に思える / いつどんな / だけ / 日ごろから / お願いした

[eeky]

Hiya,

1. 私は能楽が歌舞伎より好きだが、それは前者が後者より も優雅に思えるからである。

Translation given: "I prefer Noh to Kabuki , because the former looks more elegant to me than the latter."

What exactly does ～に思える mean? Is it a set form of words?


2. 犬は人間と違って、いつどんな行動をとるかわからない からだ。

My translation: "It's because dogs, unlike humans, don't know how to behave appropriately."

Does いつどんな行動をとる literally mean "which actions to take and when to take them"? Do いつ and どんな work in parallel?


3. 公園や道だったら、犬が怖い人は近づかなければいいだ けだが、電車や飛行機やレストランでは周りのお客にも しものことがあったら大変だ。

My translation: "When in a park or street, people who are scared of dogs can avoid going near them, but in a train, plane or restaurant, it would be a terrible if an accident happened to a nearby customer."

a) My translation doesn't totally make sense to me. What sort of "accident" is being envisaged? Does it mean if the dog ran amok or something??

b) What is the purpose of だけ? (I'm assuming いいだけだが = いい + だけ + だ + が)


4. 日ごろから犬のしつけを厳しくしている人

I assume this means "people who normally keep their dogs under strict control", but what is the role of から?


5. 留学が決まった時、試験を受ける前に推薦状をお願いし た石山先生に、すぐ知らせに行った。

My translation: "When (George's) exchange student place was decided, he went straight away to tell Prof. Ishiyama, who had provided a letter of recommendation prior to (George) sitting the test."

a) Who is the subject of お願いした? I'd like お願いした石山先生 to mean "Prof. Ishiyama, who had been asked (by George)", but is that grammatically possible?

b) I'm assuming that the sequence of events is: (i) George requests (and presumably receives) letter of recommendation; (ii) George sits test; (iii) exchange student place is decided (iv) George tells Prof. Ishiyama. Does this seem correct?

 

[Glenn]

What exactly does ～に思える mean? Is it a set form of words?

More like a special meaning it's taken on. See below:

おも・える〔おもへる〕【思える】 ［動ア下一］そう感じられる。自然に思われる。「人ご ととは―・えない」

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/33377/m0u/思える/

Does いつどんな行動をとる literally mean "which actions to take and when to take them"? Do いつ and どんな work in parallel?

Yes, they work in parallel, but it's more like "what kinds of actions they('ll) take when."

3. 公園や道だったら、犬が怖い人は近づかなければいいだ けだが、電車や飛行機やレストランでは周りのお客にも しものことがあったら大変だ。

a) Think of it like "if something were to happen."
b) Yes. "It would be okay to just/only not go near (the dog)..."

...what is the role of から?

It's the particle that gets used with 日ごろ. It's probably best to think of 日ごろから as a phrase unto itself, which means "usually/all the time/etc."

5. a) Who is the subject of お願いした? I'd like お願いした石山先生 to mean "Prof. Ishiyama, who had been asked (by George)", but is that grammatically possible?

b) I'm assuming that the sequence of events is: (i) George requests (and presumably receives) letter of recommendation; (ii) George sits test; (iii) exchange student place is decided (iv) George tells Prof. Ishiyama. Does this seem correct?

a) Yes. The whole sentence is about George, so that only makes sense, I think.
b) Yes

 

[Toritoribe]

5) a)
Purely literally, 推薦状をお願いした石山先生 is "Prof. Ishiyama whom George had asked to provide...". The subject of お願いした is George, since it's not the passive 推薦状をお願いされた石山先生. The meaning is the same, of course, though.

 

[eeky]

Thanks Glenn!

More like a special meaning it's taken on. See below:

Oh, sorry, I somehow didn't think to look up 思える separately.

a) Yes. The whole sentence is about George, so that only makes sense, I think.

Does 推薦状をお願いし た modify 石山先生 in the usual sense that I am (or should be) familiar with, or is there some other grammar involved here? I get confused sometimes about which semantic relationships are allowable between modifier and modified. In another context, could 推薦状をお願いし た石山先生 mean that Ishikawa made the request?

[Edited] thanks also Toritoribe; your post has just appeared after I saved the above...

 

[Toritoribe]

In another context, could 推薦状をお願いし た石山先生 mean that Ishikawa made the request?

Yes, of course it's possible. Not only that, Prof. Ishiyama can be the subject even for 推薦状をお願いされた石山先生. In this case, お願いされた is an honorific.
The example sentence is written in the view point of George. All the subjects of 留学が決まった, 試験を受ける and 知らせに行った are George. So, it's naturally interpreted that the subject of お願いした would be also George. But, after all, the context is the key when the meaning is ambiguous just like に in this case, or でしょう in this case. There are so many grammatically-possible-but-semantically-odd cases.

 

[eeky]

All the subjects of 留学が決まった, 試験を受ける and 知らせに行った are George.

Did you mean to say that the subject of 留学が決まった is George? I thought that the subject of 決まった was 留学. Is there something further that I'm misunderstanding here?

 

[undrentide]

2. 犬は人間と違って、いつどんな行動をとるかわからない からだ。

My translation: "It's because dogs, unlike humans, don't know how to behave appropriately."

Does いつどんな行動をとる literally mean "which actions to take and when to take them"? Do いつ and どんな work in parallel?

Subject of わからない is not dogs but people in general.
"Unlike humans, you cannot tell when and what actions dogs would take."
(In case of humans you can guess what they would do in certain circumstances but when it comes to dogs, you never know.)

And yes, いつ and どんな（行動）works in parallel.

 

[Toritoribe]

Did you mean to say that the subject of 留学が決まった is George? I thought that the subject of 決まった was 留学. Is there something further that I'm misunderstanding here?

Yes, that's right. Grammatically, I should use the term "topic" for 留学が決まった(ジョージは/僕は留学が決まった).

Incidentally, if the person who requested a letter of recommendation was Prof. Ishiyama, I would write 推薦状をお願いしてくださった石山先生 instead of 推薦状をお願いした石山先生, in order to define who the subject of お願いする is and avoid being misinterpreted. We use words in order to convey what we want to say, and in order not to confuse the listeners/readers, don't we?;-)

 

[eeky]

Subject of わからない is not dogs but people in general.

Oops! Thanks for spotting that!

Incidentally, if the person who requested a letter of recommendation was Prof. Ishiyama, I would write 推薦状をお願いしてくださった石山先生 instead of 推薦状をお願いした石山先生, in order to define who the subject of お願いする is and avoid being misinterpreted.

Thanks, I think that the relationship between modified word and modifier in the "～たNoun" pattern has been quite poorly covered in the materials that I have been using. I don't recall anywhere reading any explanation that covers the sorts of issues that we have touched on here. (Of course, sometimes I forget things!)

 

[eeky]

Subject of わからない is not dogs but people in general.

Though, strictly speaking, is the subject actually people in general, or is it the question "いつどんな行動をとるか"? I'm never very sure about わかる because translations often convey the meaning in the form "to understand", yet dictionaries give the meaning as "to be understood". For example, if one says わかりました to signify comprehension, is the subject grammatically the speaker or not? I feel I should know this...

 

[Toritoribe]

Oops! Thanks for spotting that!
Thanks, I think that the relationship between modified word and modifier in the "～たNoun" pattern has been quite poorly covered in the materials that I have been using. I don't recall anywhere reading any explanation that covers the sorts of issues that we have touched on here. (Of course, sometimes I forget things!)

Yeah, actually, the subject of an adnominal clause is sometimes ambiguous, and two or more interpretations are grammatically possible just like this sentence. In those cases, ～てもらう/～てくれる/～てあげる forms (so-called やりもらい動詞) are often used to make clear the relation between the doer and the subject(or the relation among the subject, the giver of the favor and the recipient of the favor).

Another factor in this sentence is the honorific お願いした. If Prof. Ishiyama is the subject of お願いした, he shows his respect for someone else who is in the higher class than him. It would be not impossible, but unnatural unless it's already mentioned in the context.

Though, strictly speaking, is the subject actually people in general, or is it the question "いつどんな行動をとるか"? I'm never very sure about わかる because translations often convey the meaning in the form "to understand", yet dictionaries give the meaning as "to be understood". For example, if one says わかりました to signify comprehension, is the subject grammatically the speaker or not? I feel I should know this...

わかりました would be an omitted version of 私はそれがわかりました. In this sentence, それ is considered not the subject but the object of わかる in linguistics, just like 道 in 道を歩く is not consdidered the object even though を is used. The subject/The person who has understood is indicated by に instead of が, although it's often hidden behind は. に appears in the negative sentences, adnominal clauses, or when the sentence has a nuance of cantrastive.
e.g.
君にはこの問題はわからない。
彼にわからない問題が、僕にわかるわけがない。
彼女にわかって、君にわからないはずがないじゃないか 。

Back to the example sentence, although が is hidden behind か, 犬が人 間と違って、いつどんな行動をとるか（が） is the object. 犬は is the topicalized 犬が, and the real subject 我々には is omitted. Thus, the full version of the sentence can be considered 我々には、犬が人間と違っていついどんな行動をとるか （が）わからない.

In conclusion, the subject is people in general, and 犬が人間と違って、いつどんな行動をとるか is the object.

 

[eeky]

Let's take the simple case of 私はそれがわかりました. In English, and, if I understand you correctly, in Japanese, the sense is that 私 is the logical subject of わかる. However, in addition to this, is there any concept in Japanese of a purely grammatical subject, which is それ? If not, I don't understand why dictionaries define わかる as "to be understood". It seems as if they are looking at usages such as this and saying "それ must be the subject, therefore the verb must mean 'to be understood', not 'to understand'".

If I can't rely on が to mark the subject and を to mark the object, then I feel completely lost about how to know the true "direction" of verbs. Do you have any advice?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, が can be considered to indicate the subject in a sense. For instance, in the sentence 彼は無実だということがわかった, the person(s) who has/have found out he is innnocent might be "I" or "we" or police or something, but it also just means "The fact that he is innocent has been found out". Isn't it just the difference in expressions?

 

[eeky]

Yes, が can be considered to indicate the subject in a sense. For instance, in the sentence 彼は無実だということがわかった, the person(s) who has/have found out he is innnocent might be "I" or "we" or police or something, but it also just means "The fact that he is innocent has been found out". Isn't it just the difference in expressions?

I have no problem with the fact that that there are two different ways to perceive the meaning of such sentences, or translate them into English, one using a form of "to understand" (or "find out", or whatever), and the other using a form of "to be understood" (or "be found out", or whatever). However, I feel that grammatically わかる must really mean one or the other, not some indistinct fusion of the two. My previous understanding was that it strictly means "to be understood", and therefore, in 私はそれがわかりました for example, それ is the grammatical subject, even though we might perceive 私 to be the "logical" subject, and might choose to translate into an English sentence where 私 is the subject. Is this correct?

 

[Toritoribe]

わかる belongs to a group that takes the object marker が, like verbs "わかる, 要る, ある, できる", emotional/sensuous adjectives "好き, 嫌い, 憎い, 痛い", the potential form of verbs, the -tai form of verbs. Indeed が can be interpreted to indicate the subject in がわかる, but が is often interchangeable to を in these verbs/adjectives, and the meaning is basically not changed in both が and を. So, linguists thought it's reasonable to treat ～が as the object.
This has much to do with the 「は・が文」 issue in Japanese grammar, i.e, a well-known problem "What is the subject of 象は鼻が長い".

 

[eeky]

So, do you think that the strictly correct dictionary translation of わかる ought to be "to understand", or "to be understood", or do you think it is indeterminate and depends on one's interpretation of the particular sentence in which it is used?

 

[Toritoribe]

I take the last one. 事実がわかる indeed has a nuance 事実 is the subject, i.e., "to be understood" , as you interpret, whereas in the structure subjectが～をわかる, わかる can't be "to be understood".