おじさんとこ / これじゃなきゃ嫌です...

[eeky]

Hi,


1. An estate agent, previously described as おじさん is talking to a young female customer about an apartment:

やっぱり、若い女の子には世田谷が人気があるねえ。お じさんとこでもあんたで五人目だ。

I believe the first sentence means "世田谷 must be popular with young women".

The next part is just a guess for me. Could おじさんとこ mean "my/this office"? Would someone refer to themselves おじさん? Could the last sentence therefore mean "You're the fifth one (= fifth young woman) (to come to) my office (asking about this apartment)"? Even so, I can't account for で, so probably I've got it all wrong...


2. This is more of the conversation between estate agent and customer, which I am struggling with. Prior to this, it's been suggested to the customer that, given her income, she might have difficulty paying the rent on an apartment. The lines are in order:

a) 「これじゃなきゃ嫌です」

No idea what this means, or how the sentence works grammatically, though I believe なきゃ may mean なければ or なくては.

b) 「だって、あんた、家賃払えるの」

Clearly something about paying the rent, but I don't understand the overall purpose of the sentence, or whether it is a statement, question, etc.

c) 「何とかします」

My translation: "I'll get by somehow."

d) 「何とかって、いってもねえ」
こういうおじさんはマシなほうだった。

I'm guessing the estate agent says "You say you'll get by somehow..." (i.e. doubting). Is that right?

What is マシなほうだった? Does ほう refer to the manner in which the estate agent spoke?

e) The glossary says マシ means 少しだけいいいい含める：わかるように何度もいう, but I do not fully understand this. If いい含める = 言含める, then what is 少しだけいい?

I believe わかるように何度もいう means "say something over and over until it's understood". Is that right?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
おじさん refers to the speaker himself. おじさん is commonly used as a first person pronoun for middle-aged men.

You're the fifth young woman to ask about an apartment in Setagaya also in my office.

2) a)
Yes about なきゃ.
I don't want any other apartment than this.

b)
Can you pay(=keep on paying) the rent?

c)
Yes.

d)
ほう is 方, as in 片方, 一方.
He is the better one(s).

e)
That's "マシ means 少しだけいい" and "いい含める means わかるように何度もいう".
少しだけいい: a little bit better

That's more likely わかるまで何度もいう. わかるように means "in the way the listener can understand", e.g., "by rewording", "using allegories".

 

[undrentide]

Hi eeky,

1. An estate agent, previously described as おじさん is talking to a young female customer about an apartment:
やっぱり、若い女の子には世田谷が人気があるねえ。おじさんとこでもあんたで五人目だ。
I believe the first sentence means "世田谷 must be popular with young women".

The next part is just a guess for me. Could おじさんとこ mean "my/this office"?

Yes.

Would someone refer to themselves おじさん?

Yes.
おじさん here does not mean an uncle but a male in his middle age.
It is common in Japan to call someone or even oneself with the 'title' looking from a younger (youngest) member of a family.
i.e. おじいさん、おばあさん、おじさん、おばさん、おとうさん、おかあさん、おにいさん、おねえさん.
This happens outside of a real family, too, in a casual situation.

Could the last sentence therefore mean "You're the fifth one (= fifth young woman) (to come to) my office (asking about this apartment)"?

It is more likely that "you're the fifth young woman who came to me asking for an apartment in Setagaya.

Even so, I can't account for で, so probably I've got it all wrong...

Setagaya is quite popular with young women, so is at mine (office) and you're the fifth who came to ask for an apartment in Setagaya.

2. This is more of the conversation between estate agent and customer, which I am struggling with. Prior to this, it's been suggested to the customer that, given her income, she might have difficulty paying the rent on an apartment. The lines are in order:

a) 「これじゃなきゃ嫌です」
No idea what this means, or how the sentence works grammatically, though I believe なきゃ may mean なければ or なくては.

Yes.
これでなければ／なくては嫌です。
If it (= the apartment she's going to live) is not this one, I do not like/won't take it.
嫌（いや） means strong "no".

b) 「だって、あんた、家賃払えるの」
Clearly something about paying the rent, but I don't understand the overall purpose of the sentence, or whether it is a statement, question, etc.

(I do not agree to let the particular apartment you want) because, you, can you pay the rent?

c) 「何とかします」
My translation: "I'll get by somehow."

OK.

d) 「何とかって、いってもねえ」
こういうおじさんはマシなほうだった。
I'm guessing the estate agent says "You say you'll get by somehow..." (i.e. doubting). Is that right?

Yes.

What is マシなほうだった? Does ほう refer to the manner in which the estate agent spoke?

まし means better, often with negative connotation.
There's "better than nothing" feeling about it.

e) The glossary says マシ means 少しだけいいいい含める：わかるように何度もいう, but I do not fully understand this. If いい含める = 言含める, then what is 少しだけいい?

Something must be wrong with the glossary you're referring to, マシ (まし） does not have such a meaning.
It means either "addition/increase (in volume, etc.)" or "better".

少しだけいいふくめる： 少し だけ ＋ 言い含める.
It is not 少しだけいい.

I believe わかるように何度もいう means "say something over and over until it's understood". Is that right?

Yes.

I guess the glossary says 「まし」 means 「少しだけいい」
and then いい含める」 means 「わかるように何度もいう」?

---
Toritoribe san beat me, as usual!

 

[eeky]

Thank you both.
Sorry, I made a stupid mistake with that glossary entry. Obviously it is defining two different things.

Setagaya is quite popular with young women, so is at mine (office) and you're the fifth who came to ask for an apartment in Setagaya.

In お じさんとこでもあんたで五人目だ, I understand the first で to mean "at" (my office), but what does the second で mean? Is it the copula? I don't really understand the grammar that connects あんたで and 五人目だ.

d)
ほう is 方, as in 片方, 一方.
He is the better one(s).

Sorry Toritoribe, I still do not understand this. I cannot fit "He is the better one" into my understanding of the first part of the sentence. I understand:

「何とかって、いってもねえ」 = "You say you'll get by somehow..."
こういう = speaking thus,
おじさんは = the man
マシなほうだった = ????

Does it mean "the man was マシなほう"? The man was in a better way/state? I can't get it to make sense.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)

［6］ 動作・状態の主体を表す。
委員会―作成した原案
そっち―ほれても、こっち―いやだ

It's the same to が which indicates the subject.
あんたで五人目だ ＝ あんたが五人目だ "You are the fifth woman."

2) d)
Yes, he belongs to the better side. He is better than, for instance, the agents who get angry, just as あんたには払えないよ, 払えなくなったらどうするんだよ.

 

[eeky]

1)

It's the same to が which indicates the subject.

Oh, right. I'm a bit surprised that I don't recognise this use of で. Is it unusual, or very colloquial, or used only in certain special patterns, or something like that? I suppose I may have seen it before but never really scrutinised it....

2) d)
Yes, he belongs to the better side. He is better than, for instance, the agents who get angry, just as あんたには払えないよ, 払えなくなったらどうするんだよ.

Do you mean あんたには払えないよ, 払えなくなったらどうするんだよ as examples of what the angry agents might say to the client?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
It seems like the third one "being used only in certain special patterns" to me. The followings are the examples form 岩波国語辞典 and 明鏡国語辞典.

父と母とで相談した
自分で考えろ
この企画はこのチームで担当する

In these examples, including the ones in my previous post, all で indicate the subject of the verb, but also have a nuance of "by" like as the passive 委員会で作成された原案.

2)
Yes.

 

[eeky]

OK, thanks. Can I ask one more question here? In あんたには払えないよ, what is the purpose of に? In this context isn't あんた meant to be the subject of 払えない?

 

[Toritoribe]

に indicates the subject of the state verbs, whereas が is for the object, as you know.

僕（に）は英語がわからない。
I can't understand English.

に can indicate the purpose, too.

旅行にはお金が要る。
You need money for travel.

You can also think that が is the subject in these sentences.

English is incomprehensible to me.
Money is needed for travel.

 

[eeky]

Thanks, I think we've touched on this subject before, and I probably should not still be making mistakes with it. Perhaps in this case I am being put off by the fact that あんたに looks so much like あんた is the target of the payment.

1. Is it impossible for あんたには払えない to mean "(someone) cannot pay you"?

2. If that's impossible, could we in some other way make a sentence meaning "(someone) cannot pay you" using に to indicate that あんた is the target of the payment?

3. In full, could we say あんたにはお金が払えないよ to mean the same as あんたには払えないよ ?

4. Could we say あんたは払えないよ to mean the same as あんたには払えないよ ?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Yes. It's confusing, but it's possible, probably as you expected.

3)
Right. あんたには家賃が/は払えないよ is more appropriate here, though. What is paid is almost always money, so お金 is usually omitted except when alternatives to money exist.

4)
As for the meaning "You can't pay", yes. あんたは払えないよ can't be used as "I can't pay you."

 

[eeky]

Thank you.

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