参考程度、ご参考まで

[UsoToChinmoku]

Both of these mean "for your reference", but I wonder how do the 程度、まで(に) parts work semantically in these phrases?

Do both of these add humility? F.E.: In case of まで, 「（この情報を）ご参考までにしていただければ幸いです」 - "I'd be happy If you would go as far as to use this (trivial) information for your reference." ?

Does 程度 have the same function / level of politeness here? ほんの参考ですが/参考（という程度）にすぎないですが？

Is this the 3rd usage? Does it show extent? "ご参考程度にしてください" ＝ lit.: "Please use it to the extent of your reference"? Implying that the provided information or opinion doesn't play a larger role than/doesn't go over the extent of "for reference"?

Can't wrap my head around these "extent" phrases as usual

 

[Majestic]

Yes, both of these add humility. I wouldn't translate as

I'd be happy If you would go as far as to use this

because that sounds rather obliging (the speaker is obliging the reader to do something to a certain extent). I would suggest it is an even more humble, "I offer this merely for your potential consideration".
If you want to find a way to wrap your head around the まで or 程度 I would say, "Please accept this advice only inasamuch as it helps you form an opinion about whatever the subject is" or "I offer this advice only to the extent that it might be interesting for you to consider"
It all comes out as a bit of a mouthful in English. One of those cases where the Japanese original is far more elegant than any translation.

 

[UsoToChinmoku]

Yeah, I understand the intention behind 程度 here, but I have a problem grasping the underlying grammar. The "only to the extent" part helped a bit, I think. So, basically 程度 indicates the upper(?) limit here? And the "upper limit" in this case is 参考?

 

[UsoToChinmoku]

Can't edit anymore. Anyway, I've read this nuances - Can その程度 be used for a high degree or with a positive connotation? - Japanese Language Stack Exchange and I think I understand now. I wasn't sure whether 程度 implied a high, low or neutral degree/limit. It also seemed somehow weird because the ~にする(にして) action is being done by the listener while the speaker himself suggests the degree. 「参考程度のものですが、役に立っていただければ幸いです」 makes more sense to me.

So, to reiterate - in the case of 「私の意見を参考程度にしてください」 the speaker is asking the listener to view his opinion within the low degree of a "reference"?

By the way, is the answered provided in the link correct? (including the different pronunciations?)

 

[Majestic]

Well the 程度 is directly referring to 参考, so the speaker is saying that the advice is "only meant as reference"... sort of like saying "just for your information" or the insidious "just sayin'". We often use "just for you information" to impart some fact or hearsay that, by itself, isn't particularly actionable, but in the overall evaluation might be something worth considering, however briefly.

In other words, 参考程度 means "meant to be used as reference". No more, no less. It means, my advice is not meant as warning, caution, order, command, strong recommendation, or anything other than simply an opinion for you to use as reference. That is the extent to which you should take my words.
So, yes 「参考程度」 implies a low degree of suggestion in the hierarchy of suggestions. I agree mostly with the link you provided.

 

[UsoToChinmoku]

I understand completely now. Thank you for your help.

For some reason I always have problems cognizing these 分/ほど/程度 degree indicators.(Especially in adverbial phrases) It's like the black/blue, white/gold dress equivalent of linguistics xD

Also, you only agree "mostly"? Is there some misinformation in the provided link?

 

[Majestic]

If its any consolation I think these degree indicators trip up a lot of people. I like your analogy of the blue/gold dress.

I added the "mostly" in there because I can't say for sure that 程度 is exclusively used to imply a low or subtle extent of things. This is how it is typically used, and its a helpful way to think about it. But I think it might be overstating the case to equate 程度 with "low", even if it is commonly used that way.

(Plus, its a bloody long article! I didn't read it all the way through (insert shame-faced smiley))

 

[UsoToChinmoku]

Kind of a late reply but... Yeah, the thought crossed my mind... that you might have ermm... skimmed a bit through the article xD

While the "question" implies that this is always the case, the "answer" does not deal in such absolutes.

The key points were:

"その程度 consists of the two words その and 程度, and can be used as such with no particular connotation.

Furthermore, as noted by broccoli forest, over time the combination その程度 has become a collocation with an additional nuance, namely implying a low or insufficient level or degree.

In the latter case, it can be considered one "word" or expression, which is supported by the change in pitch accent: そのていど. In the former case it is その+ていど.

Taking these considerations and the examples from the question into account, I believe we can say that:

そのていど is often used as an expression associated with a negative connotation and low(er) degree or level.

At most it involves a neutral connotation when it is simply a combination of その+ていど. In that usage, a rather a low(er) or high(er) degree could possibly be involved.

It is not an expression associated with a positive connotation or high(er) degree or level."

 

[Toritoribe]

As for the pitch accent of 程度, when そのていど is used as an expression with negative connotation like a set phrase, the accent of ていど is always type1(the accent is on the first syllable) /て]いど/, whereas when being used as just その ＋ ていど, ていど can be pronounced both as type0 (flat) /ていど=/ and type1 /て]いど/.