知られなくて / 勝手におし / 選べなかった / 座っていさえ

eeky · 11 Dec 2014

Hi,

1. 「私に言わせれば、屋敷妖精たちにどんなにひどい仕打ちをしているのかを、『日刊予言者新聞』の誰にも知られなくて、クラウチさんは大変運が強いわ！」

Is 知られなくて passive? Why? While I get the idea of what this sentence must mean, I can't understand the grammar of ～を～にも知られなくて.

2. 「勝手におし」

Is this 勝手に + お (honorific) + し (stem of する)?

3. 「あんまりいろいろ選べなかったんです！」

This is probably a dumb question, but can 選べなかった only be past negative potential of 選ぶ? There are no other possiblities?

4. あなたは膝に手を組んで静かに座っていさえすればよい。

I recognise 座って and さえ, but what is 座っていさえ?

Mike Cash · 11 Dec 2014

Yay! Eeky is back!

I was getting worried something had happened to you.

Toritoribe · 11 Dec 2014

Yeah, long time no see, eeky-san! It's really fun to see your insightful questions again.

1)
Yes, that's passive. ～を…にも知られないのは運が強い makes more sense, maybe?

2)
Yes. That's an imperative mostly used by (old) women.

3)
Do you have some ideas?

4)
さえ can be attached to both the -te form and -masu stem of verbs, therefore there are two variations in "～ている + さえ"; 座ってさえいればいい and 座っていさえすればいい.

eeky · 12 Dec 2014

Thanks, yeah, I have been having a break ...

1) Unfortunately, ～を…にも知られないのは運が強い does not help me. I don't have a problem with the ～なくて part, or its connection with what follows, but with the reason for the passive form with を. I know I have had problems before with this kind of pattern.

It seems to me that「屋敷妖精たちにどんなにひどい仕打ちをしているのか」is what is known (or in fact not known) by『日刊予言者新聞』の誰. So why is it を not が?

3) No. However, for context/flow reasons I wondered if the potential interpretation was completely apt.

Toritoribe · 12 Dec 2014

1)
That's indirect passive / possessor passive.

active
誰かが（クラウチさんの）ひどい仕打ちを知った
誰か: the agent of 知った, ひどい仕打ち: the object of 知った

direct passive
（クラウチさんの）ひどい仕打ちが誰かに知られた
The object is changed to the subject.

indirect passive
クラウチさんはひどい仕打ちを誰かに知られた
The subject is the owner(the agent/the one who had done ひどい仕打ち in this case) of the object, and the agent of the main verb(the one who knew it) is indicated by に.

Probably you've seen the following example.
active
泥棒が財布を盗んだ
direct passive
財布が泥棒に盗まれた
indirect passive
（私は）財布を泥棒に盗まれた

3)
There is no other possibility other than past negative potential of 選ぶ.

eeky · 12 Dec 2014

1. Thanks, I think I get it now. I'm sure we have been through this before, but unfortunately I seem to have much difficulty recognising this pattern and applying the knowledge about it that I have previously "learnt". In the original sentence, if を is changed to が, does it still work?

Toritoribe · 12 Dec 2014

Yes, that's valid. 屋敷妖精たちにどんなにひどい仕打ちをしているのかが『日刊予言者新聞』の誰にも知られない is interpreted as a single clause in that case. However, I don't think this is the same as the original, since the nuance of passive of adversity is lost here.

Jaydent1 · 12 Dec 2014

Toritoribe said:
Yes, that's valid. 屋敷妖精たちにどんなにひどい仕打ちをしているのかが『日刊予言者新聞』の誰にも知られない is interpreted as a single clause in that case. However, I don't think this is the same as the original, since the nuance of passive of adversity is lost here.

So the correct interpretation would be 'Kurauchi was very lucky that no one from the daily prophet newspaper knew about the horrible mistreatments done to the house-elves by him'?

Toritoribe · 13 Dec 2014

(lit.) Mr Crouch is very lucky that how cruel the treatment he is doing to the House-elves is is known by no one in the Daily Prophet.

The meanings are basically the same, but speaking strictly, your translation is for 屋敷妖精たちにクラウチさんによってなされたひどい仕打ちを、『日刊予言者新聞』の誰も知らなくて、彼は大変運が強かった.

知られなくて / 勝手におし / 選べなかった / 座っていさえ

eeky

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Jaydent1

marvelous

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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