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他のものだといままでどおり

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I'm having some trouble with this line of dialogue,

The discussion until now is around what will happen if the two girls, 静乃 and 南天 continue to avoid each other,
and then,

クリームヒルト:静乃は南天がわに入れば他のものだといままでどおり接していける自信が
持ってない。それは彼女なりに現実的判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分
成長したといえるだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで、多少けいやくなバランス
をほうかいもけいようと。それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるようなごうきさがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?

I think it's クリームヒルト who is the subject of 自信が持ってない、e.g., she's stating what she doubts is possible.
I think 静乃 is the subject of 接していける but I'm not quite sure what 接していける means here,
and I don't understand the role of 他のものだと at all here.

The next bit I think is just saying that that's 静乃’s version of a realistic (=practical) decision, and it's
a sign of her growth that she recognizes the futility of merely superficial 付き合い, where 付き合い is
probably getting along with 南天.

I think 進んで欲しい is クリームヒルト wants 静乃 to take another step in her growth, but it will... do something destructive to the balance of the contract?
(There may be story jargon involved here).

I'm not sure if ごうきさ is 'fortitude' or 'valor', or what それ of それはそれでいい is.

Any assistance on clarifying these points would be appreciated.
 

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It seems that you misread the text since it partially doesn't make sense.
 
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It seems that you misread the text since it partially doesn't make sense.
Mis-heard, but, what part?

Edit: I found a missing に and の, but I don't feel like that's what you meant.
静乃は南天がわに入れば他のものだといままでどおり接していける自信が
持ってない。それは彼女なりに現実的判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分
成長したといえるだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで、多少けいやくなバランス
をほうかいもけいようと。それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるようなごうきさがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?
 
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Toritoribe

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Oh, you heard it. That makes sense since there are too many mistakes as misreading.:)

静乃は南天がわに入れば他のものだといままでどおり接していける自信が
持ってない。
それは彼女なりに現実的判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分
成長したといえるだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで、多少けいやくなバランス
をほうかいもけいようと。
それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるようなごうきさがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?

南天がわに could be also wrong.
Especially the last part doesn't make sense at all.
 
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他のものだと

Can you pluralize 者 as 者ら? It's not the crispest だ in the world, it might be a ら.

自信が 持ってない This actually sounds like じしんがもうてない ... I think it could be 自信がもう出ない

多少けいやくなバランス をほうかいもけいようと ... たしょうけんあくなばらんすをほうかいもうけようと maybe?


静乃は南天がわに入れば他の者らといままでどおり接していける自信が
もう出ない。
それは彼女なりに現実的判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分
成長したといえるだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで、多少険悪なバランス
をほうかいもうけようと。
それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるようなごうきさがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?

The first two corrections makes the first part then mean, I think, "If Nanten joins then Shizuno won't have the confidence anymore to contact others the same as she has up until now."

The other questions I'm still lost on. 険悪なバランス makes more sense but what's happening to the balance I can't figure out. (儲けよう?も受けよう?Those don't seem to fit).

I can't put the line as a clip because of size, but I think I can put the third underlined part as a clip. At least it loaded 100%, so hopefully it works.







 

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Toritoribe

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多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと
This is not the end of a sentence. It's a clause that continues to the next clause.

I think 自信がもう出ない would be 自信が持てない.
The whole sentence 静乃は南天がわに入れば他の者らといままでどおりに接していける自信が持てない。 still doesn't make much sense, though.

それは彼女なりに現実的判断で could be それは彼女なり現実的判断で?
 
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Hmm. I feel like 持てない is a mora short, but maybe?

It's 現実的判断, not that it really makes a difference. I don't think that it can be なりの, but, let's see.

If this clip loads, it should cover this... no, let me trim that down to this...

静乃は南天がわに入れば他の者らといままでどおり接していける自信が
もてない。
それは彼女なりに現実的な判断で




The whole sentence 静乃は南天がわに入れば他の者らといままでどおりに接していける自信が持てない。 still doesn't make much sense, though.

What doesn't make sense? Is there something about the context you need to know, or does it makes sense now that you can hear it directly?
 

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Toritoribe

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静乃は南天が輪に入れば他の者らと今まで通りに接していける自信が持てない。それは彼女なりに現実的な判断で

It's 現実的判断, not that it really makes a difference.
If it's 彼女なりに現実的判断で, 彼女なりに modifies 自覚している. 彼女なりに modifies 現実的な there.

What doesn't make sense? Is there something about the context you need to know, or does it makes sense now that you can hear it directly?
I thought 南天がわ was 南天側. If so, it's about 静乃's action, and it doesn't fit to the last sentence 甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える? .


うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分成長したといえるのだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで is perfectly correct?
 
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彼女なりに modifies 現実的な there.
Ah, yes, that makes sense.

I thought 南天がわ was 南天側

Hmmm, I've thought both ways trying to interpret the sentence, but I know the expression 輪に入る can mean to become part of the group, but I don't understand what 側に入る would mean.


it doesn't fit to the last sentence 甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?
Amakasu has a strong connection to Nanten, while Kriemhild has a strong connection to Shizuno.
Of course, the girls are closely linked and their fate, as well as the fate of humanity generally,
depends on them not missing this chance. (Chance to what, exactly, wasn't stated, but it's
their avoiding each other that is wasting the chance.)
In that light, I took it as just switching the subject back around to the other side of the coin, as
each is more focused on their half of the problem.



うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分成長したといえるのだろうが、ここはもういっぽ進んで欲しいところで is perfectly correct?
I can't hear any mistake, but I can attach a clip.
 

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bentenmusume

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SomeCallMeChris said:
Hmmm, I've thought both ways trying to interpret the sentence, but I know the expression 輪に入る can mean to become part of the group, but I don't understand what 側に入る would mean.
X側 would mean "X's side", but the pitch accent and context make it clear here that, as Toritoribe-san observed, it's 南天が輪に入れば, not 南天に入れば.

Anyhow, the point Toritoribe-san is making isn't just about the difference in meaning between 側 and 輪. Rather, it's that if it's 静乃は南天が輪に入れば, the particle が is indicating a change in subject. ("As far as 静乃 is concerned, if 南天 joins the group...")

Whereas if it were 静乃は南天側に入れば, there would be no change in subject, meaning that absent other context you'd interpret it as "As far as 静乃 is concerned, if she (i.e. 静乃) joined 南天's side..." which would make the last sentence asking 甘粕 what they want 南天 to be a non-sequitur, because the discussion thus far would not have been about 南天's actions and the merits/demerits of 南天 joining the group, but rather about Shizuno's actions.

But since it's 静乃は南天が輪に入れば, then the last sentence naturally follows. The speaker is pointing out a potential complication that might occur if 南天 joins the group, and then asks 甘粕, in light of that, what they want to happen.
 

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静乃は南天が輪に入れば他の者らと今まで通りに接していける自信が持てない。
それは彼女なりに現実的な判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分成長したといえるのだろうが、
ここはもう一歩進んで欲しいところだよ。
多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと、それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるような剛毅さがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?

Speaking strictly, it's still a bit awkward, but it can be interpreted as 剛毅さが欲しい. However, if it's 欲しいところ, 剛毅さが can't be attached to anywhere.
 
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Ahhh, okay.

を受けよう -- Is she saying 'wo' not 'o' for を? It still sounds to me like there is a soft consonant there.

So the fully correct version becomes as Toritoribe-san wrote,

静乃は南天が輪に入れば他の者らと今まで通りに接していける自信が持てない。
それは彼女なりに現実的な判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分成長したといえるのだろうが、
ここはもう一歩進んで欲しいところだよ。
多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと、それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるような剛毅さがな。
甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?


And then the meaning I think becomes understood as,

静乃は南天が輪に入れば他の者らと今まで通りに接していける自信が持てない。
... Shizuno doesn't have confidence in Nanten being able to continue having contact with others as she has until now,
if she joins the group.

それは彼女なりに現実的な判断で、うわべの付き合いは無理だと自覚している分成長したといえるのだろうが、
ここはもう一歩進んで欲しいところだよ。
This is, for Shizuno, a very realistic judgement, and to the extent that she realizes that a superficial acquaintance is futile you could call it growth,
but speaker would like her to make one more step in growth.

多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと、それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるような剛毅さがな。
"If she would accept the destruction of the somewhat perilous balance, that would be the kind of resoluteness that I could consider good enough."

甘粕、お前は緋衣南天にどうなってほしいと考える?
"Amakasu, what do you want for Higoromo Nanten?"
 

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With the usual disclaimers that I don't know the full context and that I'm not a native speaker, there are a few things that seem slightly off about your interpretation.

- I would interpret Shizuno as being the topic of the entire clause (南天が輪に入れば)他の者らと今まで通りに接していける自信が持てない, whereas you're making 南天 the subject of 他の者ら~. (I say this both because of the context, and because of the "tightly binding" nature of が clauses.)
- I would interpret 険悪なバランス崩壊 as [険悪な]バランス崩壊, whereas your interpretation seems closer to [険悪なバランス]の崩壊. I would also interpret 多少 as being used adverbially with 受けよう.
- それはそれでいいじゃないと思えるような is just describing/elucidating the quality of 剛毅さ, i.e. the thought process that the speaker wants from 静乃. It's not the speaker saying what they think is "good enough".

Putting that all together, I'd be inclined to render it as:


"Shizuno isn't confident that she'll be able to continue interacting with the others as she's always done if Nanten joins the group."

"This is a practical judgment on her (=Shizuno's) part, and to the extent that she's aware that carrying on a superficial relationship is impossible, one could say she's grown somewhat. Still, I want her to go a step beyond that."

"That is, to have the fortitude to accept—to a degree—a threatening disruption of balance, to believe that that (i.e. the state of instability) is just fine in its own right."
◆​

Apologies if I've misunderstood anything, but this interpretation seems to make the most sense given the wording and the context as you've described it thus far.
 

Toritoribe

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I agree with bentenmusume-san's interpretation, but just only one thing, 受ける would mean "to experience/encounter that situation", rather than "to accept", and 受けようと is a conditional just like 受けても.
 

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I wish there was a "Phew!" option under the Like button to express my sense of relief that Toritoribe-san did not tear my interpretation to shreds. ;)

Toritoribe said:
受ける would mean "to experience/encounter that situation", rather than "to accept", and 受けようと is a conditional just like 受けても.

My first inclination was to interpret this part as 多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受け止めようと(思って)、それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるような~, i.e. as if both clauses were part of the thought process, but I suppose it's closer to one thought, i.e. [多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けたとしても、それはそれでいい]と思えるような~.

At any rate, this has been one of the more stimulating question threads posted here in a while. Here's hoping that Chris-san has more of them for us in the future. ;)
 
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なるほど。

So, with,
多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと、それはそれでいいじゃないかと思えるような剛毅さがな。

the speaker's thought is only that she wants the conditional to become true (as expressed by the ほしい in the previous sentence),
the 思える means Shizuno being able to think それでいいじゃない, even if she experiences a threatening disruption of balance.

The sentence then is like, "To have the fortitude to face a certain degree of precarious instability and still be able to understand it's all right."

I did understand と to be conditional here, but is it like ても because that is what makes sense for the condition being expressed,
or is it inherent in the grammar for volitional+と where と is conditional?

And the 'volition' part of the volitional is still intended, right, so 受けよう means to willingly, proactively undergo the experience? (i.e., 'face','deal with', 'enter into', etc, rather than 'undergo', 'experience', 'endure', etc.)


I can't say I remember seeing a lot of volitional+と other than ~ようとする, which is a different と, but is the conditional volitional+と reasonably common?



At any rate, this has been one of the more stimulating question threads posted here in a while. Here's hoping that Chris-san has more of them for us in the future.
I'm glad you found it interesting. I might very well be back with more... I've actually quite often written questions only to realize the answer by the act of formulating the question. That didn't happen this time... well, couldn't happen given the transcription errors.

And of course, thank you both so much for your help!
 

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SomeCallMeChris said:
I did understand と to be conditional here, but is it like ても because that is what makes sense for the condition being expressed,
or is it inherent in the grammar for volitional+と where と is conditional?

Sorry, I'm on mobile now and don't have time to type up a full response, but you're familiar with the ~ようが/~ようと pattern meaning "even if"/"no matter if" (as in 誰が何と言おうと~), right?


If it's this pattern (which I believe is how Toritoribe-san said he innterprets it), there's nothing explicitly "volitional" about it, and it's effectively basically describing the thought process as バランス崩壊を受けてもそれはそれでいいんじゃないと思える, i.e. バランス崩壊を受けても動じない/気にしない/etc.
 
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Sorry, I'm on mobile now and don't have time to type up a full response, but you're familiar with the ~ようが/~ようと pattern meaning "even if"/"no matter if" (as in 誰が何と言おうと~), right?

Ahhh. Yeah, I do know that. I just didn't recognize it when it didn't have a どんな or なんでも or the like 'any/all' expression in the first part,
but that would explain why 多少 is where it is. It's not どんなバランス崩壊でも but 多少バランス崩壊.

I didn't know you could do that with a non-universal quantifier.
 

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This ~う/よう is the volitional form, but the actual meaning is presumptive, as in 雨が降ろうと槍が降ろうと or 何があろうと. This is from a classical usage of ~う/よう, which is equivalent to ~だろう in modern Japanese. When the verb is non-volitional, all the volitional forms are presumptive (雨が降ろう can't express the rain's will to fall, right?), but as for volitional verbs, you need to interpret the meaning from the context. 受ける can be both volitional and non-volitional, but it's non-volitional in your example since the meaning is "to experience/encounter".

It's not どんなバランス崩壊でも but 多少バランス崩壊.
It's 多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと, not 多少バランス崩壊. 多少 modifies 険悪な or 受けよう (both interpretations are possible), not バランス崩壊.
Also, you need to realize that どんな is necessary only for "no matter if", and it's not for "even if".
 
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This ~う/よう is the volitional form, but the actual meaning is presumptive, as in 雨が降ろうと槍が降ろうと or 何があろうと. This is from a classical usage of ~う/よう, which is equivalent to ~だろう in modern Japanese. When the verb is non-volitional, all the volitional forms are presumptive (雨が降ろう can't express the rain's will to fall, right?), but as for volitional verbs, you need to interpret the meaning from the context. 受ける can be both volitional and non-volitional, but it's non-volitional in your example since the meaning is "to experience/encounter".
Yes, this makes sense. Although until today I had thought of 雨が降ろうと槍が降ろうと and 何があろうと as too different categories of expression ('whether or not' and 'not matter') but on examination of the link bentenmusume-san gave and from your comments it's clear that these are very similar things in Japanese, it's just that the English that expresses them differently.

Also, you need to realize that どんな is necessary only for "no matter if", and it's not for "even if".
I meant, 「多少バランス崩壊を受けようと」 = "Even if (she) experiences a certain amount of instability, ...",
parallel in grammar to「どんなバランス崩壊を受けようと」 = "No matter how much instability (she) experiences, ...".

Actually I guess on reflection that's "No matter -what kind- of instability she experiences. I should be saying,
「どんなにバランス崩壊を受けようと」for the meaning I was trying to compare to.

I think that's what you mean by the difference of "no matter if" and "even if" ?

It's 多少険悪なバランス崩壊を受けようと, not 多少バランス崩壊. 多少 modifies 険悪な or 受けよう (both interpretations are possible), not バランス崩壊.
I left 険悪な out as extra description of 受けよう that doesn't affect the underlying grammar point, but modifies the meaning of the sentence in a straightforward adverbial way....

But if 多少 can be modifying 険悪な rather than modifying 受けよう, then my other point maybe isn't illustrative of anything.

If 多少 can modify 険悪, then you don't need either a quantifier (e.g. どんなに物理が得意だろうと、試験のときは油断してはならない) or a
list of alternatives (e.g. 雨が降ろうと雪が降ろうと明日のパーティーには必ず行くよ)...

While the meaning would be different, you could be correct in saying simply「バランス崩壊を受けようと」, or something like 「りんごを売ろうと、買わない」

This puzzles me because I don't think I've seen a sentence using this conditional ようと that wasn't preceded either by a quantifier (usually an extreme one), or a list of alternatives (usually expressing extremes by example, or else expressing 'whether or not' type opposite alternatives), and all the examples at the link bentenmusume-san provided fall into one of those categories.

But, that's perhaps just what is most common, not the only thing you can do?
 

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~ようと is a conditional like ~ても or ~たとしても, as I wrote, so there is no problem with(たとえ)物理が得意だろうと試験のときは油断してはならない or (たとえ)雨が降ろうと明日のパーティーには必ず行くよ.

I think that's what you mean by the difference of "no matter if" and "even if" ?
Yes.

を受けよう -- Is she saying 'wo' not 'o' for を? It still sounds to me like there is a soft consonant there.
I forgot to mention this. Yes, I, too, thought it could be バランス崩壊受けよう, but it's を from the meaning.
 
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Ah, I see. It all makes sense to me now.

勉強になりました。ありがとうございます!
 
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