"Chikan" problem and victims in Tokyo and Japan Subways!

[doitsugo]

Hi!
Did anyone has been accused to be a Chikan or has been indirectly involved in this known sexual harassment in metro?
Last years things changed in Japan! Since another political party is governing, the police started hunting Chikans. But unfortunately many innocent people had been arrested!!
Thank you!

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Two old threads to look at on "chikan".

Just bumped them up for you to read.

Uncle Frank

 

[doitsugo]

Hi Uncle Frank,
Thank you very much.

 

[thomas]

As Frank suggested, there's a couple of older threads here on the forum, such as this one.

I wasn't aware of the fact that the DPJ has stepped up efforts to fight gropers. In my understanding, this campaign has been going on for many years and has intimidated quite a lot of male commuters who fear to be wrongly accused of indecent behaviour. "Always hold onto the handles with both hands", is the common advice given to male passengers. I have only witnessed one such incident so far, but I take the train only once a week.

 

[doitsugo]

Thank you very much thomas,
I was surprised about this subject in older threads! I thought because special police unit has been launched after new political party took power. Female electors should have helped government change. But I'm glad that the campain has been going many years. Thank your for the adivse. I read the older threads and I can confirm Chijo and even gay attacks. I thought maybe because some people could think Europeans are easy going regarding any kind of pleasures!

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

LoL - people groping people on the underground.
Some people are so pathetic.
I had an incident with a woman once - meh. I can see the naughty fun side of it, but only if the other person is up for it.

As for people trying to scam you.
If you are western in Japan, Don't talk Japanese. Take out your phone, and on the sly set it to record.
It is one of the Biggest advantages you can give yourself is pretending you don't speak the local lingo.

 

[doitsugo]

Thanks very much SevenStarsHK2N for the advices. They are usefuls.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

You will be amazed how quickly people will asume you do not speak the language if you talk to them in english ;-)

 

[doitsugo]

Thank you I did it once in front of Shibuya 109 shopping centre when a guy with 4 like beautiful office looking girls talked to me and offered me their "massage service" explaining they are students and not prostitutes! Indeed the girls looked so! 2 of them held my hands and it helped to talk in English and to say all the time "I don't speak Japanese"
I was really glad because in another Forum/blog I read that once you buy their service, the bill will get later under threat very very high! But that's another subject similar to things which are happening in Roppongi!

 

[zoomingjapan]

You will be amazed how quickly people will asume you do not speak the language if you talk to them in english ;-)

I always do that when NHK or other annoying people are suddenly visiting.
But speaking English is a bit risky. There are a few people who will then switch to bad English and try to continue the conversation.
As I'm German I open the door and first wait until they introduce themselves, so I know what they want from me. If it's something unpleasant I just reply in German that I don't understand a thing (although I'm almost fluent in Japanese, but they can't know, right?).
Usually I get a very shocked look, a few "sumimasen" and they're off and never come again. *g*



As for the "chikan" - I've been here in Japan for many years, but have never seen or experienced it myself.

 

[Mike Cash]

I've never had anything but disdain for the playing of the "dumb gaijin" card.

People who pull that crap when it is to their benefit have no room to complain about being treated differently than Japanese at other times.

I most especially never want to hear from them the common complaint of being out with a Japanese friend/spouse and being angry because somebody else spoke to them through their Japanese companion and "ignored me even though I was speaking fluent Japanese!"

Those of us who make our homes here and further make the effort to assimilate....to not have our gaijinity be the focus....find it just that much more difficult to do due to the players of the "dumb gaijin" card. Seriously, you're an embarrassment.

 

[zoomingjapan]

I've never had anything but disdain for the playing of the "dumb gaijin" card.

I really don't get why - no matter what people write here - you ALWAYS have to criticize it.
And it's not just THAT you criticize, but the WAY you do it. Very aggressive.

If you don't like the fact that people do that, ok.
Everybody has their own opinion. I also don't like when people get their way out of situations, playing the "dumb gaijin card", but when somebody comes to my home and tries to annoy me it's a different story for me! Outside of that situation I never pretend I don't know what's going on.
And I know several Japanese people who try to pull off similar things. Don't just assume that it's foreigners who are doing bad things, because that's just not true!

 

[Mike Cash]

Did I assume just foreigners do bad things? I don't recall saying anything that would lead one to that conclusion.

If you're so fluent in Japanese, tell the NHK guy to bugger off in Japanese. Why make all of us look deceitful or ignorant by feigning ignorance?

Yes, everybody has their own opinion. Guess what? I'm one of that "everybody". I get to state mine too.

 

[zoomingjapan]

Yes, you can state your opinion, but I was saying that the WAY you do it is very offensive. At least that's the feeling I got when reading your last comment.

You know what I started doing it?
Because those people coming to my home assume from the start that I don't understand them.
I didn't play dumb from the start. I listened patiently to what they wanted from me without saying anything.
When they were finished they repeated what they just said in very bad English .... that's when I thought I could as well play along.

I can't speak for others, but for me that's the only time I play dumb.
I don't hurt anybody by doing so, so I don't really see why this is bad.

I can see why this might make you angry.
I don't like the foreigners who think they can do whatever they want here in Japan and get out of it by playing the infamous "gaijin card".

The funny thing is that I don't even have a TV, so I just could tell them, but it's much faster to just listen quietly and then look like I didn't understand what they were talking about. Also for people who want to sell something to me.
Most of the time, I don't open the door if I don't expect any visitors or a package.

 

[ewww]

Sorry guys, I'll interrupt Your discussion, there is something about topic: It is iPod again! iPod is evil!

 

[doitsugo]

Luckily everybody is unique, special and different! Well! There is no standard behaviour and thought. Personal behaviour/thought and act are mostly influenced by environment, past, education, childhood, made experiences, friends, parents and so on! For a Western it's a challenge to leave in an Asiatic society and vice versa! In Western there is no defined society unit behaviour's model or description! So! It's a great advantage and It's practical because everybody will always have friends and won't be rejected. Just a note: Mixed couples don't have an easy life in every society and sadly there is nothing to do about it. Hardliners are to find everywhere!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Those of us who make our homes here and further make the effort to assimilate....to not have our gaijinity be the focus....find it just that much more difficult to do due to the players of the "dumb gaijin" card.

Given the amount of foreign visitors to Japan who speak no Japanese as well as the Japanese insular mindset, the number of people playing the "dumb gaijin" card does not make one jot of difference.

Like Mike Cash, I never do this. Its a combination of self-respect, a desire to work things out properly, and a desire to educate anyone I come across on what is right and what is stupid. (Just yesterday some young fool almost crashed his car into me and when I saw him go into an izakaya parking lot, I went in too, got out, chewed him out and made sure he knew exactly what his screw up was. His "friends" just walked away and left him to face me alone. Should have chewed them out too, cause for all they knew, I could have been a loon with a knife...)

But anyway...chikan...I think the male/female interaction of the whole thing is kind of fascinating. How hard can it really be to get away from a chikan, open your mouth and complain, elbow the guy, turn around, stomp his foot, ride the women only car, stand with your back to the wall, whatever....but women just quietly take it....its confusing to say the least.

I mean, imagine guys if some woman started rubbing your groin on the train...can their be no case where you would like it? Depends, don't it? Old stinking granny? No way. Super cute office lady....gee, I hope no one is watching. Surely it is similar for women. Do women not get horny? Of course they do! The problem is that you pretty much have no way to tell who is enjoying and who is not, cause either way the women don't really give an indication. And if they do seem to be enjoying right now, there is a good chance of a sort of "buyer's remorse" later, and they may really loathe themselves afterward. And the chikan won't be there to support her like even an apparent one-night stand could be. And those are the real reasons why its wrong. Its not as simple as consent, as much as people try to make it out to be. Male/female sexual interactions are not that simple. Some women may be good with it, some may not actually care, but surely most will be upset even if they quietly take it. No one really has any way to distinguish, so at least 70 percent of the time, the chikan is bothering someone who is not keen.

 

[JeanB]

Do women not get horny? Of course they do! The problem is that you pretty much have no way to tell who is enjoying and who is not, cause either way the women don't really give an indication. And if they do seem to be enjoying right now, there is a good chance of a sort of "buyer's remorse" later, and they may really loathe themselves afterward.

No one really has any way to distinguish, so at least 70 percent of the time, the chikan is bothering someone who is not keen.

Must say I wouldn't "just quietly take it" (as you put it) I'll refrain from commenting on how I think Japanese women should react, but I will say you're a pig. Hunk or not, most women don't welcome getting groped by strangers on a train. And by most, I mean more in the vicinity 99.9%.


Todd Akin? Is that you?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Must say I wouldn't "just quietly take it" (as you put it)

Great.

Indeed, I meant a lot of women, perhaps even most Japanese women, but not all.

I'll refrain from commenting on how I think Japanese women should react, but I will say you're a pig.

And you are a C#@t.

I never said I was a groper, nor did I say I support gropers. I am just pointing some things out that seem true even if they are not PC. I am not a pig for doing that, but you certainly are a C#@t for calling me one.

Hunk or not, most women don't welcome getting groped by strangers on a train. And by most, I mean more in the vicinity 99.9%.

And you are a woman, so you speak for all women. You read their minds even.

Ummm....no. After a while, most of us human beings find out that women are as duplicitous as men are....just in different ways. Women guard their reputations as hard as their very lives, and will fib to high heaven rather than admit to pleasures that may be viewed as "unseemly". Perhaps not YOU. But YOU don't represent womankind or Japanese any more than I represent men and Americans.

Several incidents in my life have opened my eyes, such as the girl who spoke of being raped by a man she barely knew in the pub lavatory with a certain mix of disdain and yet a twinkle in her eye. It seemed to be the worst and yet the best thing that ever happened to her.

Does she represent all women? No. Hell no. She is certainly a minority but I don't think her kind are all that rare (but note that even for her it does not mean just anything goes or anyone. To all men reading: you probably are not the one). I would say there are at least as many women who might enjoy getting groped as there are men who would actually do it, which is to say a significant minority.

And in case you don't get it, because I believe you are probably hell bent not to, there are many kinds of women in the world,none better than the other, all just different, so no woman can represent them all. Some would not fight, some would, some would be traumatized, for some its like water off a duck's back, some would be angry and yes, some would be flattered and get off on it.

Todd Akin? Is that you?

I expect that you don't know the half of it concerning Todd Akin's comments and just ride the bandwagon in typical emotional thought-challenged sheeple fashion. Not to say that I support Todd Akin's comments, but there was some truth in what he said, just not nearly enough. I doubt you have slightest idea what I am talking about, and if I told you and handed you clear and hard scientific proof, you would go out of your way to deny it.

P.S. C#@t means "chat", which in English means cat. Excuse my French!

P.P.S. A cat can also be called "pussy".

P.M.S. Could explain a lot!

 

[JeanB]

Great.
Indeed, I meant a lot of women, perhaps even most Japanese women, but not all.
And you are a C#@t.

P.P.S. A cat can also be called "pussy".

Hey thanks, I'm pretty sure that's how my rapist saw me too; a vagina.

I never said I was a groper, nor did I say I support gropers. I am just pointing some things out that seem true even if they are not PC. I am not a pig for doing that, but you certainly are a C#@t for calling me one.
And you are a woman, so you speak for all women. You read their minds even.

Do you have trouble reading? Never did I call you a groper. (But after reading your last post, I've changed my mind, clearly you have issues.)

Ummm....no. After a while, most of us human beings find out that women are as duplicitous as men are....just in different ways. Women guard their reputations as hard as their very lives, and will fib to high heaven rather than admit to pleasures that may be viewed as "unseemly". Perhaps not YOU. But YOU don't represent womankind or Japanese any more than I represent men and Americans.

Which one of us was the one that said, "I mean, imagine guys if some woman started rubbing your groin on the train...can their be no case where you would like it? Depends, don't it? Old stinking granny? No way. Super cute office lady....gee, I hope no one is watching. Surely it is similar for women."

And you think it's me making assumptions? I was not speaking for all women, but I would have more of an idea than you would. For example, a woman could be more worried that the person groping her on a train was a rapist, or be fearful for her life. (Rather than whatever sickminded-wishful-fantasy you had in your little head.) Such a rape scenario might be more likely in NYC than Japan, but I digress..

Several incidents in my life have opened my eyes, such as the girl who spoke of being raped by a man she barely knew in the pub lavatory with a certain mix of disdain and yet a twinkle in her eye. It seemed to be the worst and yet the best thing that ever happened to her.

Perhaps, or perhaps that twinkle you saw was a wish for if-looks-could-kill..

Does she represent all women? No. Hell no. She is certainly a minority but I don't think her kind are all that rare (but note that even for her it does not mean just anything goes or anyone. To all men reading: you probably are not the one). I would say there are at least as many women who might enjoy getting groped as there are men who would actually do it, which is to say a significant minority.

You, like Mr. Akin, shouldn't make assumptions.

For the same reason I wouldn't assume a suspected rapist (or groper) is guilty, I would also not assume a victim was lying, or that deeply down she "wanted" it.

*sigh* you are so foregone, I doubt I could convince you of the errors of your ways.

And in case you don't get it, because I believe you are probably hell bent not to, there are many kinds of women in the world,none better than the other, all just different, so no woman can represent them all. Some would not fight, some would, some would be traumatized, for some its like water off a duck's back, some would be angry and yes, some would be flattered and get off on it.

I never implied all women are the same. Nor did I imply there are no women liars.

I expect that you don't know the half of it concerning Todd Akin's comments and just ride the bandwagon in typical emotional thought-challenged sheeple fashion. Not to say that I support Todd Akin's comments, but there was some truth in what he said, just not nearly enough. I doubt you have slightest idea what I am talking about, and if I told you and handed you clear and hard scientific proof, you would go out of your way to deny it.

I'm conservative, I usually avoid liberal talking points. Of course it'd be just like you to make sexist remarks about that too.

P.M.S. Could explain a lot!.

And there's more sexist remarks. I understand.. You're pathetic and have no more excuses. And no, but thanks for checking in on my menses.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I was not speaking for all women, but I would have more of an idea than you would.

No. You wouldn't. My gender might be a bit of a handicap (in the golfing sense) but it does not mean I automatically lose the game.

For example, a woman could be more worried that the person groping her on a train was a rapist, or be fearful for her life.

Yes. SOME women could be so worried. Sure. Never said otherwise.

Perhaps, or perhaps that twinkle you saw was a wish for if-looks-could-kill..

Or perhaps you weren't there and I was? She told her story with glee. I walked her home, being the gentleman that I am. I tried to get her phone number. She played games. She made half-hearted attempts to lose me. When we got to her place she made noises about how she had to go now, while keep the door open a bit, but kept talking. I think she wanted to me to force my way in. I think she wanted me to this because a) she likes that sort of thing and b) she needed plausible deniability, as in an excuse to tell her boyfriend should the need arise.

But like I said, I am a gentleman. I will give a woman all the rape fantasies and sexual violence she wants, but only after an easy going and clearly consensual first time so that we both have a clear idea what is going on.

For the same reason I wouldn't assume a suspected rapist (or groper) is guilty, I would also not assume a victim was lying, or that deeply down she "wanted" it.

You, who speaks from an absolutist point of view, warns me not to make assumptions???

I am going off of evidence that i have witnessed over the years and scholarly works that I have read that ALL women are different. Some tell the truth, and some lie to hide their real feelings. And you are telling me that some possibilities are impossible, as if you know, simply by virtue of being a woman??? You are off your rocker.

I never implied all women are the same. Nor did I imply there are no women liars.

But you are telling me that if any woman ever enjoyed getting raped or groped it was a tiny, tiny percentage even smaller than the number of people with mental health issues.

Tell me, do you think its common for women to have rape fantasies? Its a simple question, but it make wake you up a bit.

I'm conservative, I usually avoid liberal talking points. Of course it'd be just like you to make sexist remarks about that too.

Last I heard, Todd Akin was a conservative. Believe me, I am in no hurry to defend the man. All I want is THE TRUTH. No politics. No bull$#!T. No loyalty to men. Just THE TRUTH. That is what truly separates liberals from conservatives.

Hey thanks, I'm pretty sure that's how my rapist saw me too; a vagina.

And if you are hurt and troubled by that experience, you have my sympathy.

But don't expect me to pull punches in a debate for the sake of your sensibilities, cause that will lead to untruth.

*sigh* you are so foregone, I doubt I could convince you of the errors of your ways.

Hey! You stole my line!

 

[JeanB]

But you are telling me that if any woman ever enjoyed getting raped or groped it was a tiny, tiny percentage even smaller than the number of people with mental health issues.

No, you half-wit. I'm saying watch your statements or you'll sound like an Akin. But clearly you have no qualms with that; as you've stated it several times.

Last I heard, Todd Akin was a conservative. Believe me, I am in no hurry to defend the man. All I want is THE TRUTH. No politics. No bull$#!T. No loyalty to men. Just THE TRUTH. That is what truly separates liberals from conservatives.

So I'm conservative and therefore agree with all conservative ideas, and all "conservative" leaders?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

No, you half-wit. I'm saying watch your statements or your you'll sound like an Akin. But clearly you have no qualms with that; as you've stated it several times.

You should watch it with the name calling, or you will sound like some fool.

And no, I have no qualms about being verbally strung up by thoughtless peasants shouting slogans and bearing pitchforks and torches. The masses don't actually listen and think. They search for new victim every day; someone to take out of context or whose words to twist, so as to have a little bonfire. I am used to this stupid pattern.

So I'm conservative and therefore agree with all conservative ideas, and all "conservative" leaders?

No. But it was you who brought up liberalism and conservatism and "liberal talking points". Sounds like you are a Rush Limbaugh fan.

Anyway, look, if you want to get a handle on me you should judge me by this thread:

https://jref.com/forum/serious-disc...ntolerance-female-sexuality-51743/#post720953

I am not anti-woman and I am not pro-groper. I am just accepting complicated truths that sound bytes won't explain.

 

[JeanB]

You should watch it with the name calling, or you will sound like some fool.
And no, I have no qualms about being verbally strung up by thoughtless peasants shouting slogans and bearing pitchforks and torches. The masses don't actually listen and think. They search for new victim every day; someone to take out of context or whose words to twist, so as to have a little bonfire. I am used to this stupid pattern.

I would apologize if I thought you didn't deserve it. Apparently you like to skew my words or intentionally misunderstand them. I would also apologize if you instead had replied, "I'm sorry for making assumptions that every third woman I met "wants" it, and from strangers, on a train.."

If you can't see the comparison to Akin.. Never mind, this isn't going anywhere.

No. But it was you who brought up liberalism and conservatism and "liberal talking points". Sounds like you are a Rush Limbaugh fan.
Anyway, look, if you want to get a handle on me you should judge me by this thread:
https://jref.com/forum/serious-disc...ntolerance-female-sexuality-51743/#post720953
I am not anti-woman and I am not pro-groper. I am just accepting complicated truths that sound bytes won't explain.

I'm afraid you did; "just ride the bandwagon" referring to talking points involving Akin.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Apparently you like to skew my words or intentionally misunderstand them.

Stole my line again.

I would apologize if I thought you didn't deserve it.

I neither want nor require an apology. I want you to conduct yourself more maturely and respectfully from now on. The past is over.

"I'm sorry for making assumptions that every third woman I met "wants" it, and from strangers, on a train.."

And there you go. That is not what I said. You read that into it.

What I meant was that possibly, every third Japanese woman, or fourth, or fifth, finds herself enjoying it on some level at least, or at least does not mind so much, perhaps at some certain times and not at others, with some certain strangers but not others, and indeed, its all dependent on many variables. How they feel about it afterwards would be another division.

And as much as we hear that things like groping and rape are under-reported, it would go a long way to help explain why.

Look, rape and groping and extremely difficult topics because its NOT dependent on specific actions but rather its dependent on the thoughts and feelings of the person in the sex act. Did you ever hear "You cannot rape the willing?" Well, its true. But we cannot always tell with certainty who is willing and who is not, who was not willing at first but became willing during, who is liking it but embarrassed by their own enjoyment or the concern that others may be watching, etc. This topic is very complicated, and it disturbs me when people try and simplify it beyond reason.

Effective strategies against rape and groping can be much better formulated by admitting the truth and talking about it candidly. Trying to convince women to deny their own feelings and realities with this propaganda that no women could ever enjoy it is the road to misunderstandings and errors that will not only trap some men unfairly, but also not properly allow women to conduct their own lives, affairs and feelings appropriately.

I also point out that some men are being trapped by scams from women falsely claiming to have been groped who have a gang waiting in the wings to extort money. And this sort of propaganda furthers such scammers ability to perform their evil.

I'm afraid you did; "just ride the bandwagon" referring to talking points involving Akin.

I said NOTHING specific about Akin's comments, AT ALL. So what talking points could you possibly be referring to?

Even you have said nothing specific yourself, nor responded to my belief that you know of no truth in his comments.

And you dodged my rape fantasy question.