じゃ and では

[Glenn]

I wouldn't worry about slang or dirty words until I could at least understand directions to the bathroom.

 

[kohlrak]

eh, but at the same time... i was pointing out that they don't teach you that. It's considered bad grammar, they almost always teach you "good grammar" which is done by their interpretation anyway. =p

 

[Elizabeth]

And the books that say "may" is the only correct way, are the books that are written by people who interpret "correct english" their own way. The people who speak english in general should decide what is correct. The difference between "may i" and "can i" is simply a thing conjured up to make some one look like they have more refined speech than another. I really see "may i" as a pointless phrase that is rarely used.

"May I please...." isn't more refined but not being as soft-sounding does bring more a feeling of urgency and selfish desire, less consideration for the other party, to the request than "Can I." This is something I'm going to do anyone, but please at least give your tacit permission could be the intended effect.

"May I" still plays a role in polite interactions or when asking for an inordinately large favor.

 

[kohlrak]

Exaclty... Which is what i'm saying.. Random people who people call the athority on proper english are deciding what is proper and what is not. They're the ones writing the english books. And with more and more slang, the static "proper english" becomes further and further from what english speakers really say.

 

[Elizabeth]

Exaclty... Which is what i'm saying.. Random people who people call the athority on proper english are deciding what is proper and what is not. They're the ones writing the english books. And with more and more slang, the static "proper english" becomes further and further from what english speakers really say.

Well, this is a forum on Japanese learning after all, so pardon the confusion. I both wouldn't erase "May I" from English textbooks or recommend beginning Japanese with slang. It's difficult enough to make yourself understood and comprehend with every other word a homonym and sounding like 10 others, trying to be trendy or cute on top of it will leave a very unfavorable impression.

Slang/colloquialisms/unstandard speech will come and go but as a solid foundation and ever-ready backup better to get a solid grasp of the basics before proceeding _any further_ here with recommendations for students of
ESL.

 

[kohlrak]

I would erase may i, since i almost never hear it.. Or i'd put it as a footnote. lol and yes, i noticed that about japanese... I would imagin puns are more common in japanese. Some of which are so common they're annoying. But that's just a random guess based on nothing. Too many words sound alike. I'm starting to wonder if japanese's vocabulary rivals that of english... lol

 

[Elizabeth]

I would erase may i, since i almost never hear it.. Or i'd put it as a footnote.

Could be the company you keep, too.... May I certainly is still used widely enough to be considered self-effacing and courteous so to not present it would leave a bizarre gap in the student's knowledge and English ability.

 

[kohlrak]

In a matter of 10 years we'll completely forget it's existance... the sad part would be that it would still be written in text books for years to come because it's considered proper english, even if 10 years down the road no one would use it.

 

[Elizabeth]

Over generations maybe, not decades....besides they'd obviously have to still read older material of which "may" is an integral part. One of my Japanese texts is from the mid 60's and there aren't any grammar lessons that I would consider wholly obsolete, only a handful of archaic words or expressions.

 

[KrazyKat]

In a matter of 10 years we'll completely forget it's existance... the sad part would be that it would still be written in text books for years to come because it's considered proper english, even if 10 years down the road no one would use it.

I do not see why you do not consider "May I" to be proper English. It had over 34 million hits on my Google search. That certainly suggests that it's worth teaching.

And yeah, it is possible to see steam rising from my head when I see books that delude students into thinking that "Can I, Can you" are the correct way of asking for permission and favors.

I would see any book that taught students not to use "Can I..." as seriously flawed.

 

[kohlrak]

I do not see why you do not consider "May I" to be proper English. It had over 34 million hits on my Google search. That certainly suggests that it's worth teaching.

Not used as much, but if i were you i'd check for recursive hits.

But "can" is a correct way of talking about permission.

According to "proper english grammar" it isn't. Thus why it's likely not to be taught in a "learning english" book. I'll ask my friend who learned english in germany and see if she recalls "can i?"

 

[KrazyKat]

Not used as much, but if i were you i'd check for recursive hits.
According to "proper english grammar" it isn't. Thus why it's likely not to be taught in a "learning english" book. I'll ask my friend who learned english in germany and see if she recalls "can i?"

Good luck finding a credible textbook that doesn't teach "can I"
Is "proper English grammar" a book? I couldn't find it on amazon.

 

[kohlrak]

Buy a grade school textbook to english... (Not another language to english, just english.)

 

[The7thSamurai]

I use 'may I' about 5 times a day. What type of English are you speaking?

 

[kohlrak]

I use 'may I' about 5 times a day. What type of English are you speaking?

Well, they have different dialects. I speak the American dialect. And the only time i ever hear "may" is in the following situation.

Girl: Can i go to the bathroom?
Teacher: I don't know, can you?
Girl: Maaaaaaaay, i go to the bathroom?

Then you turn around and if some one interupts the class, you'll humerously hear them say,

Teacher: Can i teach my class?

But no one ever comments cause half of us get in enough trouble as it is.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Maybe you speak a crappy version of American English? I've found that Americans, particularly from the south, speak using quite a refined version of English. But then again, those Americans are the ones I've met abroad so maybe they're different.

 

[kohlrak]

So there's a "crappy" version?

 

[The7thSamurai]

Yep. "Crappy" is when people can't spell, have bad grammar, and use words in the wrong context.

 

[kohlrak]

That's quite a statement. It's such things that give color and colour different spellings. It's called, "dialect." And who are you to say what is correct and what isn't correct spelling...?

crap·py ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krp)
adj. Vulgar Slang crap·pi·er, crap·pi·est
Inferior; worthless.
Miserable; poorly.
Mean; contemptible.

Slang happens to come from this "crappy" language use as well.

 

[JimmySeal]

Maybe you speak a crappy version of American English? I've found that Americans, particularly from the south, speak using quite a refined version of English. But then again, those Americans are the ones I've met abroad so maybe they're different.

That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

 

[kohlrak]

That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

I could think of examples of what some people would consider bad english that came from the south, but then not only would i be a hyprocite, but at the same time i'd be makin' fun of the south, of which i have no intention of doing.

 

[The7thSamurai]

That's quite a statement. It's such things that give color and colour different spellings. It's called, "dialect."

Here's some colourful spelling:
humerously
imagin

 

[kohlrak]

Here's some colourful spelling:
humerously
imagin

i fail to see the point in that... Do explain it...

 

[Glenn]

That's funny. When I try to think of an entire area of the US where English has been significantly degraded, my thoughts instantly turn to the American South.

That's interesting. Why is that? By the way, if you were to think of a population who has significantly degraded English, who would you think of?

 

[kohlrak]

When you think about it... After about 50 years they've all been degraded... With the introduction of computers and lazy typers, you'll find intresting combinations such as "koi29" instead of "Quoi de neuf". lol I can see us writing storys 100 years down the road in school. "Once upon a time, there was a cow. This cow said 'j00 r0xx0rs mi s0xx0rs!'"