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Question 心拍を落ち着けるように

zuotengdazuo

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Hi. I have some questions about the four underlined parts. Could you have a look at them?
First, I was taught ように, in the sense of “in order to”, should be preceded by non-volitional verb. But 落ち着ける is a volitional verb. So how can I make sense of this kind of construction grammatically? Or is 落ち着ける not a volitional verb?

Second, I can’t make sense of the grammatical structure してだ. Is it an contraction of 関連しているんだ?

Third, does the ままに mean “leave as is” or “remain”? If so, why is ままに used instead of まま?

Fourth, can the 聞いた mean either “heard a lot from 琴里 and 令音” or “asked 琴里 and 令音 a lot” in this context?

Sorry for too many questions but they happen to appear in the same page.
Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

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1)
I think it's "like/as if". "In order to" also can be possible since it can be considered that the speaker can't control whether 心拍を落ち着ける or not, but 心拍が落ち着くように would be more common for that meaning, I think.

2)
それに関連してのことだ makes sense?

3)
The latter, "remain" or "while".
That's the author's preference whether to add に or not. The meaning is the same.

4)
It's "to ask" because of に. Person に聞く doesn't usually mean "to hear". から is used for that meaning.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you very much. I see.
By the way, for question (3), it’s the same usage as 馬さんは行き先を告げないまま、家を出てしまいました。, right?
 

zuotengdazuo

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Hi. I have some problem with yet another ように as shown above. The meaning seems to be “in order to fan 十香’s jealousy” but 煽る is a volitional verb, which doesn’t work well with ように grammatically. Or does this ように indicate a way or manner here? Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

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十香を嫉妬させるように also work well there even though 嫉妬させる is the 工作員's volitional action as same as the original sentence. I found the same usages of 嫉妬を煽るように in a corpus. ~ように indicates the aim/purpose anyway.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you, toritorib-san.
十香を嫉妬させるように also work well there even though 嫉妬させる is the 工作員's volitional action as same as the original sentence. I found the same usages of 嫉妬を煽るように in a corpus. ~ように indicates the aim/purpose anyway.
But my textbook says ~ように can’t be preceded by volitional verbs when ~ように indicates the aim/purpose. For that meaning we have to use 〜ために. Is my textbook inaccurate?
 

Toritoribe

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No, your textbook is not wrong, of course. The key is not "volitional vs. non-volitional", though. Volitional verbs can be used in that meaning when the subject of the verb in the subordinate clause is not the same as the subject of the main verb, so it's more accurate to say that the key is whether the subject of the main verb can control the action of the subordinate clause or not.

Even though textbooks explain so, and 嫉妬を煽るように or 嫉妬させるように are both the same subject's volitional action, these expressions are really used in that meaning, not only in your book but also in many other examples. I don't know if it might be treated as an exception or there might be some logic behind this expression. Another interpretation is that ~ように is "like/as if" since 十香の嫉妬を煽るような工作をする also works well. Anyway, all I can say is that the expression in your book is quite natural, and I don't have any question about it. That's all.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you again. So does it mean we can sometimes use 〜ように and 〜ために interchangeably to indicate purpose, even if we know the subject of the main verb can control the action of the subordinate clause, for example, would both of the following sentences work?
森さんはコンサートのチケットを買うために、並びました。
森さんはコンサートのチケットを買うように、並びました。
 

bentenmusume

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Toritoribe-san is not saying they are completely and entirely interchangeable in all contexts. Please read what he's saying again. He's specifically saying that despite the fact that the verb itself is volitional, the speaker does not have complete control of the action. This is different from your examples where they are both explicitly controllable actions on the part of the native speaker.

That said, I think there may be a slight bit of overlap, but I'm not exactly sure why you're unable to parse this ように in the same way as the "so as to/in such a way as to" meaning like それと向き合う形になるように in your other topic. It's not specifically saying "in order to", but rather describing an action performed in such a way as to elicit a certain result that the speaker does not have complete control of, but is hoping that the action will lead to or elicit the desired result.

I've expressed this before to you, but sometimes I think you're reaching a bit too hard to find an explicit black-or-white rule for every simple grammar point. I realize that this is a bit "meta" and perhaps not the clear, 100% "this is right and this is wrong" answer that you're looking for, but I would suggest that when you see a certain phrasing used in native materials, and a native speaker like Toritoribe-san tells you that it's completely natural, that you don't try to fight that and think "but this doesn't obey my interpretation of the textbook rule", but rather try to find a way to mentally adapt the prescriptive definition(s) you may have seen to allow for the slightly different usage or example that you have seen in practice.

It's not really purposeful to take an expression written by a native speaker, and about which another native speaker has said "this is completely natural" and think, "but according to my textbook it shouldn't be!" In that case, it's probably not that the textbook or native speaker(s) are wrong, but that your current interpretation is simply as-of-yet too narrow to account for real-life usages that you're only now just encountering. I'm not saying this to criticize you or to be mean, but simply that you should use these opportunities to let your understanding of things deepen and expand, rather than fight against them because they don't jibe with what you already think you know.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you for clearing my doubts, benten-san.
rather than fight against them because they don't jibe with what you already think you know.
Sorry, I may have asked my questions in a way as if I am fighting against native speakers because of my mechanical way of understanding the textbook, but I’m just looking for clarifications because sometimes I’m a bit slow to react.😅
 
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