おって / で / やられる

[eeky]

Hi,


1. 「ムチャクチャな音を出して走りおって。チンピラどもが。」

(father is grumbling about motorcyclists)

What is this おって?

2. ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿がダドリーそっくりだ。あれで金髪だったらな・・・・。

a) In the last sentence I suppose that あれ refers to the gorilla(?), but what is the purpose of で?

b) In this children's book from time to time they use non-Joyo kanji such as 掻 here (with furigana, as is the case for all non-easy kanji). I understand that many non-Joyo kanji are in quite widespread general use, but is it usual to see them in children's books?


3. 物置で寝起きする方がまだましだ。ドアをドンドンやられるのはペチュニアおばさんが朝起こしに来る時だけだし、・・・

Is やられる the passive of やる? What sense of やる, and why passive?


4. ダドリーは、ガラスに鼻を押しつけて、ツヤツヤと光る茶色のとぐろを見つめていた。

In this sentence the word とぐろ has dots next to the characters. Is this again to help the reader to understand that とぐろ is one word? (Is it really that hard to tell? Is とぐろ an unusual word?)


5. ・・・かわりにお気に入りのハリー殴りを始めるかもしれないと思い・・・

Here ハリー殴 has dots next to the characters. Is this to show that ハリー殴 should be read as one phrase? Or for emphasis?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
That's the -te form of おる, which is old men's way of saying やがる.

おる〔をる〕【居る】
３ 動詞の連用形に付いて用いる。
㋐（相手を軽蔑する気持ちを込めて）…やがる。 「あんなやつに負け―・って」

おる【居る】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

As in the dictionary linked above, it's used to blame the addressee or doer connoting contempt.

2) a)
Yes, it refers to the gorilla. あの姿で/あの格好で makes sense?

b)
I don't think Harry Potter is aimed only at children.

3)
It's the passive of adversity, meaning 叩かれる here.

4)
Yes for all the questions. とぐろ is mostly used only in a set phrase とぐろを巻く. (To tell the truth, I thought it would be a typo of どくろ at first.)

5)
Aren't the dots put next to ハリー殴り? If so, it's the former.

 

[eeky]

Thanks Toritoribe,

2a) あの姿で and あの格好で would make sense in a case where I understood the purpose of で. However, in this case of あれで金髪だったらな, or either of those substitutions, I do not understand the function of で or how it connects the two parts.

2b) However, I think this must be a children's edition since it has furigana on all the kanji except the easy ones.

5) Oh yeah, sorry, it should be ハリー殴り.

 

[Toritoribe]

2) a)
あの姿 / あの格好 refers to 頭を掻いている姿.

If the gorilla were blond-haired and scratched its head (, it would look like Dudley more remarkably).

2) b)
I believe that there is only one edition of the Japanese translation of Harry Potter. It's no wonder that a book has firigana in order to children can read it. (And it doesn't mean it's aimed only for children.)

 

[eeky]

2a) I'm sorry, I'm lost with this. I thought the gorilla did scratch its head, no?

I understand that あの姿 / あの格好 refers to 頭を掻いている姿. I also assume that あれ refers to the same thing (or to the gorilla generally). I also understand that 金髪だったらな is saying something like "if only (the gorilla) had blond hair (then it would look even more like Dudley)". What I don't understand is what で means. Can you think of any way to explain the purpose of the word で in the original sentence?

2b) Oh, so adults don't feel silly reading books with lots of furigana?

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

2. ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿がダドリーそっくりだ。あれで金髪だったらな・・・・。

I've always taken this passage to mean,
"When the gorilla scratched his head he looked just like Dudley. Well, would have if he were blonde."
I don't really understand this usage of で, but I do understand the first sentence in the passage to be literal - the gorilla scratched his head; and the second passage to be hypothetical, 'if he was blonde'.
I basically took で to be the て form of the copula here and not the particle, if that helps.

Also, while I'm not Japanese, I think I can safely say the Japanese Harry Potter is very much published as an adolescent (aka 'young adult') novel. Actual 'children's' books of which I've read a few are almost entirely kana and really obnoxiously hard to read for a non-native. Light novels aimed at teens and twenties have lots of furigana, and fully adult novels (if 推理小説 qualify, in the U.S. we'd call them 'genre' novels and consider them 'easier' than 'real literature', or at least that's the preception), ahem, anyway the crime novels I've read have furigana for 'hard' characters - mostly anything non-Jouyou - and for non-standard readings.

 

[letianchen]

what is it meant in 3 ドアをドンドンやられる, by passive of adversity like toritobe said. why use やる verb instead of 叩く if these are the same, or is there a meaning of yaru which can be "to bang on a door"

 

[undrentide]

ドンドンする means to bang (on something). The onomatopoeia ドンドン (the banging sound = noun) + する (verb)
やる is another word to 'do' (similar to する) but often used to express additional feelings or connotation, it could sounds more rough, not polite, etc. In this case saying ドンドンやられる instead of ドンドンされる shows the speaker's annoyance.

 

[Toritoribe]

2) a)
I, too, think it's the -te form of copula. The followings make sense?

あれ/あの格好で金髪だったらもっとそっくりだ。
金髪であれ/あの格好だったらもっとそっくりだ。
頭を掻いていて金髪だったらもっとそっくりだ。
金髪で頭を掻いていたらもっとそっくりだ。

2) b)
In Japan, so many adults read manga which have furigana for almost all kanji.

what is it meant in 3 ドアをドンドンやられる, by passive of adversity like toritobe said.

Need a Kanji Translated? Just ask! | Japan Forum

 

[eeky]

Also, while I'm not Japanese, I think I can safely say the Japanese Harry Potter is very much published as an adolescent (aka 'young adult') novel.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. Perhaps "children's book" was misleading; I didn't mean it was for five-year-olds.

 

[eeky]

2) a)
I, too, think it's the -te form of copula. The followings make sense?

あれ/あの格好で金髪だったらもっとそっくりだ。
金髪であれ/あの格好だったらもっとそっくりだ。
頭を掻いていて金髪だったらもっとそっくりだ。
金髪で頭を掻いていたらもっとそっくりだ。

I'm sorry Toritoribe, I don't understand what you're getting at. I think only explanations in English are going to help me...

Temporarily ignoring あれで, does the following make sense, and is the following what is implied?

ゴリラ（が頭を掻いている姿）が／は金髪だったら

I don't know if you can say this...

 

[Toritoribe]

ゴリラが金髪だったら makes sense, but ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿が金髪だったら doesn't. It should be ゴリラが頭を掻いていて、金髪だったら (and this is what the original sentence means).

 

[eeky]

So breaking the sentence into parts, does it mean:

i) ゴリラがあれだ
ii) ゴリラが（頭を掻いていて）金髪だったら（もっとそっくりだ）

?

(i) doesn't look right to me, and I don't understand why you would say it. However, if で is the -te form of the copula then how else to interpret it?

 

[Toritoribe]

ゴリラがあれだ

?

Where does this come from?

ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿が金髪だったら doesn't make sense, but ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿で金髪だったら can be what the original means, too.

 

[eeky]

ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿で金髪だったら can be what the original means, too.

I think/hope I almost get it now ... so does ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿だ make sense as a sentence by itself?

ゴリラがあれだ

?

Where does this come from?

I made it up. It doesn't look to me as if it makes sense, or is anything sensible to say in the circumstance, but I proposed it just as a way of trying to illustrate what I didn't understand.

 

[raguna]

あれで、refers to the previously mentioned situation. So for example: The gorilla is scratching it's head. Like that, if it was Blond, it would be even more similar. ("Like that" is a poor translation, but I couldn't think of something else on the spot.) Hopefully this clears up what's confusing you about あれで

 

[Toritoribe]

I think/hope I almost get it now ... so does ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿だ make sense as a sentence by itself?

Yes, not as a stand-alone sentence, but as a part of a sentence, e.g., 彼が見ているのは、ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿だ. (It's just a predicative, so the subject/topic is usually needed for a stand-alone sentence.)

 

[eeky]

あれで、refers to the previously mentioned situation. So for example: The gorilla is scratching it's head. Like that, if it was Blond, it would be even more similar. ("Like that" is a poor translation, but I couldn't think of something else on the spot.) Hopefully this clears up what's confusing you about あれで

Fundamentally I understand Aが／はBだ to mean "A is B" (I'm not wanting to start a debate about this per se, except to the extent that it is necessary to bottom out the question).

If で in あれで is the -te form of the copula, then I understand あれで to be an inflection of あれだ, and per the above I would expect this to imply Aが／はあれだ, even if A is not actually stated. So if あれ is the situation then what is A? This is kind of what I was getting at with ゴリラがあれだ above, but Toritoribe didn't like that.

So where am I going wrong?

 

[Glenn]

ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿がダドリーそっくりだ。あれで金髪だったらな・・・・。

Is this a legal rephrasing?

ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿で金髪だったら、ダドリーそっくりだ。

 

[raguna]

Fundamentally I understand Aが／はBだ to mean "A is B" (I'm not wanting to start a debate about this per se, except to the extent that it is necessary to bottom out the question).

If で in あれで is the -te form of the copula, then I understand あれで to be an inflection of あれだ, and per the above I would expect this to imply Aが／はあれだ, even if A is not actually stated. So if あれ is the situation then what is A? This is kind of what I was getting at with ゴリラがあれだ above, but Toritoribe didn't like that.

So where am I going wrong?

I would actually argue that you could say ゴリラがあれだ、if all parties are aware of the matter at hand (that it's scratching it's head). But in writing it doesn't make sense plus it is suuper colloquial, which is why he reacted I guess? (Feel free to correct me tori) So in a sense you're correct to interpret it that way, but あれで、doesn't really mean the same as あれだ。

Like I tried to explain, it refers back to the situation at hand, and in this context I interpret it's function to be adding a certain "as long as that situation remains" meaning to the sentence.. So the sentence would be "The appearance of the gorilla scratching it's head is similar to Dudley. In that pose, if it was Blond it would look even more..." (I have a hard time thinking of an English phrase that could serve as a direct translation, so I ended up referring back to the situation itself.)

You have to excuse me I'm not the best at explaining stuff.. and this is just my own understanding, it might even be wrong, so... sorry.

 

[Toritoribe]

Fundamentally I understand Aが／はBだ to mean "A is B" (I'm not wanting to start a debate about this per se, except to the extent that it is necessary to bottom out the question).

If で in あれで is the -te form of the copula, then I understand あれで to be an inflection of あれだ, and per the above I would expect this to imply Aが／はあれだ, even if A is not actually stated. So if あれ is the situation then what is A? This is kind of what I was getting at with ゴリラがあれだ above, but Toritoribe didn't like that.

So where am I going wrong?

It's no problem with ゴリラが金髪であれだったら. I think the problem is in your assumption "if で is the -te form of copula, ～で must be rephrased with ～だ in all the cases". ゴリラはあれだ is correct. In this sentence, あれ performs as a demonstrative which refers to the topic the speaker is talking about. I think あれ can't be a pronoun which describes a state such like ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿 in the predicative あれだ.

 

[raguna]

It's no problem with ゴリラが金髪であれだったら. I think the problem is in your assumption "if で is the -te form of copula, ～で must be rephrased with ～だ in all the cases". ゴリラはあれだ is correct. In this sentence, あれ performs as a demonstrative which refers to the topic the speaker is talking about. I think あれ can't be a pronoun which describes a state such like ゴリラが頭を掻いている姿 in the predicative あれだ.

Thank you for managing to formulate what I wanted to explain