What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

Kajii Motojiro's In a castle town (城のある町にて)

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi, I'm trying to translate a passage from Kajii Motojiro's In a castle town (城のある町にて) and I'm having a big headache with the expression: "ちがいますともわらびます", what does it mean? Does it have an actual meaning? Without having a clear idea about what is intended, I can't translate the rest of the dialogue...
Also the playing with words between uncle and niece a little before ( 朝鮮閣x松仙閣) is a bit difficult to translate, there is a difference in pronunciation, but is there some pun I'm missing? Any ideas? Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
Hi, I'm trying to translate a passage from Kajii Motojiro's In a castle town (城のある町にて) and I'm having a big headache with the expression: "ちがいますともわらびます", what does it mean? Does it have an actual meaning?
The answer appears few lines later.
これ、蕨(わらび)とは違いますって言うつもりやったんやなあ

Also the playing with words between uncle and niece a little before ( 朝鮮閣x松仙閣) is a bit difficult to translate, there is a difference in pronunciation, but is there some pun I'm missing? Any ideas?
He misheard しょうせん as ちょうせん since the pronunciation is close. Later, he already realized the correct name, but continued saying ちょうせんかく playfully.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi Toritoribe, she says 蕨ます instead of 蕨です, correct? I was wondering if it couldn't be interpreted like : "When you make a mistake, (people) will laugh", because of the sounds... It is just the girl trying to say 違う、蕨ではない , right?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
わらび has nothing to do with 笑い/笑う, and ちがいますとも can't mean "When you make a mistake" (you thought of something like ちがえますと, right?). I think what she wanted to say would be ちがいますとも、わらびとは or like that.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
I see... So, there are no puns (which is a relief). Thank you!
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi Toritoribe, do you have any reference about the place which is called 松仙閣 in the text? It should be in Mie province, but I couldn't find anything about it.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi, sorry to bother again still in Kajii's 城のある町にて  what the おし in 独りせっせとおしをかけいる mean? Is she watering the plants that she had gathered? Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
I moved our posts.

do you have any reference about the place which is called 松仙閣 in the text? It should be in Mie province, but I couldn't find anything about it.
As the kanji 閣 shows, 松仙閣 is the name of a building/house.

葛谷夫妻による寿亭の創業は明治44(1911)年であった。葛谷夫妻による寿亭は、本格的な高級旅館を目指して経営され、次々と別館が増設された。別館は和風建築で、周りの景色に融合する造りであった。
大正4(1915)年に築造された松仙閣(しょうせんかく)には、昭和8(1933)年に志賀直哉がしばらくの間投宿し、短編小説「菰野」を著している。

【国登録】旅館寿亭 水雲閣 - 三重県菰野町公式サイト

寿亭は1881(明治14)年に建ち、これまで皇室、政財界の重鎮、文人などの著名人らが投宿した。大正時代には別館の松仙閣、対山閣を新築、望城閣、水雲閣と純日本風の離れが完成した。
これらの歴史的な建物は贅を尽くした造りで、周りの風景を独り占めするよう設計されている。しかし、今は客を受け入れることはない。

菰野町

志賀直哉が湯の山で泊まったのは、旅館寿亭の松仙閣。現在は裏側に残っており、従業員の宿舎として使用されている。
三重の文学:志賀直哉の憂鬱

湯の山温泉 旅館寿亭|日本庭園と貸切風呂が自慢の老舗旅館

what the おし in 独りせっせとおしをかけいる mean? Is she watering the plants that she had gathered?
As said 学校の植物の標本を造っている。 previously, it's 押し. She is pressing plants.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Thank you for the references, Toritoribe!
Oh boy, it is so difficult to translate terms without kanjis! Which would be the kanji for かけいる then? (And the meaning?)
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
かける【掛ける/懸ける】 の意味
14 力・重みなどを一方に加えのせる。力などを仕向ける。「体重を―・けて浴びせ倒す」「もみけしの圧力を―・ける」

かける【掛ける/懸ける】の意味 - goo国語辞書

"The -masu stem + いる" is a classical expression of ~ている.
e.g.
かけいる = かけている
飲みいる = 飲んでいる
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Thank you, Toritoribe! You are the best!

There is another passage I'm not sure about: 牴牾(もどか)しいのはこっちだ、といったふうに寸分違わないように似せてゆく.

もどかしい means irritated/impatient, right? So the girl was annoyed with his stubborn uncle who kept pronouncing 松仙閣 the wrong way, and she kept insisting on the right pronounciation, is that right?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
The subject who was impatient is uncle, and I think 寸分違わないように似せてゆく means that he copied her way of saying 松仙閣, likeちょう―せん―かく for しょう―せん―かく (or maybe ちょう―せんかく for しょう―せんかく, ちょうせん―かく for しょうせん―かく or ちょうせんかく(put stress on ちょう) for しょうせんかく, etc.).
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
But the girl had been pronouncing the word correctly and the uncle was the one who had misundestood it, right, just in the end the roles were reversed, right?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
Yes, but the subject of 牴牾(もどか)しい is the same as the subject of 似せてゆく, thus, the uncle. My interpretation "various way of saying it" is from 寸分違わないように似せてゆく。それが遊戯になってしまった。.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Ok, I will think about how to convey this idea. Thank you!
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi Toritoribe, in the end I translated the passage as: "Takashi kept repeating the name of the place without changing its pronounciation with a faked impatience". (Or something like that because I translate to the Portuguese). Do you think that it is too far from the original meaning?

Now, going backwards in the same dialogue between uncle and niece when the last one says:

「うん」と言って彼の手をぴしゃと叩(たた)いた。

Does this うん mean that she agrees that her uncle is pronouncing the name right? Or is it a kind of grunt that means that she thinks that her uncle is a blockhead who doesn't understand what she is saying? (This would explain the slap on his hand).

And going still further back, in the conversation bellow who is talking? Does it take place between Katsuko and her little friends or is uncle talking too? My interpretion is between ()

袖の長い衣服を着て、近所の子らのなかに雑っている勝子は、呼ばれたまま、まだなにか言いあっている。
「『カ』ちうとこへ行くの」 (Katsuko)
「かつどうや」 (Uncle)
「活動や、活動やあ」と二三人の女の子がはやした。(Katsuko little friends)
「ううん」と勝子は首をふって (Katsuko)
「『ヨ』ちっとこへ行くの」とまたやっている。(Katsuko)
「ようちえん?」 (Uncle)
「いやらし。幼稚園、晩にはあれへんわ」 (Uncle)
 
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
It's the latter. Probably you've come across women's words 「うん、もう○○なんだから」 or like that so far? That's this うん.

The speaker of 「かつどうや」 and 「ようちえん?」 is one of the neighbors' children (they can be different child). She had been talking with children before her uncle went there, as まだなにか言いあっている shows.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Understood! Dialogues are complicated in Portuguese because I have to indicate who is speaking every time.
Thank you again, Toritoribe!
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
I forgot to mention your translation. I think "with a faked impatience" can convey the nuance that he is actually just kidding.👍
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi Toritoribe, I need your help again. In the passage: その言葉には何のたくみも感ぜられなかったけれど、彼が少年だった時代、その歌によって抱いたしんに朗らかな新鮮な想像が、思いがけず彼の胸におし寄せた。

What does 抱いたしんに means?

Regardless, I translated it as: The lyrics were simple, without anything special, but the song unexpectedly brought happy and revigorating images to his mind which filled his young heart.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
That's an adverbial phrase 真に truly.
Yes, you seem to get the meaning correctly.👍
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
And what is the function/meaning of よって抱いた (よっていだいた?) in this context?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,063
Reaction score
3,300
によって: by
抱いた: had
Didn't you use "filled" because you understood the nuance of 抱く?
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
I went for the general context, the meaning of 抱いた seemed close to 頂いた to me.
 

karenk

後輩
Joined
3 Apr 2014
Messages
344
Reaction score
6
Hi again, my question now is, what does the "はかせた"
in そしてこの日頃の昼となし夜となしに、時どきふと感じる気持のむずかゆさを幾分はかせたような気がし mean? Could it be close in meaning to "get rid of"?
 
Top Bottom