って / ～ろう / 飛んどった / せん / ちゅう / 返してきます

[eeky]

Hi,


1. もう手が冷たくって。

Translation given: "My hand's getting too cold."

What って is this? Could it be emphatic 冷たくて?


2. 問題はなかったろうね？
一生残るじゃろう。
早くすませたほうがよかろう。

While I get a general idea of what these mean, is this ～ろう actually a contraction of something longer? Assuming these are informal(?) what would be the formal equivalents?

Is there any difference between よかろう and よかったろう, or なかろう and なかったろう, or じゃろう and だろう?


3. ブリストルの上空を飛んどった時に、・・・

What is 飛んどった? (Obviously I know the verb 飛ぶ, but I don't understand the ending.)


4. たとえできたとしても、わしは何もせんよ。

What is せん?


5. ブラック家のシリウスっちゅう若者に借りたんで。

What ちゅう is this?


6. シリウスにバイクを返してきますだ。

Does 返してきます mean "(go and) return (the bike) and then come back"? I thought so, but Google Translate (not that I trust it much) says "I will have to return the bike to Sirius", and I'm wondering where the sense of "have to" is coming from...

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Right.

2)
問題はなかったろうね？ ＝ 問題はなかっただろうね？
一生残るじゃろう。 ＝ 一生残るだろう。
早くすませたほうがよかろう。 ＝ 早くすませたほうがいいだろう。

ろう is a (classical) auxiliary verb for presumptive. It's equivalet to だろう in modern Japanese. As you can see above, よかろう/なかろう is present whereas よかったろう/なかったろう is past.

じゃろう is old men's way of speech as same as のう, わしゃ or でな. It's the contraction of であろう.

3)
It's the contraction of 飛んでおった. You can think it 飛んでいた. This is also old men's speech.

4)
しない

5)
という/っていう

6)
Your interpretation is correct. It doesn't mean "have to".
BTW, doesn't 返してきますだ sound strange for you?

 

[eeky]

Thanks Toritoribe,

2. I notice in one place you have じゃろう as だろう and in another it's であろう. Both those are somewhat familiar to me, but what, if anything, is the difference? Is であろう more formal?

4. Is this an example of a general pattern, or is せん a one-off? What sort of language is this? Is it more old men's talk?

6. Well, だ on the end doesn't look familiar, but then again these dialogues are strewn with unfamiliar contractions and (to me) random-looking syllables plonked here there and everywhere...

 

[letianchen]

I think number 4 can be kansai dialect, a character in a manga I was reading who uses kansai dialect said
俺もしっかりせんとな( which is しないといけない)

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
The etymologies of じゃ and だ are both である, thus, じゃろう and だろう are both the same as であろう. The difference is; であろう is more classical/formal, だろう is more colloquial and じゃろう is more dialectal or specific to old men.

4)
何もせんよ is also old men's way of speech, but せん is also used in idiomatic usages, proverbs or dialects.

せ: the imperfective form(未然形) of a classical verb す (= する in modern Japanese)
ん: the n-euphonic change of the conclusive form(終止形) of a negative auxiliary verb ぬ (= ない in modern Japanese)

6)
It's a typical (imaginary) rural dialect. It shows that the speaker is unrefined. Samwise Gamgee uses the similar language in the old translation version of The Lord of the Rings.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

6)
It's a typical (imaginary) rural dialect. It shows that the speaker is from a rural area. Samwise Gamgee uses the similar language in the old translation version of The Lord of the Rings.

Sorry to totally tangent the thread, but... the 'old translation'? Does this mean that there's a newer translation where Sam -doesn't- use a rural dialect? That would seem strange to me.

(I kind of plan to read the Japanese translation of Lord of the Rings one day, so I wonder. I have some number of Harry Potter translations and light novels of Japanese origin to read first though, so who knows when or if.)

 

[Toritoribe]

The Lord of the Rings was translated first by a translator 瀬田貞二 in 1972-75, but later his pupil 田中明子 retranslated it in 1992. She still used this dialect for Sam's words but changed it in some words. (Well, I've only read 瀬田貞二 version. I've just heard this somewhere.) 瀬田貞二 version is not available now.

 

[eeky]

Thanks Toritoribe, sometimes the number of new word forms, contractions, patterns and just "stuff" that I have never seen mentioned anywhere seems endless. It seems that there is so much more variation than in English. (But maybe I just don't notice it in English; after all, this "返してきますだ" character does say stuff like "an' poor little Harry off ter live with Muggles" and "G'night", and I don't suppose "an'", "ter" and "G'night" feature in many English language textbooks either...)

 

[eeky]

Oh, by the way, for interest, do you know where the か comes from in よかろう/なかろう/etc.?

I was kind of thinking it was from よかった/なかった/etc., but maybe not?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, 返してきますだ is NO DOUBT treated as a mistake in textbooks or Japanese classes.

よかろう/なかろう and よかった/なかった are from よくあらむ/なくあらむ and よくありたる/なくありたる, respectively. (あら/あり is from あり（＝ある）, む is for presumptive, たる is from たり for past.) Thus, かs are all from "く + あ" here.

 

[eeky]

Thanks, that's interesting to know.

 

[Morphling]

I thought 良かろう and 無かろう is simply 良い 無い in 未然形 form + 助動詞 う。didn't know about all the other stuff.

 

[Toritoribe]

よい/いい and ない are adjective. It doesn't have 未然形. ;-)
あらむ is from あり + む.

あり: あらむ --> あらう --> あろう
返す: 返さむ --> 返さう --> 返そう

This is why あろ or 返そ is treated as a 未然形 for the sake of convenience in modern Japanese grammar.

 

[Morphling]

って / 〜ろう / 飛んどった / せん / ちゅう / 返してきます

ウィキペディアによりますと、形容詞も形容動詞もちゃんと未然形があるようで、口語では「a+ろ」のようです。
よい->よかろ
美しい->美しかろ
ない->なかろ

ク活用にもシク活用にも適用するようです。

 

[Toritoribe]

なるほど。学校文法ではいまだにそういう用法だったん ですね。失礼しました。ノンネイティブの学習者がよく 使われている言語学文法では「ク形」等の用語の方が一 般的なもので。

 

[Elizabeth]

Hi,


1. もう手が冷たくって。

Translation given: "My hand's getting too cold."

What って is this? Could it be emphatic 冷たくて?

Sorry to bring this thread down again without having read the intervening posts but I thought this was the form used in conversational speech ???
冷たくって
↑話ことば

もう手が冷たくて
↑書き言葉

もう
↑多分、強調

 

[Toritoribe]

The answer is no.


かきたくってたまらずにかいたものはいいに決まっている。
明日はいい日にしようしよう 小池邦夫著

だから一方には自分の勢力が示したくって、しかもそんなに人に害を与えたくないと云う場合には、
吾輩は猫である 夏目漱石著

もう、うちたくって 、うちたくって、気が狂いそうだった。
三角館の恐怖 江戸川乱歩著

洋風といってもお正月気分をテーブルに演出したくって考えたのがこのメニュー。
飛田和緒のおもてなし12か月ようこそ！わが家のテーブルへ 飛田和緒著

このときの乙姫様の心境も聞きたくって
のほほん市中探検記 桂さと子著

大体、なりたくって仕様がない自薦他薦組が一杯いるのに、
ガンと戦った昭和史 塚本憲甫と医師たち 塚本哲也著