として / で / って / 表す / 不用心なので

eeky · 23 Jul 2012

Hi,

1. 駅のそばのデパートで、なんか手みやげでも買って行くとして・・・。

My translation: "We should go and buy a present or something at the department store next to the station."

What is the purpose of として here?

2. 何の冒険もしないなら、何も得られない。

Is 得られない potential form (as opposed to passive)?

3. いいえ、何のお構いもしませんで・・・。

I'm assuming this is some polite modesty from the host, who is saying that the hospitality he offered is nothing, right? But what is the purpose of で? Is it for emphasis, a bit like よ?

4.
もっとゆっくりしていってください。
もっとゆっくりしてってください。

Do these mean the same? Is って = いって = 行って, with the sense of "continue doing"?

5. In the sense of "to express" or "to show", are there any rules about when 表す is pronounced あらわす or ひょうす? I did not realise the second pronunciation even existed until I just spotted it in the dictionary...

6. 不用心なので、客が玄関のドアを出たら、中からすぐにカギをかける。

I believe the second part of this means "When the guest leaves, lock the front door straight away from the inside."

However, I do not really get 不用心なので. It seems the opposite of the logical explanation. Does it mean that you should lock the door because it's insecure if you don't lock it, with the "if you don't" part left implied but unstated?

Glenn · 23 Jul 2012

1. Hmm... it's a derivative of 行くとする I'm sure, so it must be a sort of roundabout or indirect way of making the suggestion, I would guess. I don't have a good feel for it, though.

2. Yes, I believe so.

3. You are right about the meaning. 何のお構いも～ませんで seems to be a set expression. I'm not totally sure what the function of で is here either, but I do know that it is used like よ in western dialects. I can't say that's where it comes from here, though.

4. Yes, unless していって is して言って.

5. I didn't realize it had that reading either. My guess is that you'd only read it ひょうす in pretty formal settings, so あらわす would be the much more common reading.

6. 不用心 also has a meaning of a dangerous situation.

２物騒なこと。また、そのさま。「夜道の一人歩きは―だ」
2. Dangerous/unsafe. Or, in that manner. "It's not safe to walk outside at night by yourself."
不用心

undrentide · 23 Jul 2012

何のお構いもしませんで（すみません／申し訳ありません）
A typical expression often used when the visitor is leaving, something like 'I'm sorry I did not bother myself to entertain/offer food and drinks enough to you (even though you took the trouble of visiting me)."
One may say this to be polite, even the he/she offered food/drinks more than enough! ;-)

Glenn · 23 Jul 2012

So can it be said that ～ませんで is a formal negative ～て form? If すみません/申し訳ありません is just left off, it seems to be functioning that way.

Toritoribe · 23 Jul 2012

1)
The speaker is going to say another thing they should do before visiting the place. Does 買っていくのはいいとしても、、、 make sense?

2)
I don't think 得られる is actually used as the passive form.

3)
It can be considered a polite form of ～なくて.

何のお構いもしなくて --> 何のお構いもしませんで

Strictly speaking, this で is more likely a particle rather than a conjugation suffix, though.

4)
And the interpritation "stay and go (home/to the next place)" is also possible.

5)
As Glenn-san guessed correctly, ひょうす has a nuance of written words or formal words. Unlike あらわす, ひょうす is mostly used when people who express something is the subject, and not when the thing is the subject. For instance, in the sentence この紋章は王者の位を表す, 表す is あらわす and not ひょうす. Furthermore, there are some expressions that ひょうす is preferred as a collocation, like 敬意を表す. (And when it's 表する, the reading is always ひょうする, of course.)

6)
Grammatically, the both interpritations; （世の中が）物騒だから(since the world is dangerous) and そうしないと危ないから (since it's dangerous if you don't lock it) are possible. But 不用心 can't be used as the same usage as 物騒, thus, 世の中が無用心 is not used. The subject of 無用心 must be a situation like 夜道の一人歩き, 留守がち or person. I think it means そうしないと無用心なので here, as eeky-san interpreted.

Glenn · 23 Jul 2012

Toritoribe said:
Strictly speaking, this で is more likely a particle rather than a conjugation suffix, though.

Do you mean that just from the point of view that ません can't take a ～て form? I'm guessing it's kind of splitting hairs at this point though, right?

Toritoribe said:
6) Grammatically, the both interpritations; （世の中が）物騒だから(since the world is dangerous) and そうしないと危ないから (since it's dangerous if you don't lock it) are possible. But 不用心 can't be used as the same usage as 物騒, thus, 世の中が無用心 is not used. The subject of 無用心 must be a situation like 夜道の一人歩き, 留守がち or person. I think it means そうしないと無用心なので here, as eeky-san interpreted.

Oooohhhh, interesting. It's kind of crazy to me that you can just leave そうしないと out like that. That seems like a pretty important part of the sentence.

Toritoribe · 23 Jul 2012

Glenn said:
Do you mean that just from the point of view that ません can't take a ～て form? I'm guessing it's kind of splitting hairs at this point though, right?

Yes, but I should have said "a polite form of ないで" instead of "～なくて".

何のお構いもしないで --> 何のお構いもしませんで

Glenn said:
Oooohhhh, interesting. It's kind of crazy to me that you can just leave そうしないと out like that. That seems like a pretty important part of the sentence.

The following examples seem to have the same structure.

溺れるので、浮き輪につかまって泳いだ。
迷うので、カーナビを使う。

Glenn · 24 Jul 2012

I see. Somehow those made more sense. Probably because I'm more familiar with 溺れる and 迷う, which would mean that it's got more to do with familiarity with the vocabulary than grammar in this case, as I was suspecting it might.

eeky · 24 Jul 2012

Toritoribe said:
1)
The speaker is going to say another thing they should do before visiting the place. Does 買っていくのはいいとしても、、、 make sense?

I'm not sure to be honest. The context is two work colleagues discussing a visit to the home of their 課長 for 新築祝. The first guy has suggested that they meet at 12 at the station, but the second guy says that they need to get a bus from the station, and they also shouldn't turn up without some kind of present (i.e., they should probably meet earlier). Then the second guys says the 駅のそばのデパートで、なんか手みやげでも買って行くとして・・・ sentence. Does that shed any more light?

Incidentally, regarding (3), does ～ませんでして exist?

Toritoribe · 24 Jul 2012

Maybe they are talking about what time they should meet in the next sentence, something like なんか手みやげでも買って行くとして･･･、１１時半くらいにする? If so, 行くとして is a conditinal clause; 行くとすると.

eeky said:
Incidentally, regarding (3), does ～ませんでして exist?

No, since ～ませんです doesn't exist.

eeky · 24 Jul 2012

Yes, thanks, you are correct, the next contentful sentence is １１時半に待ち合わせしましょうか。

Does ～ませんでした notionally derive from ～ませんです even though the latter does not exist separately? Or does ～ませんでした have a separate existence / derivation?

Glenn · 24 Jul 2012

My understanding was that でした was there just to show tense, a lot like です・でした being put after adjectives to show politeness.

Toritoribe · 24 Jul 2012

Yes, that's right. Linguists categorize this でした into a category "non-inflectional suffixes", which just shows the past tense in this case, as same as です in the polite forms of i-adjectives, which just show the politeness(e.g. 高いです, 高くないです, 高かったです,,,,).

として / で / って / 表す / 不用心なので

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Glenn

一切皆苦

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Glenn

一切皆苦

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Glenn

一切皆苦

eeky

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

eeky

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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