He should face up to this fact and admit it.

Neighbourhood gossip is irrevelevant to his situation, what done is done and it does no matter if the car guy had successfully sued people before as it did not in any way effect his meeting with the "yakuza man" or the consequences of the meeting- it does not make him nor the other man any more innocent or guilty of their actions.
The fact he is calling the man member of the yakuza is a complete assumption with no evidence to back it up, and yet again this does not change anything about what happened- this man does go to great efforts to make the people reading his story to really dislike the man he pushed.

The fact that the interogation room was dirty is just unfortunate, but should not have effected the truth of his situation- when it comes down to it, it is unlikely the room would have been completely unsuitable for sitting and talking in for a couple of hours.
The interrogation methods are very standard, they are used pretty much world wide and he is no exception- given that he was the agressor in the whole ordeal, its reasonable the police make positively sure that there was nothing more to the story.
I can see nothing wrong with the way the police officer treats him at all, he was treated very fairly IMO.
The way i see it, i can see no discrimination directed towards him simply because he is foreign, what he experienced in japan as far as the interogation was concerned would have been done about in exactly the same way over here in England or America as far as i know.

 

[pipokun]

Hmm, I don't think foreigners in Japan are generally treated well even when they file reports. The police here sometimes need to be prodded into action on even serious cases, remember Lucie Blackman;

I do agree Japanese media should cover more about the case, no matter what background, a naturalized Japanese from certain Asian country, the accused, Obara, has.

 

[Mike Cash]

Hmm, I don't think foreigners in Japan are generally treated well even when they file reports. The police here sometimes need to be prodded into action on even serious cases, remember Lucie Blackman;

Remember Masakazu Sutou?

 

[GroglovesJapan]

I personally think that if he hadnt gone out of his way to push the guy that was in the car, the whole list of events could have been more fortunate for him.
It can take but one small mistake that builds up into somthing worse.

Altough there should be more media coverage, I just dont really see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Ewok85]

I read this a while ago, and what I found amusing is that:
1) If you ever complain about anything, you put it in writing, even more so with the police. Isn't it standard practice the world over to have something on paper, to have some kind of ID or tracking number you can use?
2) If he has been here so long (17years) and apparently has everything, why can't he sit through an interview with police without an interpreter?
3) He went in for an interview/interrorgation of his own will, then complained when it was too long, and even more worrying, signed a confession he didn't understand and wasn't even what he wanted???

Sounds like an idiot who was swept away then had a whinge.

 

[Mike Cash]

I take it, then, that no one remembers Masakazu Sutou.

 

[Maciamo]

And by the fellow's own account, it's a clear case of assault.

If pushing is an "assault" then there must be hundreds of thousands of assaults every day in Japanese train and metro stations...

I don't think the guy mentioned that he punched him. Just pushing someone who comes to yell at you for no reason is certain not an assault. In fact I would have sued the yakusa-looking guy for verbal attack, in the same situation.

Anyway, how do you prove that somebody pushed you, if there is no trace of your DNA on the person and he is not injured, unless there are numerous witnesses ready to testify ? (was that the case ?)

 

[Maciamo]

The interrogation methods are very standard, they are used pretty much world wide and he is no exception- given that he was the agressor in the whole ordeal, its reasonable the police make positively sure that there was nothing more to the story.
I can see nothing wrong with the way the police officer treats him at all, he was treated very fairly IMO.

Do you find it normal that the treatment given by the police is so much harsher that what he was accused of ? That is absolutely not normal to me. Being rouhgly interrogated during just 1 hour would seem like a much worse situation to me than just being punched in the face once. I guess that 22h equals at least to a serious beating resulting in going to the hospital. Well, not everybody may be as sensitive to verbal assaults and humiliation than I am, but for people like me "violent" and protracted police interrogation, fingerprinting, etc. is close to human rights abuse.

Maybe that's also a cultural thing. I know that American cops typically ask people to keep their hands in the air, turn around, get a body check, etc. sometimes just for speeding on an exprressway. I often see on TV people being handcuffed for very minor offences. In the Benelux or France, and indeed many European countries, there is no way this kind of procedure would happen, except "maybe" for an armed robber arrested in action. Likewise, I see in American movies and series how people are interrogated in cells, shouted at, harassed and sometimes beaten, even when there is no proof of their guilt. This again would never be accepted here. First of all, most police statement are made outside police stations (e.g. on the spot of the incident, at the suspect's home...) or they make the suspect sit comfortably, bring them a drink, and ask very civilly their version of the facts (always in the case that there is no hard evidence or proof against them). A police officer verbally abusing or hitting a suspect during an interrgation would lose their job almost instantly, especially if the suspect is well-educated and respectable.

 

[Mike Cash]

If pushing is an "assault" then there must be hundreds of thousands of assaults every day in Japanese train and metro stations...

Like insults and discrimination, "assault" is in the eye of the beholder.

Let's not try to be cute and lump unintentional jostling in together with aggressive actions.

I don't think the guy mentioned that he punched him. Just pushing someone who comes to yell at you for no reason is certain not an assault.

You're confusing the two separate and distinct crimes of "assault" and "battery". One can commit assault even with no physical contact whatsoever.

Anyway, how do you prove that somebody pushed you, if there is no trace of your DNA on the person and he is not injured, unless there are numerous witnesses ready to testify ? (was that the case ?)

I have no idea if that was the case. Was the whiner arrested and tried for assault? If not, that would seem to indicate that they were unable to substantiate the charge of assault.

 

[DoctorP]

You're confusing the two separate and distinct crimes of "assault" and "battery". One can commit assault even with no physical contact whatsoever.

This is true. In some places, "assault" can be as simple as pointing your finger into someone's face (at an extremely close distance mind you). Basically it is when you invade someone's personal space.

"Battery" is usually reserved for actual contact, such as pushing, shoving, punching or kicking.

 

[Maciamo]

Like insults and discrimination, "assault" is in the eye of the beholder.
Let's not try to be cute and lump unintentional jostling in together with aggressive actions.
You're confusing the two separate and distinct crimes of "assault" and "battery". One can commit assault even with no physical contact whatsoever.
I have no idea if that was the case. Was the whiner arrested and tried for assault? If not, that would seem to indicate that they were unable to substantiate the charge of assault.

I think the misunderstanding comes from the different types of legislation we are used to. According to Wikipedia :"Assault is a crime of violence against another person. In some jurisdictions, assault is used to refer to the actual violence, while in other jurisdictions (e.g. some in the United States, England and Wales), assault refers only to the threat of violence, while the actual violence is battery."

In most Western European jurisdictions, assault is considered as the actual violence (including verbal one).