Why do many Chinese and Koreans hate Japanese?

[AquaLung]

You see less of that here in the U.S. because we're more of a color-coded nation. We tend to categorize people by color rather than ethnicity, so consequently national/ethnic rivalries have dissipated. If anything, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc., have been forced to unite rather than fight do to being categorized as the Asian race. Whatever ethnic related problem a Chinese person will face in the U.S., a Japanese and Korean will probably face the same by virtue of being of the same race.

Since nations in Asia are more ethnic focused, these types of rivalries inevitably exist, and it's much tougher to put away things like historical wars, political conflicts, etc. And the problem is not just with the major ethnic groups like the Japanese, and Koreans; but the conflicts involve smaller ethnic groups within the various nations (Karens, Tibetans, etc.).

 

[Eudaimonia]

I understand that there were wars between those countries long ago. Why don't these people let it pass away and live in peace?

Well, the reason should be obvious, but since the answers that this thread has got so far don't seem to be answering very much i'll try to help.

I have visited both China and Japan. I've been to Beijing for 12 days, and i've been to Kyoto and Tokyo for 10 days. I have many Japanese acquintances and my best friend is currently studying the Chinese language for 1 year in Beijing.

BUT lets start by examining the reasons that the Chinese and Koreans would give for hating the Japanese...


- The Japanese have never apologised.

True or False? Objectively false.

- The Japanese Prime ministers still visit the Yasukuni temple in which class A war criminals were enshrined.

Yasukuni is a temple in which less than 20 class A war criminals were enshrined. Yasukuni pays respect to all the people or animals (!) that gave their lives for Japan. That's why in Yasukuni there are MILLIONS enshrined. So... 14 out of ~2,500,000 !!!!! All the fuss is about 14 enshrined people, this makes the temple goers worshipers of war criminals etc according to the Chinese and Koreans. It's simply absurd. It makes no sense.

- The Japanese have never given compensations nor apologized to the comfort women.

True or False? False, the Japanese have given compensations on 2 seperate occasions. The second time it was accompanied with a personal apology from the prime minister!

What's the damn problem then? The problem is with the definition of what's a comfort women, and exactly what happened. Should the Japanese accept the definition that the Koreans want? The answer is: Not necesairily. The Japanese shouldn't accept everything that the hurt from them 70+ years ago say. I think that the world can live with 2 different slightly conflicting views on this issue.

At this point it should be noted that the Japanese gave the Chinese trillions (yes, you read correctly trillions) of yen in Official Development Assistance throughout the years after WW2. This is VERY important, if it wasn't for this China would be 5-10 years behind the point that it is now.


The problem is that most people can't possibly comprehent that the wrongdoings of the Japanese in ww2 aka 70+ years ago are used today as a form of ultra-nationalist anti-Japanese propaganda by the Koreans and Chinese.

How does this work, you may ask. I don't know exactly how it works in Korea (i haven't been there yet) but i do know how it works in China!

In China (i have read) that there's a total of ~120 tv channels. Anyway, my hotel had ~60 tv channels, because my best friend lived ~30 minutes away from my hotel and i travelled to Beijing alone i watched A LOT of Chinese tv. What did those ~60 tv channel show?

Almost all day long...

~26 channels show old China tv-series or movies.
~15 channels show tv-games, tv-shows, stuff like so you think you can dance etc.
~4 channels show the news. One in English.
~4 channels show relatively modern tv-series or movies.
~6 channels show the actions of the Japanese devils during ww2, as tv-series or movies!!!

Now imagine if you're European or American if all day long you were bombarded with movies and tv-series showing what the Germans did in ww2. How likely is it that you'll end up liking the Germans?

Now add to that that in the supreme majority of Chinese movies the bad guys are the Japanese, that in school the largest history chapter is on the "Japanese devils" actions in ww2, and that the media constantly downplay the positive aspects of Japan of the last ~70 years.

In China there are amusement parks where people go to kill "Japanese devils" (here's a link because it can be unbelievable that such a place exists), in shops around Beijing i saw souvenirs of Chinese soldiers beating up Japanese soldiers and Chinese soldiers taking the diaoyu/senkaku islands, there are signs in restaurants that Japanese are not allowed, in temple fairs i saw toy hammers that read "diaoyu's are Chinese" etc etc

~6 months ago there were anti-Japanese riots in which Japanese people were attacked, Japanese businesses and factories were burned to the ground, people who drove Japanese cars were often attacked, there was a Japanese book ban in Beijing for a little while, the Japanese were (almost) banned from the Beijing marathon, Children were taught how to attack Japanese cars and how to defend the diaoyu islands! etc etc

It's likely that i would hate Japan too if there was sooooooooooo much propaganda (yes, this is propaganda) against it in my country.

The reality though is that...

- Japan has changed and become a democratic country.

- Japan hasn't shot a single shot since ww2. This is especially interesting, because Japan was the second economy in the world (now is the third) for quite some time, and the Americans pressured Japan to abandon the peace constitution and take a more active role in Nato affairs. So, Japan could have a strong military and be quite different than it is today. Japan may be forced by the Chinese now to have a stronger military, we'll have to wait and see.

- Japan has probably the most anti-war culture in the whole world. I'll even mention a few of the better anti-war movies: The human condition 1,2,3, The emperor's naked army marches on, Fires on the Plain, Nikudan etc etc. People who watch anime may also have noticed anti-war themes, for example: Naruto, Gundam zero, Grave of the fireflies etc etc.


BUT lets look at China and Korea, what have they done since ww2?

Isn't it true that China occupies Tibet? How does China treat the Uyghurs minority? How about the 9-dash line? The constant rise in military expenditures?

What about the Koreans? They're surely saints arent they? Oh wait... best not forget the attrocities of vietnam!!!


Talk about hypocricy huh? Who should be ashamed? Should the Japanese be ashamed about all of this?


For those of you ready to answer me about me not understanding how bad the Japanese have been, about dokdo/diaoyu which they have stolen from "you" etc. My grandfather died by the hands of the Germans but simply because we don't have anti-German propaganda over here i don't hate the Germans of today for it NOR should the Koreans and Chinese hate the Japanese for what their grandparents (of the Japanese) did to their grandparents (of the Chinese & Koreans). Despite what you're told most countries in this world have done something bad to other countries. If those other countries held a grudge for 70+ years we would all be doomed!!

 

[nahadef]

Not surprising in any way: Four of the top ten porn searches in China are Japan related. The people there are conflicted

Top Porn Search Terms From Each Country

 

[LolaEliot]

Because of the history?
I'm Chinese, but I don't hate Japanese.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Not surprising in any way: Four of the top ten porn searches in China are Japan related. The people there are conflicted

Top Porn Search Terms From Each Country

I am not sure what this proves. Perhaps that non-sexual people (who would not look up porn) are the bigotted A-holes of the world responsible for all the hate, violence and trouble?

On a side note, I am pretty sure that most child porn is created and viewed between Russia and America. But no country is more condemning of it than the U.S.A.

One thing is for sure; every country is contains different types of people with different types of mindsets, but it seems to be only one type that captures all the attention and is blamed for the national character as viewed by outsiders.

 

[nahadef]

I am not sure what this proves. Perhaps that non-sexual people (who would not look up porn) are the bigotted A-holes of the world responsible for all the hate, violence and trouble?
On a side note, I am pretty sure that most child porn is created and viewed between Russia and America. But no country is more condemning of it than the U.S.A.
One thing is for sure; every country is contains different types of people with different types of mindsets, but it seems to be only one type that captures all the attention and is blamed for the national character as viewed by outsiders.

I wasn't plotting a thesis. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of haters were doing searches.

About the child porn thing, what? No, the topic of "Why do many Chinese and Koreans hate Japanese?" is not in any way an opportunity to bring it up. Not at all. Geez.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Eudaimonia, I just want to ask you a simple question up front. What is your purpose here?

Is it to defend the Japanese people, government, uyoku, or some other group of people?

Is it do defend principles like truth, justice and fairness? Or is it greed, lies, evil and selfishness you want to defend?

Or are you just here to try and bamboozle us, whether for practice at being a scheisterly lawyer or just for the sheer pleasure of it?

I ask, because when I take the time to expose you to the truth, I want to know if you are going to accept it, or write it all off automatically for your own selfish reasons.

 

[Eudaimonia]

Eudaimonia, I just want to ask you a simple question up front. What is your purpose here?

blah defend?

I ask, because when I take the time to expose you to the truth, I want to know if you are going to accept it, or write it all off automatically for your own selfish reasons.

How mighty pompus of you.

I want to clear up something here. I never said that the Japanese are saints, that they did nothing wrong in ww2, that there's no nationalism currently in Japan, never said that Japan is the most perfect country in the world, haven't said that they're all accepting the war crimes etc etc. If you think that i have you must read what i wrote again.

You want to "expose me to the truth"? If by the truth you mean the horrible things that the Japanese have done in ww2, i have read books - i have seen documentaries - i'd actually bet i've done this more than you have "Zorro"! If by the truth you mean the text-book controversies... i know the subject all too well - you'll fail to expose me to anything.

Though before you expose me to anything you must first explain how the Chinese and Koreans aren't hyporcites. Also, you must explain why they b*tch and moan more than the Europeans do about the Germans. Let me give an example: Lets say that there are three families. One is the Japanese family, one is the Korean family and the other is the Chinese family. If one member of the Japanese family has MANY years ago killed one member of the Chinese family and raped (it's doubtful but ok) one member of the Korean family then if since then the Korean family has killed one member of another family (the vietnam family) and if the Chinese family is currently holding hostage 2 members of other families (Uyghurs and Tibetans). Do they have any right to make any judgements?

So, maybe you should reread and you should understand that the essense of my thesis is in my last paragraph... War is bad, people aren't bad., i don't clearly say this but it should be an obvious conclusion of this: "Despite what you're told most countries in this world have done something bad to other countries. If those other countries held a grudge for 70+ years we would all be doomed!!". I know that for some people this is hard to understand, but this is the truth.

Also, the truth is that the Koreans and Chinese have gone overboard with the anti-Japanese propaganda. WAYYYYYYYYYYYY overboard, as i have explained.

Anyway, it's fine, go ahead. lol.

 

[Korra]

Time for a Korean to step in. I hope this doesn't offend you much, I'm still pump after beating up a bunch of trolls in chat.

@Eudaimonia,

People cause war. War doesn't fall out of the sky. You can't just say war is bad.

WW2

1) By Hitler, to unite Europe under Nazi name. He would be the supreme ruler.
2) The Japanese joined in, to conquer Asia so that they can rule as the supreme leader.

(MY PERSPECTIVES)

 

[Mark of Zorro]

How mighty pompus of you.

And I notice you did not answer the question. What is your purpose here?

You entered this thread with a lot of statements and a lot of links to back up some pretty hardline opinions. I just want to know why you have injected yourself into this thread so heavily and suddenly.

Yeah, I am suspicious. I have run into people doing this before. In their generalities they say the Japanese are not perfect and they made mistakes, but in their specifics its anything but.

So what is your purpose? Would it be a waste of time to point some things out to you or no?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I wasn't plotting a thesis. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of haters were doing searches.

About the child porn thing, what? No, the topic of "Why do many Chinese and Koreans hate Japanese?" is not in any way an opportunity to bring it up. Not at all. Geez.

Sorry, but for me child porn is just another topic. No need to read a bunch of extraneous things into it. I just brought it up to show that while some people in one country may be hard core extreme one way, there can be just as many more hardcore extreme the other. (in fact they are often the same people talking out the other side of their mouth!)

And it was you that brought up porn in the first place, I wondered what it was supposed to prove, and you gave no answer.

I am sure many Southern White slave owners considered their Black slaves as dirty animals, but still had sex with the females and loved every minute of it. What's it prove?

Now, if it were shown that Chinese busted their bandwidth viewing Japanese anime, I think that would help prove something.

 

[Korra]

How mighty pompus of you.

I want to clear up something here. I never said that the Japanese are saints, that they did nothing wrong in ww2, that there's no nationalism currently in Japan, never said that Japan is the most perfect country in the world, haven't said that they're all accepting the war crimes etc etc. If you think that i have you must read what i wrote again.

You want to "expose me to the truth"? If by the truth you mean the horrible things that the Japanese have done in ww2, i have read books - i have seen documentaries - i'd actually bet i've done this more than you have "Zorro"! If by the truth you mean the text-book controversies... i know the subject all too well - you'll fail to expose me to anything.

Though before you expose me to anything you must first explain how the Chinese and Koreans aren't hyporcites. Also, you must explain why they b*tch and moan more than the Europeans do about the Germans. Let me give an example: Lets say that there are three families. One is the Japanese family, one is the Korean family and the other is the Chinese family. If one member of the Japanese family has killed one member of the Chinese family and raped (it's doubtful but ok) one member of the Korean family MANY years ago then if since then the Korean family has killed one member of another family (the vietnam family) and if the Chinese family is currently holding hostage 2 members of other families (Uyghurs and Tibetans). Do they have any right to make any judgements?

So, maybe you should reread and you should understand that the essense of my thesis is in my last paragraph... War is bad, people aren't bad., i don't clearly say this but it should be an obvious conclusion of this: "Despite what you're told most countries in this world have done something bad to other countries. If those other countries held a grudge for 70+ years we would all be doomed!!". I know that for some people this is hard to understand, but this is the truth.

Also, the truth is that the Koreans and Chinese have gone overboard with the anti-Japanese propaganda. WAYYYYYYYYYYYY overboard, as i have explained.

Anyway, it's fine, go ahead. lol.

You're f***ing racist.

China and Korea are hypocrites? Suddenly gone mad, bro?
and we're b*ches? Okay, you're dead, I'm taking you down like Coldie over there


And sorry, you got stuck with a mad Korean here.
[REDACTED]and you're still [REDACTED]?!?!?!
I know the subject more than you. Just because you watched documentaries, and read books doesn't mean that you're a know it all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sir, don't know anything the Japanese done to Korea.

It's been only 70 years.
Korea and China can't forget what the Japanese did with out pride. You say that war is bad. How about the people who caused the war? They're people. And you're really racist.

btw, Textbooks were altered so that they won't take much blame for the WW2 things. Well, they DIDN'T apologize, and if they did, it wasn't sincere.

China and Korea still can't trust Japan. Why? They HAVEN'T changed. It seems like they did, but they didn't. Japan changed, yet unchanged.

http://www.philstar.com/sunday-life/2012-12-16/886421/japan-changed-yet-unchanged

 

[Korra]

Well, the reason should be obvious, but since the answers that this thread has got so far don't seem to be answering very much i'll try to help.

I have visited both China and Japan. I've been to Beijing for 12 days, and i've been to Kyoto and Tokyo for 10 days. I have many Japanese acquintances and my best friend is currently studying the Chinese language for 1 year in Beijing.

BUT lets start by examining the reasons that the Chinese and Koreans would give for hating the Japanese...


- The Japanese have never apologised.

True or False? Objectively false.

- The Japanese Prime ministers still visit the Yasukuni temple in which class A war criminals were enshrined.

Yasukuni is a temple in which less than 20 class A war criminals were enshrined. Yasukuni pays respect to all the people or animals (!) that gave their lives for Japan. That's why in Yasukuni there are MILLIONS enshrined. So... 14 out of ~2,500,000 !!!!! All the fuss is about 14 enshrined people, this makes the temple goers worshipers of war criminals etc according to the Chinese and Koreans. It's simply absurd. It makes no sense.

- The Japanese have never given compensations nor apologized to the comfort women.

True or False? False, the Japanese have given compensations on 2 seperate occasions. The second time it was accompanied with a personal apology from the prime minister!

What's the damn problem then? The problem is with the definition of what's a comfort women, and exactly what happened. Should the Japanese accept the definition that the Koreans want? The answer is: Not necesairily. The Japanese shouldn't accept everything that the hurt from them 70+ years ago say. I think that the world can live with 2 different slightly conflicting views on this issue.

At this point it should be noted that the Japanese gave the Chinese trillions (yes, you read correctly trillions) of yen in Official Development Assistance throughout the years after WW2. This is VERY important, if it wasn't for this China would be 5-10 years behind the point that it is now.


The problem is that most people can't possibly comprehent that the wrongdoings of the Japanese in ww2 aka 70+ years ago are used today as a form of ultra-nationalist anti-Japanese propaganda by the Koreans and Chinese.

How does this work, you may ask. I don't know exactly how it works in Korea (i haven't been there yet) but i do know how it works in China!

In China (i have read) that there's a total of ~120 tv channels. Anyway, my hotel had ~60 tv channels, because my best friend lived ~30 minutes away from my hotel and i travelled to Beijing alone i watched A LOT of Chinese tv. What did those ~60 tv channel show?

Almost all day long...

~26 channels show old China tv-series or movies.
~15 channels show tv-games, tv-shows, stuff like so you think you can dance etc.
~4 channels show the news. One in English.
~4 channels show relatively modern tv-series or movies.
~6 channels show the actions of the Japanese devils during ww2, as tv-series or movies!!!

Now imagine if you're European or American if all day long you were bombarded with movies and tv-series showing what the Germans did in ww2. How likely is it that you'll end up liking the Germans?

Now add to that that in the supreme majority of Chinese movies the bad guys are the Japanese, that in school the largest history chapter is on the "Japanese devils" actions in ww2, and that the media constantly downplay the positive aspects of Japan of the last ~70 years.

In China there are amusement parks where people go to kill "Japanese devils" (here's a link because it can be unbelievable that such a place exists), in shops around Beijing i saw souvenirs of Chinese soldiers beating up Japanese soldiers and Chinese soldiers taking the diaoyu/senkaku islands, there are signs in restaurants that Japanese are not allowed, in temple fairs i saw toy hammers that read "diaoyu's are Chinese" etc etc

~6 months ago there were anti-Japanese riots in which Japanese people were attacked, Japanese businesses and factories were burned to the ground, people who drove Japanese cars were often attacked, there was a Japanese book ban in Beijing for a little while, the Japanese were (almost) banned from the Beijing marathon, Children were taught how to attack Japanese cars and how to defend the diaoyu islands! etc etc

It's likely that i would hate Japan too if there was sooooooooooo much propaganda (yes, this is propaganda) against it in my country.

The reality though is that...

- Japan has changed and become a democratic country.

- Japan hasn't shot a single shot since ww2. This is especially interesting, because Japan was the second economy in the world (now is the third) for quite some time, and the Americans pressured Japan to abandon the peace constitution and take a more active role in Nato affairs. So, Japan could have a strong military and be quite different than it is today. Japan may be forced by the Chinese now to have a stronger military, we'll have to wait and see.

- Japan has probably the most anti-war culture in the whole world. I'll even mention a few of the better anti-war movies: The human condition 1,2,3, The emperor's naked army marches on, Fires on the Plain, Nikudan etc etc. People who watch anime may also have noticed anti-war themes, for example: Naruto, Gundam zero, Grave of the fireflies etc etc.


BUT lets look at China and Korea, what have they done since ww2?

Isn't it true that China occupies Tibet? How does China treat the Uyghurs minority? How about the 9-dash line? The constant rise in military expenditures?

What about the Koreans? They're surely saints arent they? Oh wait... best not forget the attrocities of vietnam!!!


Talk about hypocricy huh? Who should be ashamed? Should the Japanese be ashamed about all of this?


For those of you ready to answer me about me not understanding how bad the Japanese have been, about dokdo/diaoyu which they have stolen from "you" etc. My grandfather died by the hands of the Germans but simply because we don't have anti-German propaganda over here i don't hate the Germans of today for it NOR should the Koreans and Chinese hate the Japanese for what their grandparents (of the Japanese) did to their grandparents (of the Chinese & Koreans). Despite what you're told most countries in this world have done something bad to other countries. If those other countries held a grudge for 70+ years we would all be doomed!!

We never said that we were saints. YOU'RE FU**** RACIST, AND ID LOVE TO SEE YOUR END.

 

[Korra]

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Korean WWII sex slaves fight on

 

[nahadef]

Sorry, but for me child porn is just another topic. No need to read a bunch of extraneous things into it. I just brought it up to show that while some people in one country may be hard core extreme one way, there can be just as many more hardcore extreme the other. (in fact they are often the same people talking out the other side of their mouth!)
And it was you that brought up porn in the first place, I wondered what it was supposed to prove, and you gave no answer.
I am sure many Southern White slave owners considered their Black slaves as dirty animals, but still had sex with the females and loved every minute of it. What's it prove?
Now, if it were shown that Chinese busted their bandwidth viewing Japanese anime, I think that would help prove something.

No, child porn is your personal crusade, and it's likely that you are the only member of this forum who might have added it to this conversation. That's your thing, and it's grating to pretty much all that aren't you. Try and get a single person to stick up for you on this. I'll listen to anyone who isn't you on this point, and probably not in this thread.

I brought up that 'article' because I do think people fetishize what they 'hate,' making me think that a large number of people who made Japan a top porn-search query probably slander Japanese publicly on the streets of China. Not because Chinese are like that or anything, but that people can be like that, especially when they draw lines in the sand. It's very fitting that the country with the harshest anti-Japanese rhetoric has Japan all over its porn filters. But it had zero to child porn, particularly if you went to the actual site from the article. You'd note that 'kids' never comes up in the top 10. I beg you not to explain why I'm wrong, since it will just emphasize my point.

Chinese people lust after Japan in a lot of ways, from sex to daily lifestyle, and it's totally understandable. China is a repressive regime, and Japan is only a little repressive.

 

[Eudaimonia]

I just want to know why you have injected yourself into this thread so heavily and suddenly.

So, a big argument with much evidence = "injecting oneself into a thread heavily and suddenly".

Maybe i should have written only 1% of that without any links etc, that would be better for you. lol.

Do you have anything of substance to say or are you just going to continue forever with the foreplay?



By the way, i reported Korra for attacking me personaly without a reason instead of replying properly.

 

[thomas]

Korra will have one week of forced absence to reflect on her actions here.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

So, a big argument with much evidence = "injecting oneself into a thread heavily and suddenly".

Maybe i should have written only 1% of that without any links etc, that would be better for you. lol.

Well that all depends on what your purpose is. And if part of it is to bury the truth, one of the tactics is too stymie the opposition with a bunch of links and evidence that are not quite on the money or besides the point etc.

So I ask you for the THIRD TIME, what is your purpose here? Incredible how much difficulty that simple question is giving you, isn't it?

Do you have anything of substance to say or are you just going to continue forever with the foreplay?

I won't waste my time with someone who can't answer even the most basic of questions. By that I mean that I might address your points, but I sure won't bother responding much to your counter-points because it seems to me you are playing some sort of game.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

No, child porn is your personal crusade, and it's likely that you are the only member of this forum who might have added it to this conversation. That's your thing, and it's grating to pretty much all that aren't you. Try and get a single person to stick up for you on this. I'll listen to anyone who isn't you on this point, and probably not in this thread.

Its a type of porn, and people look at it for the same reasons as any other porn. You have added extra emotional connotations. Not my problem. The point was how people are duplicitous about sexual subjects. Sorry if you don't like my example, but its perfectly rational, and as you indicate, its something I know about. I seriously only brought it up because it fits, same with the Southern slave owner example. That is all there was to it.

I brought up that 'article' because I do think people fetishize what they 'hate,'

Interesting theory. But I wonder if you have considered that some may be searching for evidence to prove Japan is evil? Of course I think that would only account for small percentage myself, but I have no evidence.

But back to fetishizing what you hate...I would think that there is simply more availability of Japanese porn and its good quality. Further, how many Chinese blame the women for the war or denial of wartime atrocities? No, I am sure they blame the men, who would have been the soldiers and are most of the politicians.

So I really only see your theory working for Chinese men looking for Japanese gay porn.

I beg you not to explain why I'm wrong, since it will just emphasize my point.

That would be greatly aided by not injecting connotations that aren't there.

Chinese people lust after Japan in a lot of ways, from sex to daily lifestyle, and it's totally understandable. China is a repressive regime, and Japan is only a little repressive.

Yeah but negative feelings about Japan for wartime atrocities and especially continued denial of them are quite understandable. Having those negative feelings does not preclude the Chinese from liking other aspects of Japanese culture.

At a rally concerning atrocities they naturally would not bring up things they like about Japanese culture, and they may indeed act like they hate them. But that is pretty standard behavior and hardly surprising (although I hate that people do that!)

 

[Eudaimonia]

Well that all depends on what your purpose is. And if part of it is to bury the truth

You really amuse me... "Bury the truth" he says, lol.

Anyway. Here you go...

Is it do defend principles like truth, justice and fairness?

Yes.

...you may proceed.

By that I mean that I might address your points, but I sure won't bother responding much to your counter-points because blah blah

BUT please don't proceed unless you're willing to answer my counter-points.

 

[nahadef]

You have added extra emotional connotations. Not my problem. The point was how people are duplicitous about sexual subjects.

No, it's you bringing it into yet another conversation where it doesn't apply whatsoever.

I'm out.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Okay, one point at a time, not really to trap you, but to at least at first, test the waters.

- The Japanese Prime ministers still visit the Yasukuni temple in which class A war criminals were enshrined.

Yasukuni is a temple in which less than 20 class A war criminals were enshrined. Yasukuni pays respect to all the people or animals (!) that gave their lives for Japan. That's why in Yasukuni there are MILLIONS enshrined. So... 14 out of ~2,500,000 !!!!! All the fuss is about 14 enshrined people, this makes the temple goers worshipers of war criminals etc according to the Chinese and Koreans. It's simply absurd. It makes no sense.

Class A war criminals are those guilty of crimes against peace. I think those tend to be the politicians. Whether they are the worst would be a matter of opinion. But they are not the only ones enshrined at Yasukuni. You overlook the class B and class C war criminals, the Bs being guilty of basic war crimes and Cs of crimes against humanity, those that massacred and raped up close and personal or directly ordered it. And I would think its the class C that really get under the skin of a lot of people. There are 1068 class B and C war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni, and these men were executed for their crimes.

And its not like these guys were enshrined right away either. There was obviously a problem with them, as any would expect. And thus there was not even talk of enshrining them until about 1970.

So no, the "fuss" is not about 14 men. Its about 1068 + 14 = 1082 men, many of whom committed horrible crimes against China, etc. and Chinese people etc. some of whom are the parents and grandparents of some of these people who have a problem with Yasukuni. You won't find any similar respects paid to any war criminal in Germany. Even in the very rare cases where Americans were punished for war crimes and given the pathetic punishment of courts martial only, you won't find those bastards at Arlington National Cemetery or paid respects of any kind.

As if all that were not bad enough, the Class As are listed as MARTYRS of Emperor Showa! MARTYRS for Chrissake! Can you imagine if Hitler and Goering were officially called martyrs of Sacred Germany??? Funny thing is that Showa Tenno refused to visit Yasukuni t pay respects to his "martyrs" from 1978 until he died, specifically because those men were enshrined there!!

Now, how could anyone defend Yasukuni without feeling that Japan did no wrong during the war??? What, they just feel its not really important all the raping and murdering that happened, and national pride is somehow more more important??? What sick fck thinks like that? Why should any respect be given them or Yasukuni?

Hell no! No way! Yasukuni is a big fat denial of all wrong doing. And to add to the proof there is this: The priests say the enshrined souls cannot be separated and removed (and I can't say if its crap or not as I am not Shinto ). Oh, well, instead both at the shrine and at the museum there, they could list their names and the crimes which they committed. But no, neither do. They pointedly omit any mention of the atrocities those scumbags committed.

Yasukuni is nothing but a giant slap in the face to decent human beings who rightly despise wars, atrocities and the scum who commit them. You cannot just sidestep the respect those scum are paid while their crimes are just ignored like they never happened!

Its obvious to all what is going on except the very naive. So I ask, which are you? The naive? Or the supporter of scum? The question is not rhetorical. I am not going to bother with you if you are going to hide behind pride and refuse accept this information and properly incorporate it. I sure as hell won't bother if you are going to continue acting like Yasukuni is just some neutral place we should all feel neutral about, cause that is obscene.

Controversies surrounding Yasukuni Shrine - Wikipedia

 

[Mark of Zorro]

No, it's you bringing it into yet another conversation where it doesn't apply whatsoever.

I'm out.

For consistency's sake I always bring in things for comparison and make analogies, same is you brought in porn to this topic. You are just blinded by petty emotions as if I mentioned witchcraft in 1538 in neutral terms.

I guess you and I have both changed since coming to this forum and not for the better. You used to have a better eye for logic.

 

[Eudaimonia]

Class A war criminals are those guilty of crimes against peace. I think those tend to be the politicians. Whether they are the worst would be a matter of opinion. But they are not the only ones enshrined at Yasukuni. You overlook the class B and class C war criminals, the Bs being guilty of basic war crimes and Cs of crimes against humanity, those that massacred and raped up close and personal or directly ordered it. And I would think its the class C that really get under the skin of a lot of people. There are 1068 class B and C war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni, and these men were executed for their crimes.

I actually have had this discussion with various Chinese from time to time and they don't seem to care very much about the ~1k, but i don't mind here you go i fixed it... 1k out of 2,5 million. Should i edit it too? It changes nothing.

You won't find any similar respects paid to any war criminal in Germany.

I may not find simmilar respects payed to war criminals in Germany but in germany there's a neonazi village! So, i prefer 1k names written in a shrine. Also, there's other things wrong with Germany but i don't have to mention them yet. The neonazi village is enough. I'd love to see how the Koreans and Chinese would react to a Emperor-worshiping "ww2 attrocities denying" village. I bet it would be their best excuse for ultra-nationalist anti-Japanese propaganda yet.

Even in the very rare cases where Americans were punished for war crimes and given the pathetic punishment of courts martial only, you won't find those bastards at Arlington National Cemetery or paid respects of any kind.

Well, we don't know what would happen if there was actual justice rather than the justice of the winners after ww2. The war crimes of the allies were many and horrible. Also, western nations tend to somehow avoid war crimes.

As if all that were not bad enough, the Class As are listed as MARTYRS of Emperor Showa! MARTYRS for Chrissake! Can you imagine if Hitler and Goering were officially called martyrs of Sacred Germany??? Funny thing is that Showa Tenno refused to visit Yasukuni t pay respects to his "martyrs" from 1978 until he died, specifically because those men were enshrined there!!

As far as i know all the people who died in battle during the showa emperor era are listed as Martyrs of showa. There's nothing more to be said about this.

Now, how could anyone defend Yasukuni without feeling that Japan did no wrong during the war???

I'd rather that there are no war memorials, as long as there are war memorials i'm going to defend Yasukuni shrine because i don't like hypocricy. It's as easy as that. Most war memorials are memorials made to war criminals, men turned into beasts to fight for their country. As i've said... People aren't bad, war is bad.

The priests (...) pointedly omit any mention of the atrocities those scumbags committed.

Wouldn't mind them mentioning the wrong doings, we can agree on that.


Anyway, i have a few questions for you...
The execution of the Japanese war crimminals wasn't enough of a penalty for their deeds? I don't know the answer, but i'm leaning towards: "Yes".

Also, considering the question above... What should the people of the countries harmed by war crimminals that were never tried and never received any penalty feel about them being burried with honours somewhere?

Let me give an example: Should the Japanese be angry about this... Chomsky mentions a fact that few people know ??

Another question... What right does any country have to dictate to a foreign prime minister if he's going to visit the memmorial/shrine where almost all the war dead of his country are burried/enshrined in?

All of this returns to my last paragraph, i really can't imagine you writting anything that could affect it...

Despite what you're told most countries in this world have done something bad to other countries. If those other countries held a grudge for 70+ years we would all be doomed!!

Generally you seem to have a very unrealistic aproach to how things work in the world. You seem to think that the Korean and Chinese people know about and remember these things on their own somehow without no external help. In other words you probably think that if there was no anti-japanese propaganda in those 2 countries they'd still pationately hate the Japanese. The truth is that if it was in the best interests of the Chinese and Korean governments they'd stop the propaganda and in a generation almost noone would hate anyone. It's as simple as that, this is the way it works in every country of the world.

 

[nahadef]

You are just blinded by petty emotions

Ah, the "you are blind" argument. You give yourself too much credit for having vision, and too little respect to others for having a different one than yours. It's genuinely arrogant, and no way to have a discussion.