I don't know about the other posters here but, if this bloke was a private citizen with his own personal right wing views then it might be OK.(to each his own) but this guy doesn't seem to know his history and he's the bloody prime minister of this isolated country. Why does he celebrate Japan's thuggishness and belligerance toward other countries. Something which is historical. It's time for China to kick Japan's *** as a little payback.
Koizumi visited that shrine again
- Thread starter celtician
- Start date
The7thSamurai
Master of the Universe
- 4 Feb 2005
- 765
- 27
Did I read somewhere that the Emperor has either never visited that shrine or hasn't for a long time? If true then quite amazing since the Yasukuni Shrine and the Imperial Palace are pretty much in the same big park. Quite a political statement too.
The7thSamurai
Master of the Universe
- 4 Feb 2005
- 765
- 27
Maciamo said:
Yeah I accidently turned the TV on for live coverage of it. I didn't know what it was at first but from all the fuss that was being made I thought that it was some formal public event. Hardly a private visit indeed.
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
The media coverage isn't something that any head of state can contain or is responsible for, the only difference from listening to the radio was that he didn't do a deep bow or make a monetary offering....otherwise the distinction is probably more of a diplomatic or legal fineary that no one seems to be taking very seriously.Bucko said:
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
I found an article indicating the former has credence of the two possiblilities.Bucko said:
The woman who will never contemplate surrender, The Age, August 13, 2005
I wonder if there was an instruction/advisory notice from Gen. MacArthur for emperor Hirohito to avoid the Yasukuni. But then again, the Yasukuni was created to drum up nationlalist sentiments among the population. These points might also be raised; 1) the emperor would not be subject to propaganda meant for the mass which supposedly started from atop 2) if the emperor pays a visit, it will immediately mean that all Japanese citizens are more or less expected to follow suit as they are allowed there to begin with. I would be interested to know if there is some document or memoir that records such an agreement either spelled out or given tacit emphasis. Perhaps the shrine visits by the PM and others are to establish precedents to mean that gov'tal leaders' visit to the Yasukuni for the purpose of honoring/worshiping nationalist "heroes" (regardless of the fact that at least 1,000 of them were condemned war criminals of the Tokyo Trials of 1946-1949) is a fine thing to do, so that the public might not be shocked when sometime in the future the emperor or empress of Japan makes a visit ? If and when that happens would be the time Japan goes fully armed with offensive capabilities and intent; Asia beware !Bucko said:
Last edited:
.
I'm not trying to highjack your post here as I notice this is a very left and liberal version of my original Yasukuni thread.
I've paid homage to the shrine about fifteen times since living in Japan. I remember interviewing with an editor for the Yomiura Shimbun a few years ago and several other university students. While at the shrine I was showing a young highschool student around who had never seen the shrine before.
He was overwhelmed with a variety of emotions but in the end he was glad I showed him around.
I wish to enlighten people by allowing them to draw their own conclusion based off of what they think or feel that's why it's good to visit the shrine at least once in one's life time. I'm not some armchair historian either I've actually been to alot of places in this country.
I'm not trying to highjack your post here as I notice this is a very left and liberal version of my original Yasukuni thread.
I've paid homage to the shrine about fifteen times since living in Japan. I remember interviewing with an editor for the Yomiura Shimbun a few years ago and several other university students. While at the shrine I was showing a young highschool student around who had never seen the shrine before.
He was overwhelmed with a variety of emotions but in the end he was glad I showed him around.
I wish to enlighten people by allowing them to draw their own conclusion based off of what they think or feel that's why it's good to visit the shrine at least once in one's life time. I'm not some armchair historian either I've actually been to alot of places in this country.
Last edited:
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Cleanse the shrine and honor the victims.
For the Yasukuni to be a legitimate establishment, it should honor the victims of Imperial Japan's aggression during the Meiji-Taisho-Showa years; the Ainus, the Taiwanese aborigines, the Ryukuans, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Manchus, the Mongols, the Russians, the Philippinos, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, the Malays, the Indonesians, the French, the Burmese, the Indians & Pakistanis, the British, the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, and the New Zealanders before paying respects to the Japanese war dead. The fact remains that in addition to victims of internal warfare, Imperial Japan committed horrendous crimes outside its border.
The peaceful Korean demonstrators were massacred (7,500 initially, and 67,000 in the ensuing months) in the March 1 Movement declaring independence of Korea.
Then there is the genocide problem of the Kanto Massacre of September 1-15, 1923 which claimed more than 8,000 civilian lives including at least 7,313 Koreans and at least 700 Chinese.
The probability of death was ~1% for the Japanese, but ~24% for Koreans in the Kanto region in the two weeks ensuing the Great Kanto Earthquake Disaster.
Of course the Japanese could not have forgotten the Massacres of the Chinese at Port Arthur, Shanghai-Nanjing Occupied areas, and the human experimentation facilities at unit 731 and the likes during WWII 1931-1945, just to list a few.
In all, as Maciamo pointed out, at least 15 million civilian Chinese and POWs were indiscriminately exterminated in the war; hence they deserve to be honored before anyone can honor any Japanese soul in the Yasukuni for the glory of Imperial Japan was built at the expense of their innocent blood. Still, the 1,068 criminals and those proven to have committed atrocities are to be excluded, expelled from the shrine as obscenities undeserving of honor for they have acted in the manner of beasts.
For the Yasukuni to be a legitimate establishment, it should honor the victims of Imperial Japan's aggression during the Meiji-Taisho-Showa years; the Ainus, the Taiwanese aborigines, the Ryukuans, the Koreans, the Chinese, the Manchus, the Mongols, the Russians, the Philippinos, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, the Malays, the Indonesians, the French, the Burmese, the Indians & Pakistanis, the British, the Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, and the New Zealanders before paying respects to the Japanese war dead. The fact remains that in addition to victims of internal warfare, Imperial Japan committed horrendous crimes outside its border.
The peaceful Korean demonstrators were massacred (7,500 initially, and 67,000 in the ensuing months) in the March 1 Movement declaring independence of Korea.
Then there is the genocide problem of the Kanto Massacre of September 1-15, 1923 which claimed more than 8,000 civilian lives including at least 7,313 Koreans and at least 700 Chinese.
The probability of death was ~1% for the Japanese, but ~24% for Koreans in the Kanto region in the two weeks ensuing the Great Kanto Earthquake Disaster.
Of course the Japanese could not have forgotten the Massacres of the Chinese at Port Arthur, Shanghai-Nanjing Occupied areas, and the human experimentation facilities at unit 731 and the likes during WWII 1931-1945, just to list a few.
In all, as Maciamo pointed out, at least 15 million civilian Chinese and POWs were indiscriminately exterminated in the war; hence they deserve to be honored before anyone can honor any Japanese soul in the Yasukuni for the glory of Imperial Japan was built at the expense of their innocent blood. Still, the 1,068 criminals and those proven to have committed atrocities are to be excluded, expelled from the shrine as obscenities undeserving of honor for they have acted in the manner of beasts.
Last edited:
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
Bucko said:
The very, very large difference, you see, is that the Emperor, being the object of their admiration/worship/whatever, doesn't have to visit Yasukuni in order to keep the ultra-right-wing nutjobs placated. Politicians do.
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
Emperor Showa visited Yasukuni after the war on:Bucko said:
Oct. 16th 1952 (with Empress)
Oct. 19th 1954 (with Empress)
Apr. 23rd 1957 (with Empress)
Apr. 8th 1959 (with Empress)
Oct. 19th 1965
Oct. 19th 1969 (with Empress)
Nov. 21st 1975 (with Empress)
"Discussions" by people who do not even bother looking up the facts are not taken seriously.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Tojo Yuko's statement refers to Akihito
Because the Meiji government had transformed the traditional shinto cults into a state religion to become the spiritual backbone of militarist Japan, GHQ issued a command that Occupied Japan stop all religious education of state-shinto for the purpose of dissolving the Japanese state-shinto institution. As for the function of the Yasukuni, again Occupied Japan was to make a clear choice between a purely non-political, religious building or a non-religious, memorial facility. Japan chose the former, but have failed 8 times to remain faithful to the arramngement just during Hirohito's reign. Of course, how could America, with less than a 2 century history outwit Japan with a 2 millenium history ? The point is; Hirohito and Akihito made at least 13 visits in all conting common visits separately.
Beginning with Nakasone's Yasukuni visit in 1985, PM's Miyazawa and Hashimoto visited once each in 1992 and 1996, and PM Koizumi made 5 visits from 2001, once a year. In all 15 out of 27 post-WWII PM's made visits to the Yasukuni jinja. In 1991 the Supreme Court of Sendai ruled official visits to the Yasukuni jinja by the emperor or the Prime Ministers a breach of the constituional principle of separation of state and religion. Even without the ruling, Japan's royalty violated its constitution on 13 counts. Now that's something worth noting. Perhaps it is time to stop the visits unless one wishes to be in contempt of law and order ?
Are you saying, 窶督ｼ窶督ｳ窶堋ｵ, that Tojo Yuko didn't know what she was talking about ? Emperor Hirohito made 8 visits before the smuggling in of the 14 class A war criminals in 1978, and Emperor Akihito made 5 visits while still a young prince. I suspect you missed one visit, 窶督ｼ窶督ｳ窶堋ｵ.窶督ｼ窶督ｳ窶堋ｵ said:
Because the Meiji government had transformed the traditional shinto cults into a state religion to become the spiritual backbone of militarist Japan, GHQ issued a command that Occupied Japan stop all religious education of state-shinto for the purpose of dissolving the Japanese state-shinto institution. As for the function of the Yasukuni, again Occupied Japan was to make a clear choice between a purely non-political, religious building or a non-religious, memorial facility. Japan chose the former, but have failed 8 times to remain faithful to the arramngement just during Hirohito's reign. Of course, how could America, with less than a 2 century history outwit Japan with a 2 millenium history ? The point is; Hirohito and Akihito made at least 13 visits in all conting common visits separately.
Beginning with Nakasone's Yasukuni visit in 1985, PM's Miyazawa and Hashimoto visited once each in 1992 and 1996, and PM Koizumi made 5 visits from 2001, once a year. In all 15 out of 27 post-WWII PM's made visits to the Yasukuni jinja. In 1991 the Supreme Court of Sendai ruled official visits to the Yasukuni jinja by the emperor or the Prime Ministers a breach of the constituional principle of separation of state and religion. Even without the ruling, Japan's royalty violated its constitution on 13 counts. Now that's something worth noting. Perhaps it is time to stop the visits unless one wishes to be in contempt of law and order ?
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Big brother says, no, no; but young brother went anyway.
U.S.: Tension over Visit to Shrine Needs to be Resolved through Dialogue
note: The audio clips are machine generated, not recordings of human voice; clicking on either, male or female, may be detrimental to your English.
U.S.: Tension over Visit to Shrine Needs to be Resolved through Dialogue
That's a nudge not to make an unwise move, but it can also be likened to the washing of hands of Pontius Pilate, presuming ignorance or innocense. I'm sure it's not a language problem as there is no room for mistaken common sense.
I'm afraid not; brainwashing can cause severe gaps in understanding, and electoral pledges based on that ignorance is technically still a promise that Mr. Koizumi is apparently NOT willing to risk betraying.
We have heard that nudge before, but pretty words will do little to affect much change in the Yasukuni politics. The problem needs realpolitik to override the serious difference in perception, or lack of it.
note: The audio clips are machine generated, not recordings of human voice; clicking on either, male or female, may be detrimental to your English.
Last edited:
celtician said:
You need to take his word for it Celtician. And no one is celebrating Japan's thuggishness or belligerance toward other countries. Koizumi, like he said, visits the shrine to pay respects to the war dead, that's it. Don't put words in his mouth like so many other posters. The way Japanese honor their war dead is a private and inner-cultural matter that has nothing to do with the glorification of passed deeds. It's the simple showing of gratitude for the sacrifices that were made by soldiers who served under the emperor which is something that not only you but the vast majority of westerners, Chinese included, seem to not understand. Everytime I visit that shrine there are literally thousands, perhaps millions of Japanese people there ! I have been to the shrine over fifteen times and every time I go there is record turn out and I think it's because the Japanese have an interest in the issues surrounding Yasukuni; young people !
And what's funny, is that though many young Japanese may feel remorseful about Japan's past aggressions they do not buy into all of the claims that China has made because most are educated enough to know that China has proven how much of a revisionist on history she can be.
qinjingwen
後輩
- 2 Dec 2005
- 4
- 0
" because most are educated enough to know that China has proven how much of a revisionist on history she can be"
I wonder it's who were brainwashed.Just thinking of what the ignorant Japanese Army did in orther Asian counties under the names of justice and national interests during the WW2,aren't they enough to keep you clear-headed? I want to kown what were you educated or fooled.
I wonder it's who were brainwashed.Just thinking of what the ignorant Japanese Army did in orther Asian counties under the names of justice and national interests during the WW2,aren't they enough to keep you clear-headed? I want to kown what were you educated or fooled.
- Thread starter
- #16
It's excellent to see that a lot of posters seem to know their history! I don't claim to know much but I do try to see things from many different historical perspectives. Don't ya just wish that Japanese politicians did the same thing and stopped depending on their poor citizens to try to explain things away. "Poodle-hed" 'Richard' Koizumi should begin to think about his actions as "leader" of a country rather than just acting out some militaristic ritual.
- Thread starter
- #18
The Japanese should perhaps finally get their act together and decide which side of the fence they are on. In WW1 they were on the Allies side. In WW2 they were on the Axis side. Perhaps there has never been a country more confused than Japan?? Waddya think?
- 1 Nov 2005
- 446
- 39
I think that one must always keep the difference between Japanese people and Japanese war criminals in mind.
I shake hands with the Japanese people any time! But I can only feel a deep disdain for the Japanese war criminals. It was the Kempeitai (war criminals first class) who killed my father and my uncle because they were Dutch.
I shake hands with the Japanese people any time! But I can only feel a deep disdain for the Japanese war criminals. It was the Kempeitai (war criminals first class) who killed my father and my uncle because they were Dutch.
German think it was Nazi who be defeated in WWII,
Janpanese think it was their nation who be defeated in WWII,
So German treat Nazi as anti-human criminal,
and Japanese treat their militarist as their national hero!!
statistics show more than half of Japanese support Koizumi's
visiting.
So both Japanese government and Japanese people are dangerous!!
Janpanese think it was their nation who be defeated in WWII,
So German treat Nazi as anti-human criminal,
and Japanese treat their militarist as their national hero!!
statistics show more than half of Japanese support Koizumi's
visiting.
So both Japanese government and Japanese people are dangerous!!
MajideSaiaku
tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai
- 19 Jan 2005
- 1,381
- 59
You do relise that the war criminals names at that shrine are dwarfed by the number of innocent and crimeless soldiers names also listed there.celtician said:
Ive yet to still see a statement from the japanese government that they attend the shrine purely to honour the war criminals and not as i suspect, to honour the honorable dead.
As for ignoring chinas bitching over it, i can understand the chinese sentiments, even if i think they are a bit OTT about it, i know if i was japanese and visiting the shrine to honour my dead granpda who is amongst the non-war criminal dead, i would be somewhat annoyedat the chinese having the audacity to complain how me and my country mourns our dead.
Wwe have to admit it, the japanese arent the best at having the empathy to understand the reasons behind other peoples actions, they probably see it more as political based whining and bullyboying from china then genuine distress, which to be fair, it probably is being somewhat harnessed for political reasons alongside the genuine diastress.
As i suggested in a previous thread regarding this situation, maybe the japanese should move the names of the war criminals to a private closed shrine, that way everyones happy, the japanese arent honouring war criminals and the war criminals are still getting their basic death-rites. (i dont think even western war-criminals are denied a grave).
Also some people have to learn to seperate state from people, just because the top brass of japan are showing defiance to chinese percieved bullying doesnt mean all the japanese people are standing right behind koizumi with the exact same sentiments, last i checked my girlfriend and her family dont make an annual pilgrimage to honour the war criminal dead.
Most japanese are content to live their lives and let others live theirs, they have no interest in world war 2 facism, or extreme nationalism, or anything beyond their hobbies, going to and from work, and getting a good nights sleep and a good supper/breakfast.
Its common everywhere, but japan seems to be a particularly favoured target for lumping all the peopleof a country as the same and all same of mind, when they are just as varied and different as your own country.
Dont mistake more polite public manner as being mindless zombies with no free will as some like to think, its just that, being more polite and considorate of those around them, its no different then say, public manners of the english pre-war.
And true, japanese are less likely to feel free to express their full opinion on a matter in public to strangers, but it doesnt mean they dont have their own opinion, merely that unless its vital to voice it, they wont.
We try and judge other countries by our own values, in this case, our vocal almost selfish expression of our own ambitions and desires and wants, and thats fine for us, but dont assume a country of people are merely zombies of whoever is in charge simply because they arent known to be vocal.
Come live in japan for just a month, and if you honestly see a country that embraces war criminals, then your fully ligitimized in youjr criticism.
MajideSaiaku
tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai
- 19 Jan 2005
- 1,381
- 59
So when praytell does america and the allies charge those responsible for nuknig two japanese cities, firebombing japan and cities in germany, how about imprisoning ethnic japanese durring the war, as war criminals, how about the acts of individual or groups of allied soldiers that no doubt behaved less then war legal in some situations?.lexico said:
"But it was war, we had to do what we had to do".
And the japanese war criminas would argue they had to do what they had to do...of course they were wrong and deserve their tarnished and dishonoured status but it makes you think.....the victors really do write the history books.
Japanese and german war criminals were disgusting sub-humans, while allied war-criminals who burnt japanese cities to the ground, killed thousands of innocent japanese civilians, and completely and inhumanly charred hiroshima and nagasaki to the black dirt and almost the entire populations of these cities whiped out and an instance, whole cities of people just killed off, and bombed germany and its people into grey rubble and death and homelessness, are great heros.
Funny isnt it?.
Suffice to say im not here to get into a huge debate about that, what i am saying is some people here, especially asian peoples towards the japanese need to step back and relize that their precious war dead werent the only victims, as they say "in war, nobody wins"
If you feel your country suffered, emagine how bad it is for the loser?.
When asia stops being so mercinary and rabid about Japans past, and stops pushing it so much, maybe japan will feel less pressured into a forced apology and compensation.
I dont see the ruopean nations being so hostile towards germany, infact the opposite, germany is now an integral part of europe and european policy and politics, and foir all that world war 2 german leadership did, europe has forgiven germany and germany has apologised sincerely and made sure as best it can that history isnt forgotten.
If asian countries could see to be a bit more forgiving and a little less selfish like rabid pirahnas waiting for the kill, then maybe japan wouldnt feel so threatened that an apology would look like giving permission to asian countries to just become more hostile and demanding.
Learn forgiveness before you earn the right to an apology, it works two ways you know.
Edit: I'de also suggest that perhaps the chinese posters here be barred from these threads unless they can make statements and comments that dont all look like the same chinese government propagandized fed opinions.
Seriously though all im seeing is a deeper contempts and hidden motivation for this hatred then merely a japanese PM visitting a shrine.
As for the burning the shrine to the ground comment, how about i come and burn down your local war memorial/graveyard, jesus christ, no offense but im going to have to be blunt, the raging hostility or simple ignorance of some posts in this thread is making my head hurt.
Alot of westerners here simply think of the shrine as somehow glorifying the war-criminals.
FALSE: though the shrine has war criminals names in it, for reasons i dont know, most japanese go there to honour the vast vast majority of honourable war-dead, and care nothing about the war criminals the chinese and westerners ehre always harp on about like frantic dogs.
As for the fact they fought on the wrong side....tough, the vast majority of soldiers are innocent of war crimes, and as such, it doesnt matter what side their on, they are entitled to their death-rites, and being honoured and remembered in anyway their people see fit, please refrain from anymore "burn the shrine down" comments, it just shows a raging ignorance which makes me wonder why you feel your opinion a legitimate one in regard to the topic.
Most of the chinese/asian posters here seem to be so overly fanatical about their contempt for this shrine and to a lesser extent to the japanese, as to make me wonder if you really deserve an apology, yes, the japanese should apologise to china and korea and other countries, but what exactly do they owe YOU?.
Why is it so important to you that you are practically frothing at the mouth just thinking of how much you unreasonable illogically hate the japanese so much.
The germans bombed the south of england quite thoroughly durring the war, but for all that it doesnt bother me in the slightest, for a start im 20 years old, it effectively has nothing to do with me at all, i dont need or want any apology or compensations, i deserve neither, those are saved for government-to-government apologies, so for a start, you are owed nothing, your government will receive the apology.
Secondly, if you cant even begin to forgive the japanese, why should they feel any apology will be accepted?....maybe, just maybe the japanese would feel more obliged to apologise and make amends if the chinese werent so bloody hostile towards them and greet them with nothing but contempt.
Asia needs to take a look at germany and europes relationship, were not allowing the war to sour modern relationships, and were the better for it, but as i suspect, this war hatred some asian people and governments have towards japan seems to have its roots in something else and more sinister then merely wanting an apology or wanting a real proper solution thats a comprimise for both sides regarding the war shrine.
Lets stop pretending, you dont really feel hard done by the war, and are more interested in your gripings modern political gains, the war doesnt effect you, if even a few of you lost someone in the war you actually knew, i will be suprised.
The vast majority of japanese are indeed sorry and regret their countries past, but how can ammends be made when you wont allow it?, i fear too many people are far more interested in the continued conflict rather then getting closure.
- 14 Feb 2005
- 46
- 2
Koizumi is really hard to make a choice,when there're trop de droites dans son cabinet.
