でいる

[eeky]

カーテンをひっぱがして、おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいるところを、見てやるぞ。

Hi, what is でいる doing here? I guess that いる modifies ところ, and it is essentially talking about the place where the addressee is located in that state of dress, but I don't really understand how で links to what precedes it.

 

[Toritoribe]

ところ doesn't mean "place/location" here. It's more likely "scene/situation". へや着を着たままの姿でいるのを見てやるぞ makes sense, maybe?

 

[eeky]

ところ doesn't mean "place/location" here. It's more likely "scene/situation". へや着を着たままの姿でいるのを見てやるぞ makes sense, maybe?

I understand what you're saying about 窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ and 窶堙? but I still don't see the purpose of 窶堙?

 

[Yzlot]

It means exactly what で and いる mean separately. で is a marker attributing to 姿, and together, they mean current, present, existing,

 

[eeky]

The difficulty I have is understanding what で expresses. Does it mean おまえがいる "with" へや着を着たままの姿?

 

[Toritoribe]

This で can be considered "the -te form of copula", i.e., the meaning of "a noun / the stem of na-adjective + でいる" is equivalent to "～ている".

 

[eeky]

Originally I was assuming that へや着を着たままの姿で was a noun phrase + particle giving more information/context about おまえがいるところ. It seems this is incorrect?

Should I understand it as おまえがへや着を着たままの姿だ, with a kind of "inflection" to ～でいる, and then the whole thing modifying ところ?

 

[Toritoribe]

Even if the order of the words is へや着を着たままの姿でおまえがいるところ, the difference in meaning is subtle. So, your initial interpretation can be possible. But the original order おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいるところ focuses more on the "state" she is in because of the connotation of ～でいる. On the other hand, the focus of へや着を着たままの姿でおまえがいるところ is on her existence. Further, ところ can even mean the location she is in in this order. Anyway, the writer chose that order to make clear what s/he wanted to express, and the readers interpret it.

 

[eeky]

Toritoribe, regarding my second point, could you clarify whether おまえがへや着を着たままの姿だ is a correct phrase, and whether, at least in one interpretation, the でいる of the original sentence is an inflection of this だ?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, but it's awkward as a stand-alone sentence. A context is needed, for instance, 俺が見たいのは、おまえがへや着を着たままの姿だ.

 

[eeky]

Thanks,

1. In your sentence, 俺が見たいのは、おまえがへや着を着たままの姿だ, is 俺が見たいの the subject of だ?

2. If it is, then おまえ is not the subject of any verb, despite being marked by が, right?

3. In the sentence カーテンをひっぱがして、おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいるところを、見てやるぞ, what is the subject of でいる? I was thinking it was おまえ (making the grammar somewhat different from your example), but now I'm not sure.

Thank you for your help with this. There are aspects of the grammar which I do not understand and I would like to get straight in my head.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
That's a noun sentence "A is B".

見たいのは姿だ。

2)
The subject of 着た, of course.

3)
What do you think about お前が立ったまま寝ているのを見た "I saw you slept standing up"? お前 is the subject of 立った so 寝ている doesn't have any subject, or vice versa?

 

[eeky]

1. Yeah, that's what I meant.

2. Yeah, I know that of course but was just having a brain fade.

3. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would guess in お前が立ったまま寝ている that お前 is the subject of both verbs and まま is some kind of adverbial connector. Even if correct that doesn't help me much, though, because ～まま in the original appears to be a noun as it is followed by の姿, and to me it seems like おまえがへや着を着たままの姿 is a noun phrase. Therefore I am none the wiser, unfortunately.

 

[Toritoribe]

OK, how about this?
彼女がきれいでいるのは、恋をしているからだ。
彼女がきれいなままでいるのは、恋をしているからだ。
彼女がきれいな姿でいるのは、恋をしているからだ。

and these ones?

きれいで彼女がいるのは、恋をしているからだ。
きれいなままで彼女がいるのは、恋をしているからだ。
きれいな姿で彼女がいるのは、恋をしているからだ。

Only the fourth one sounds odd, so there would be difference in the connection between "na-adjective + でいる" and "noun + でいる".

 

[eeky]

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid I am totally lost. If you can think of a way to directly explain in English the grammar of でいる in おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいるところ then that would be great. Unfortunately I am past the stage where further hints or examples and analogies in Japanese are going to help.

 

[Toritoribe]

to be in the state of ~

 

[Elizabeth]

ところ doesn't mean "place/location" here. It's more likely "scene/situation". へや着を着たままの姿でいるのを見てやるぞ makes sense, maybe?

So to create a more familiar example newspaper style example: 腕に血のようなものを付けたまま。。。。の走り去る姿でいるのを目撃 されている could be translated closer to the slightly gibberishy English 'witnessed the scene of a figure running away (somewhere) with what looks like blood on their arm" Normally of course that is truncated to 姿を目撃 without a significant loss of meaning. The use of ところ（走り去る姿でいるところを）looks beyond normal for some reason, at least not acceptable as I have seen 姿 referring particularly to still being in a state of dress or physical appearance.

 

[Toritoribe]

走り去る姿でいる is semantically odd, since 走り去る expresses an action "to run away from a location", whereas 姿でいる means "to stay/exist in a location in the state of~". Those two expressions can't coexist together.

Google search result
走り去る姿でいる: 0 hit

 

[eeky]

to be in the state of ~

Thanks. The puzzling thing to me is why this has confused me so much; why I am not familiar with this simple-looking pattern.

 

[Toritoribe]

I think one of the reasons would be a fact that the particle で and a conjugation form of だ have the same (or at least very close) etymology. It's sometimes anbiguous.

 

[eeky]

1. I assume that this でいる is used only for human/animate subjects, yes?

2. Also, I assume that the "state" that she is in is "the state of へや着を着たままの姿" (even though that does not work exactly literally in English), yes?

 

[Toritoribe]

You might get to the heart of the problem. Hmm, yeah, this いる can't be used for inanimated things, unlike a grammatical aspect ～ている. So, we should treat へや着を着たままの姿で as an adverbial phrase.

 

[eeky]

Just curious ... Does おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいる work as a standalone sentence?

 

[Toritoribe]

おまえがへや着を着たままの姿でいた works. (or, a habit おまえはいつもへや着を着たままの姿でいる for the present form)

 

[eeky]

Thanks...

I lost my way a bit earlier in this thread, but now it seems clearer to me.