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引目ででもあるかのように

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UsoToChinmoku

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あの人は、阿呆なくらいに自惚れ屋だ。
私などから世話を受けている、ということを、何かご自身の、ひどい引目（ひけめ）ででもあるかのように思い込んでいなさるのです。
あの人は、なんでもご自身で出来るかのように、ひとから見られたくてたまらないのだ。ばかな話だ。

Why is で used twice here, instead of just でもある? Normally, I'd think this is a typo, but this is Osamu Dazai's 駈込み訴え so I assume it had sufficient proofreading. The downloadable version is also the same.

Source: 太宰治 駈込み訴え
 
First で should be the copula (te-form of です or である) and second should be the でも that you are expecting. Or at least that's the only explanation that comes immediately to mind.
 
As mdchachi-san explained, because it's "で + でも(= even/or something) + ある", and not "で + も(= too/also) + ある".
 
That makes sense. Thanks.

It's just that I had never seen it used like this. Actually, I googled "ででもある" and this is the 2nd result that comes up ででもある / 後ずさりした | Japan Forum
You said it might be a typo here, so I assumed the "ででもある" structure may not be grammatical.

Btw, why did you edit your previous post and remove "it makes it clear that's"? That made sense, since even without the additional "で", "引目でもある" could mean "even/or something", no? So the additional "で" is basically only used for emphasis?
 
引目でもあるかのように can't mean "even". It can mean "or something", but ある means "to have/exist" in that case, and not 世話を受けていることが引目である（＝だ）. That's the reason I edited my post.

彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目である（＝引け目だ）。
彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目でさえある。
彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目か何かである。
(As you can see, で can't be omitted here, because these are variations of である, therefore 引け目でもある is interpreted only as "で + も(= too/also) + ある".)

cf.
彼は世話してもらうことに引け目がある。 (ある = to have/exist)
彼は世話してもらうことに引け目さえある。
彼は世話してもらうことに引け目か何かがある。
彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でも(= or something)あるかのようだ。
 
Oh, thanks for the detailed explanation.

So to sum up, (で)(も)ある loses it's properties as a copula and simply becomes a string of words で＋も＋have/exist, but in the case of "ででもある" the copula properties are retained because "でも" is inserted inside the copula the same way "さえ" is inserted into "でさえある"?
 
でもある is also a variation of である in 彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目でもある. I meant this by "で + も(= too/also) + ある". The key is whether it's ～が引け目である or ～に引け目がある. The particle が disappears behind さえ or でも in the latter case (～に引け目さえある/～に引け目でもあるかのようだ).

Yes for the position of でも in ででもある.
 
OK, this is pretty confusing. I'll try to sum it up the way I understand it one more time.

1)彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目でもある。
2)彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもある。

Both of the above are grammatical and both of the them are variations of the である copula. The first sentence can only mean "also/too", because this is basically just the も particle coming in between the で(も)ある copula. It can't mean "or something" because the で is a part of である and NOT でも, so も needs a separate で like in the 2nd sentence.

IF we would change the sentence structure to: 彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でもある。 THEN It CAN mean "or something", but this time the nuance of the whole sentence changes to "there is a weakness/he has a weakness" instead of "it is a weakness". And this is a variation of～ に引目がある, where が disappears behind でも. So this time it's not the copula "である", just でも＋ある(exist/have).

The original sentence in question calls for the use of the copula である＝だ:
"私などから世話を受けている、ということを、何かご自身の、ひどい引目（ひけめ）ででもあるかのように思い込んでいなさるのです。"
Because it's "He's under the impression that receiving help from me IS some sort of weakness for him or something" Which means the additional でも in-between the copula である is indispensable to express "or something". Otherwise it would simply mean "He thinks that is also a weakness"

Correct?
 
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Yes.
UsoToChinmoku said:
this is a variation of～ に引目がある, where が disappears behind でも. So this time it's not the copula "である", just でも＋ある(exist/have).
Click to expand...
Yes.

There is no problem with 彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもあるかのようだ, but #2 彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもある sounds awkward. 彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でもある is as well, therefore I used 彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でもあるかのようだ as an example in my previous post. でも only means "or something" in 引け目でもあるかのようだ, and can't mean "even", as I wrote "でも(= or something)".

彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目である and 彼は世話してもらうことに引け目がある are almost the same in meaning.

I simplified the structure to 彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目である in order to make easier to understand, but grammatically, 彼は世話を受けているということを引け目であるかのように思い込んでいる and 彼は世話を受けているということが引け目であるかのように思い込んでいる have different sentence structures. The former, i.e., the original is "He feels receiving help as his weakness" since 世話を受けているということ is the object of 思い込んでいる. On the other hand, the whole clause 世話を受けているということが引け目である is the object of 思い込んでいる in the latter case, so it means "He feels that receiving help is his weakness". The copula is needed after 引け目 in both cases anyway, though (世話を受けることを引け目だと思う vs 世話を受けることが引け目だと思う).

Finally, でも can mean both "even" and "or something" in the original sentence. Actually, "even" is my initial interpretation, and I believe this ambiguity is exactly Dazai's intention to choose でも, and not さえ.
 

I removed the "かのようだ" for simplicity's sake, but I assumed the sentence is still grammatical... It is still grammatical, right? Just kind of awkward/unnatural sounding?

Toritoribe said:
でも only means "or something" in 引け目でもあるかのようだ, and can't mean "even", as I wrote "でも(= or something)".
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused as to why you pointed it out. As you have already said before that it can't mean "even". Are you putting emphasis on "かのようだ" this time? Or is it just a reminder?

彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目でもある。=too/also
彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもある。 = even/or something

彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でもある。=or something (can't be even)

Does adding "かのようだ" change it's properties? I mean, apart from sounding less awkward.


I didn't notice they have different structures (objects)...There's more of a focus on it being a weakness in the が version, but, ultimately, meaning wise they feel almost the same to me.


Yeah, I understood this part. Hence my last interpretation.

Toritoribe said:
Finally, でも can mean both "even" and "or something" in the original sentence. Actually, "even" is my initial interpretation, and I believe this ambiguity is exactly Dazai's intention to choose でも, and not さえ.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Yeah, using さえ would be much clearer. Interesting interpretation, I mean the part regarding intentional ambiguity. And an interesting choice of words by Dazai.
 
UsoToChinmoku said:
I removed the "かのようだ" for simplicity's sake, but I assumed the sentence is still grammatical... It is still grammatical, right? Just kind of awkward/unnatural sounding?
Click to expand...
I don't think 引け目ででもある can be the predicative of a sentence. かのようだ, ごとく, よう, らしい or like that is always necessary after that. In fact, for instance 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目ででもある is valid, but actually this ででもある is "で(particle) + で + も(also) + ある" since it's the inversion of カンニングを見逃してもらった引け目で(= particle to indicate the cause/reason)先生に頭が上がらない.

What I want to say is this;
世話してもらうことが引け目ででもあるかのようだ (でも = even/or something)
世話してもらうことに引け目でもあるかのようだ (でも = or something (can't be even))

UsoToChinmoku said:
ultimately, meaning wise they feel almost the same to me.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the meaning is the same. It's just the difference in the sentence structure.
 

Is there any particular rule why it can't be the predicative? Or does it simply sound nonsensical? The only thing I can think of is that "there has to be causality between the 1st clause and the 2nd clause" like in your example.

Although, I'm not completely sure how this sentence works here. So we have ででもある. The first で is cause/reason, the second で belongs to も? And ある means "to have/exist" here? It's not the copula ででもある?
"先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目ででもある" would mean "The reason he can't talk back to his teacher is also(?) because he has a weakness of a blind eye being turned on his cheating."
Is the implication here "on of the (many) reasons he can't talk back"?

How would the meaning change here if we removed the で from でも? "先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目でもある"


That's what I thought.

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, the meaning is the same. It's just the difference in the sentence structure.
Click to expand...

Ah, I was afraid there might be some sort of an additional nuance I'm not seeing.
 
UsoToChinmoku said:
Is there any particular rule why it can't be the predicative? Or does it simply sound nonsensical?
Click to expand...
It seems that the predicative でもある only can be a variation of である (でも(= too/also)ある). My wild guess is that である is too common as copula, so it would be the initial interpretation in most cases.

UsoToChinmoku said:
the copula ででもある
Click to expand...
That's what I meant.
先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目で(particle)も(= too/also)だ / からもだ。

It would be interpreted as 引け目ででもある from the context, but, speaking strictly, it's ungrammatical since the particle and copula must be there. In fact, 頭が上がらないのは引け目もだ doesn't make sense.
先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目でもある is grammatical. Can you see the difference?
 

Oh. So it IS the copula. I thought that it's 引け目があるからもだ. So the only reason this works as a predicative is because it's an inversion of 引け目で頭が上がらない?

○ 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目ででもある。 particle to indicate reason で+particle also/too も+である copula
vs
× 彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもある。 であるcopula＋でも



And で（でも）ある isn't considered a variation of である?



I see.
The difference is that the last sentence uses でも＋ある(have/exist) - a variation of ～ことへの引け目がある? But what does ことへの help here?
If it's not でも＋ある it's equally nonsensical, no? 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目もだ。
 
Last edited:
で（でも）ある is a variation of である. I meant でもある at the end of a sentence. Whether it's "ででもある" or "でもある", でもある must be always でも(too/also)ある at the end of a sentence.

○彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目でもある。
×彼（に）は世話してもらうことが引け目ででもある。
×彼は世話してもらうことに引け目でもある。
○先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目ででもある。
○先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目でもある。
 
Toritoribe said:
○先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目でもある。
Click to expand...
So what about this one? Was I right or? I still don't understand what does uninflecting the verbal phrase with a こと help us? Does the predicative of the sentence change in this case?

EDIT: OK, I just took a better look at your example, and probably I'm wrong. Since the way you highlighted でもある means it's the copula and not でも＋ある(exist/have). So

×先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目でもある。
○先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目でもある。

×先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目もだ。
○先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目もだ?

As I see it, in both cases 引け目でもある is predicative. So what does making it a nounal phrase help?
 
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Hmm, sorry, I was wrong. 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらったことへの引け目でもある has the same structure as 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目でもある and it's ungrammatical, either. I should have used カンニングを見逃してもらったことで先生に頭が上がらないのは僕にとって引け目でもある。 instead.
(I wanted to give an example 先生に頭が上がらないこと is 引け目 instead of カンニングを見逃してもらったこと is 引け目.)
 
OK, I know this discussion has been going on for quite some time now, but bear with me for a little while longer xD

So your new sentence:
カンニングを見逃してもらったことで先生に頭が上がらないのは僕にとって引け目でもある。

I'm assuming that it's grammatical because, we don't need the reason particle で to be a part of the predicate anymore, since it's already used after こと？
 
カンニングを見逃してもらったことで先生に頭が上がらないのは僕にとって引け目でもある。
The core of the sentence is 先生に頭が上がらないのは引け目でもある。
(先生に頭が上がらないこと is also 引け目 other than another thing, e.g., 先生に頭が上がらないのは僕にとって屈辱でもあるし、引け目でもある.)

先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目ででもある。
＝ 先生に頭が上がらないのはカンニングを見逃してもらった引け目で/からもだ。
＝ カンニングを見逃してもらった引け目で/からも先生に頭が上がらない。
(カンニングを見逃してもらった（という）引け目 is one of the reasons 先生に頭が上がらない.)

In the second example, 引け目 is カンニングを見逃してもらったこと, and not 先生に頭が上がらないこと. Thus, these two example sentences have different meanings.
 
Yeah, I had noticed the changes in meaning, just wasn't sure of the grammatical changes regarding the predicative part. Thanks for breaking it down for me.

It took a while (almost a week!), but it looks like I'm all out of questions xD

Anyway, thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.
 
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