もし and ならば

dwcarless · 20 Mar 2010

I have these two sentences:

明日雨ならば行きません。
and
もし明日雨ならば行きません。

I know both もし and ならばmean "if, in case, if it is the case" so is もしin the second sentence just adding emphasis, or is it conveying something else?

Ashikaga · 20 Mar 2010

dwcarless said:
I have these two sentences:
明日雨ならば行きません。
and
もし明日雨ならば行きません。
I know both もし and ならばmean "if, in case, if it is the case" so is もしin the second sentence just adding emphasis, or is it conveying something else?

The もし in the second sentence is there to add enphasis if anything at all. They convey the exact same message (to me anyway) unless the speaker adds her/his emphasis on the もし as in the example below.

もし明日雨ならば行きません。
(I don't think it will rain tomorrow but...) IF it does, I will not go.

Elizabeth · 20 Mar 2010

もし明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう。
It will be better if it rains, but it probably won't (?)...

It would have been better, if it had rained yesterday ?
もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう。

So in this case it seems the difference between "なら" and "ならば" is not simply a matter of formality ?

GreenCat · 22 Mar 2010

Elizabeth said:
もし明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう。
It will be better if it rains, but it probably won't (?)...
It would have been better, if it had rained yesterday ?
もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう。
So in this case it seems the difference between "なら" and "ならば" is not simply a matter of formality ?

1)もし明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう。(if it rained, then)
It's hard to tell likelihood of the event in speaker's opinion from this sentence alone, pitch and where stress comes indicate that sort of voice better.

2)明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう(it rains tomorrow, then/ should it rain, then)
Maybe speaker considers it is less likely to rain tomorrow but it is also possible that speaker preferred to use this form of sentence.

If I'm to analyse the sentences further, the first has emphasis on condition, the second has emphasis on association of two events: If A is true then B and A leads to B.
Language wise, 2) is simpler and more straight forward: meaning the speaker sounds cooler, brighter, and more judicious.

3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう。
if it will have rained tomorrow, then it would have become a lot better thing.

Better
4) もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう
because in (3), both clauses are dealing with past(one's talking about a possible future condition though: if in the future something have happened)

Toritoribe · 22 Mar 2010

（もし）昨日雨だったなら、（今頃は）もっと涼しくなっていただろう。（だが実際は雨が降らなかったので暑いままだ。）

This is a "contrary-to-fact in the past -> contrary-to-fact in the present" structure as same as the subjunctive past in English.

乗るなら飲むな。
If you drive, you shouldn't drink(before drive).

旅行に行くなら、貯金しておきなさい。
If you take a trip, save up your money(before trip).

temporal order; main clause --> conditional clause

Only なら conditional can be used for this structure.

Elizabeth · 22 Mar 2010

ありがとうございます!

"This would be better (if...)." 「would」という言葉はこの場合には仮定法であり条件法と伴いますね。

Elizabeth · 23 Mar 2010

GreenCat said:
1)もし明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう。(if it rained, then)
It's hard to tell likelihood of the event in speaker's opinion from this sentence alone, pitch and where stress comes indicate that sort of voice better.

2)明日雨ならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう(it rains tomorrow, then/ should it rain, then)
Maybe speaker considers it is less likely to rain tomorrow but it is also possible that speaker preferred to use this form of sentence.

If I'm to analyse the sentences further, the first has emphasis on condition, the second has emphasis on association of two events: If A is true then B and A leads to B.
Language wise, 2) is simpler and more straight forward: meaning the speaker sounds cooler, brighter, and more judicious.

Sentence 1 is uncoordinated and fragmented. In the event that this situation occurs (highly unlikely)...it will improve improve things (highly favorable, my behavior is an anticipated result). Disconnected from language, they are also disconnected from reality.

話し手がどのような行動をとるか聞き手としては判断できないということになります。
そういう意味でこの文は明確な情報を伝えることが出来ませんので、「ナンセンス」な文といえると思います。

*English lesson*

3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう。

It would have been better if it had rained yesterday.

3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。

Better
4) もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなるだろう
because in (3), both clauses are dealing with past(one's talking about a possible future condition though: if in the future something have happened)

It would be better if it had rained yesterday. Time shifted back as it is being reported. From the vantage point of when you are speaking, you know it didn't rain (or at least the premise whether it rained yesterday or not for certain if it is true). The condition of getting better, though, is simultaneous or future with respect to the action of the main clause....

わかりました。ありがとうございます。 ...!

GreenCat · 23 Mar 2010

Elizabeth said:
Sentence 1 is uncoordinated and fragmented. In the event that this situation occurs (highly unlikely)...it will improve improve things (highly favorable, my behavior is an anticipated result). Disconnected from language, they are also disconnected from reality.

話し手がどのような行動をとるか聞き手としては判断できないということになります。
そういう意味でこの文は明確な情報を伝えることが出来ませんので、「ナンセンス」な文といえると思います。

*English lesson*

It would have been better if it had rained yesterday.

3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。

It would be better if it had rained yesterday. Time shifted back as it is being reported. From the vantage point of when you are speaking, you know it didn't rain (or at least the premise whether it rained yesterday or not for certain if it is true). The condition of getting better, though, is simultaneous or future with respect to the action of the main clause....

わかりました。ありがとうございます。 ...!

I'm sorry, you are right.
I read 昨日 as 明日
Silly that I can't read Japanese now

I feel embarrassed but I guess that's just what I need to force myself to learn harder...
If I had confused you and wasted your time, I'm very sorry.

*English lesson*
3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう。
It would have been better if it had rained yesterday.

Thanks for a lesson
Can I say this though?
"if it rained, it would have been better"

Sentence 1 is uncoordinated and fragmented. In the event that this situation occurs (highly unlikely)...it will improve improve things (highly favorable, my behavior is an anticipated result). Disconnected from language, they are also disconnected from reality.

Thanks, I wonder why I could not see something as obvious that.

The below is what I was thinking of

3)もし昨日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。
If it had rained yesterday, it would have been better

I mistook the above for

"3)もし明日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。"
If it will have rained tomorrow, it would have been better.
(Am I using the right grammar? Please tell me)

Earlier I wrote "もし明日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。" is not a good sentence.I was wrong again, however, this sentence must be the right one if it refers to an ascertained future: For instance, if the speaker just have heard a weather forecast, and now is absolutely certain that it will rain tomorrow and is lamenting that tomorrow would not be as great as otherwise it could have been.

もし明日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっているだろう
If it had rained tomorrow, it would be much better

Thanks you so much for reading
And if I've made mistakes here again, please correct me.

Elizabeth · 25 Mar 2010

アメリカ人にとっては , あした、雨が降るか降らないか、決まってないのにit would have been better
はへんと思いますよ。

まあ、日本人だから間違ってはいないのでしょうね。

GreenCat · 26 Mar 2010

Elizabeth said:
アメリカ人にとっては , あした、雨が降るか降らないか、決まってないのにit would have been better
はへんと思いますよ。

まあ、日本人だから間違ってはいないのでしょうね。

Thank you for a reply.

まあ、日本人だから間違ってはいないのでしょうね。

Like I just did, we do make mistakes. Particularly some people don't know how to speak Japanese(including myself often), so understanding each other is like with any language, always quite hard.

And sorry that again my post had mistakes in it.. I had forgotten to insert "not"

For instance, if the speaker just have heard a weather forecast, and now is absolutely certain that it will not rain tomorrow and is lamenting that tomorrow would not be as great as otherwise it could have been.

Also, after ruminating on the sentence for ages, I came to think my translation here was wrong.

"3)もし明日雨だったならば、それはもっと良くなっていただろう(に)。"
If it will have rained tomorrow, it would have been better.
(Am I using the right grammar? Please tell me)

It should have been?:
"If it had rained tomorrow, it would have been better."
or
"If it were to rain tomorrow, it would have been better"

I will take a break from posting in this section, because my posts seem to be too lousy with errors, I'm misleading people rather than helping now.
Sorry about giving you wrong tips in this thread!!
Ask someone who's better for confirmation now if you are curious.

Anyway, I thought about the sentence and posted as a question here:
Hard to translate: How do you say this in English? | Japan Forum

もし and ならば

dwcarless

先輩

Ashikaga

もちもちした食感

Elizabeth

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Similar threads