当然のことをした / 思い巡らせた / 考えとくべき / すぐ後ろに従えて

eeky · 12 Dec 2013

Hi,

1. ハリーと同じように、ハーマイオニーも自分たちは処罰を受けても当然のことをしたと思っていた。

Who or what is the subject of した?

2. 罰っていったい何だろう、とハリーは思い巡らせた。

Why 思い巡らせた and not 思い巡らした?

3.「狼男のことは、問題を起こす前に考えとくべきだったねぇ？」

Is 考えとくべき = 考えて + おくべき (置くべき)?

4. ハグリッドがファングをすぐ後ろに従えて暗闇の中から大股で現れた。

Who is following behind whom?

Toritoribe · 12 Dec 2013

1)
自分たち

2)
It's the past of the causative 巡らせる, not just 巡らす. The meaning is the same, though.

3)
Yes.

4)
ハグリッドが: subject
ファングを: object
従えて: verb

Notice the difference between transitive （～を）従える and intransitive （～に）従う.

eeky · 12 Dec 2013

Toritoribe said:
2)
It's the past of the causative 巡らせる, not just 巡らす.

So the root verb is 思い巡る?

Toritoribe said:
4)
ハグリッドが: subject
ファングを: object
従えて: verb

Sure, but I'm puzzled. According to the Japanese, who is following whom? In the English, Fang (the dog) is following Hagrid. I don't see how the Japanese means that.

SomeCallMeChris · 12 Dec 2013

What dictionary are you looking the word up in?
According to all the ones I've seen, 従える means 'to be accompanied by' and usage examples are like "subject is accompanied by object"
従えるの英語・英訳 - 英和辞典・和英辞典 Weblio辞書
したがえる【従える】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - goo辞書
Find words - Denshi Jisho

eeky · 12 Dec 2013

SomeCallMeChris said:
What dictionary are you looking the word up in?

I am assuming that すぐ後ろに indicates that one was behind the other.

Toritoribe · 12 Dec 2013

2)
Yes, it's from 思う + 巡る.

4)
ハグリッドがファングをすぐ後ろに従えている。
Hagrid is followed/accompanied by Fang right behind him (= Hagrid).

ファングがハグリッドのすぐ後ろに従っている。
Fang is following right behind Hagrid.

eeky · 12 Dec 2013

2. Is there any way that the causative form can be explained or justified? E.g. does it literally mean that he caused himself to wonder?

Toritoribe said:
4)
ハグリッドがファングをすぐ後ろに従えている。
Hagrid is followed/accompanied by Fang right behind him (= Hagrid).

This is very confusing for me. I thought that すぐ後ろに was adverbial, describing how 従えている is performed. But if Hagrid is the subject of 従えている, then すぐ後ろに ought to describe Hagrid, meaning that Hagrid was behind Fang. Where am I going wrong?

SomeCallMeChris · 12 Dec 2013

It does, of course, but I meant in response to this,

eeky said:
I don't see how the Japanese means that.

I don't see what the problem is. The verb means 'to be accompanied by'. So,
ハグリッドがファングを（すぐ後ろに）従えた
As already noted, Hagrid is the subject, Fang is the object. subject was accompanied by object.
Hagrid was accompanied by Fang.

すぐ後ろに just says -where- Fang is physically. (behind, as opposed to beside or wherever.) 従える makes Fang the one 'accompanying' (putting Fang in a position like an attendant, assistant, or servant. Or, well, loyal pet, as the case actually is.)

Where one is physically doesn't have to do with who is accompanying. The assistant secretary to the Minister of Magic could be walking ahead of the Minister into a room, but the assistant secretary would still be the one 'accompanying' in most cases. Toritoribe's post above covers how to say it the other way and make the accompanying party the subject.

Toritoribe · 12 Dec 2013

2)
Not himself but moe likely his thought. The similar expression 思いを巡らす / 考えを巡らす more clearly shows it.

4)
ハグリッドがファングを自分（＝ハグリッド）のすぐ後ろに従えている makes more sense, maybe? すぐ後ろに describes how he is accompanied by Fang or where Fang is at. It's not ファングのすぐ後ろ.

SomeCallMeChris · 12 Dec 2013

As for why 後ろに applies to Fang, compare it to

( 引くを英語で - 和英辞典 - コトバンク )
いすを炉の側に引く
draw (up) a chair near the fire

If I say ハグリッドがいすを炉の側に引いた clearly the location applies to the object, not to Hagrid, right?

Of course, there are verbs that work the other way. I haven't really done an extensive look at it, but I think mostly に marked locations apply to objects with transitive verbs, and に marked locations apply to subjects with intransitive verbs. I have a feeling that may not be quite universal but I can't come up with a counter-example off the top of my head.

Morphling · 12 Dec 2013

当然のことをした / 思い巡らせた / 考えとくべき / すぐ後ろに従えて

Okay I see where it is confusing. It's the に right. すぐ後ろに. This に has nothing to do with adverb but everything to do with location. It's the same に as 家に住む。

Just like 鉛筆は箱のすぐ後ろにある。the に is not being an adverb for ある. It's simply stating a location.

The adverb に is used before a な adjective 形容動詞. 綺麗に仕上げなしょう. 後ろ isn't one so it's not possible to be adverbial.

If it is an adverb に the sentence would be:

ハグリッドがファングを冷静的に従えて暗闇の中から大股で現れた。

冷静的なのはハグリッドです。

eeky · 13 Dec 2013

Thanks all.

当然のことをした / 思い巡らせた / 考えとくべき / すぐ後ろに従えて

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

SomeCallMeChris

先輩

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

SomeCallMeChris

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

SomeCallMeChris

先輩

Morphling

先輩

eeky

先輩

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