Complete newb to learning Japanese

[RyanReese09]

So I've been reading up on various ways to begin my journey of learning Japanese. Many seem to go straight into learning phrases and words...but I have my doubts about starting at such a location.

How should I really be going about learning this? I figured learning the alphabet and how they are pronounced would be a good start, then learning basic words...etc...I'd dribble on from there.

I know it varies person to person how to learn a language...but still. Also I've been reading much about various types of ...uhm...styles of writing (poor word choice) in Japanese?

http : // www . freejapaneselessons . com/lesson01. cfm

Hiragana is one type. There is another for speaking if I remember correctly. Kanji? Perhaps?
I'd prefer to learn online. How long should mastering the alphabet (and how they are pronounced) take? I assume it would be very beneficial for me to start there?

Oh, and I'm Ryan Reese. New here (but not to forums).

Ah, seems as if the URL is being blocked due to the spam filter. No worries, as long as the moderators do not care, I shall just break up the URL. I'm not a spam bot or anything like that so it should be fine.

 

[Mike Cash]

Nobody ever does it anymore, but how about using a pedagogically sound textbook and associated materials?

 

[RyanReese09]

Well this thread was more in search of the steps to take, from there I can decide the right path of where to learn it .

 

[Coffeesan]

Hey Ryan

I've been using that exact site its brilliant for basics. I would advise learning the full Hiragana list first. People often say learn hiragana and katakana first but to be honest katakana isnt as important for beginners in my opinion. Hiragana is used the most. As for Kanji theres over 2000 symbols, a lot of Japanese people dont even know them all so dont beat yourself up if you cant learn them all just try and learn a few which seem useful.

After you've learnt Hiragana I would start looking at sentence structure etc. The verb comes at the end of the sentence in Japanese (a bit like how Yoda speaks lol) and you need to master particles they are very important and also very confusing at first. Particularly the most important particle 'wa' its always written using the hiragana symbol for 'ha' which is just bloody annoying and confusing.

Learning to count and tell the time is actually very easy in Japanese I would do both of these as beginner activities because their not only useful but get you started on basic Kanji characters and get you learning the phonetics of the language!

 

[RyanReese09]

Hey Ryan
I've been using that exact site its brilliant for basics. I would advise learning the full Hiragana list first. People often say learn hiragana and katakana first but to be honest katakana isnt as important for beginners in my opinion. Hiragana is used the most. As for Kanji theres over 2000 symbols, a lot of Japanese people dont even know them all so dont beat yourself up if you cant learn them all just try and learn a few which seem useful.

Thanks for this! I'll learn Hiragana first. Though to be honest, what other versions of Hiragana are there? Like, Kanji is another...can you list all the types? Or is there too many? What is each for? Their purpose? I just want to make sure I understand what I'm learning. Sorry if this is painfully obvious with some searching, but I have yet to find the answer.

After you've learnt Hiragana I would start looking at sentence structure etc. The verb comes at the end of the sentence in Japanese (a bit like how Yoda speaks lol) and you need to master particles they are very important and also very confusing at first. Particularly the most important particle 'wa' its always written using the hiragana symbol for 'ha' which is just bloody annoying and confusing.

Gotcha. Will do.

Learning to count and tell the time is actually very easy in Japanese I would do both of these as beginner activities because their not only useful but get you started on basic Kanji characters and get you learning the phonetics of the language!

As soon as I learn Hiragana and the symbols and what not I'll definitely put time on the top of my list. Thanks!

So Hiragana symbols and what not...is this like...normal Japanese? Like, would I be able to only use Hiragani, and be able to have talks with other Japanese fellows? Or would I need to know some Khanji (perhaps some other stuff?)

I'd prefer a really detailed answer, or at least a link to an article I can read. I'm sorry in advance to those who have to deal with my nitpicky questions.

Excuse the double post. But on the site I finally read some of it. I fail.

The characters in the chart below are called Hiragana. It is the main alphabet or character set for Japanese. The Japanese language also consists of two other character sets - Kanji (Chinese characters), which we will get into later, and another alphabet/character set, Katakana, which is mainly used for foreign words. Katakana will be covered in Lesson 2.

So there are 3...I guess I should go through the first lessions, and if I have any questions I'll direct them to this forum! Anything else I should know? Or should I blindly just follow that sites instructions?

Add anything you wish you knew when learning Japanese (learning steps etc) .

 

[Mike Cash]

By definition, pedagogically sound materials relieve you of the burden of trying to figure out what to learn and in what order.

 

[RyanReese09]

By definition, pedagogically sound materials relieve you of the burden of trying to figure out what to learn and in what order.

True. I have many podcasts on my iPod which will be another aid in learning.
For learning the character set Hiragani, this is going to sound stupid, but how should I really learn it? Learn a character symbol, the letter associated, and the sound? Once I feel I can do that, go onto another symbol?
I have never attempted to learn another language before.
Also, on http : // www . freejapaneselessons.com/lesson01 . cfm
I don't understand the combinations. At the end of each combination (in each column) the same symbol is next to a character. Are those all the combinations? Should I be learning them? What will they do? Will combinations be used to make words? (I assume so because those are just characters...but then why make such a small "combinations list" such as on that page..hmmm)...
Those threw me a curveball. Clarifications welcome.

 

[Mike Cash]

I regret wasting your time. Please continue.

 

[RyanReese09]

I regret wasting your time. Please continue.

You weren't wasting it at all! (If this is sarcasm and I've somehow pissed you off then please excuse me, my ignorance has a habit of doing that).

 

[Mike Cash]

You've not angered me and I wasn't being sarcastic. I offered the best advice I know how to give and you indicate that you prefer the wander-about-blindly and reinvent-the-wheel method over professionally prepared structured materials with a far better track record than websites, which are often of dubious usefulness.

That's all I had to offer in the way of advice. If it is not what you wanted to hear, then I regret wasting your time with useless advice. Please continue.

 

[RyanReese09]

Well...it's not that I really want to do the way I said. It's just how I thought it should logically be approached. I'm not saying it's better. If I could have my above questions answered that'd be nice.

 

[Mike Cash]

In short: get a textbook.

Doing it on the cheap from free websites is fine if you intend to join the masses of people who have learned poorly and given up quickly. If you are serious about learning, spend a little money and buy proper materials (which have the answers to all your questions here and will lead you through them). For best results, find and take a class.

The difference between what I am suggesting and the way you're starting out is the difference between being taken by the hand and led through a maze and stumbling through blindfolded banging into walls.

 

[RyanReese09]

In short: get a textbook.
Doing it on the cheap from free websites is fine if you intend to join the masses of people who have learned poorly and given up quickly. If you are serious about learning, spend a little money and buy proper materials (which have the answers to all your questions here and will lead you through them). For best results, find and take a class.
The difference between what I am suggesting and the way you're starting out is the difference between being taken by the hand and led through a maze and stumbling through blindfolded banging into walls.

Will get a book then thanks! Any suggestions?
Also something struck me odd. In an above link I've given, there are a total of 104 characters+ "combinations"
http :// www . linguanaut . com /japanese_alphabet . htm
That link above has 108. Would you mind going through and seeing which is accurate? Or if they are b oth inaccurate? I'd like to know the full list asap. I've learned A E I O U so far, so I shall be drilling them tonight.
I won't be able to get a book until Friday and I'd like to start learning the character set.

Also for the first link I posted earlier in this thread, those combinations...the vowel always goes after a consonant, and is written in smaller font? I'm sure I'll find out why, just confirming.

Sorry to badger with questions .

 

[Half-n-Half]

I'd also like to add a lot of it is motivation. Your motivation will most certainly fluctuate as you learn, but without motivation it becomes real old real quick. Taking an intro class at my uni did wonders for my motivation. It introduced me to how fun learning a language can be and before I knew it I found myself studying outside of class ahead of the text. After that, though, I studied purely on my own without a textbook for a summer until I again took a class in Japan, which used the 完全マスター２級－１級 series. Those books, at least the nikyuu and ikkyuu levels rely less on explanations and more on examples and are strictly grammar books.

If you have no motivation you'll get nowhere, unless you take a class and are forced to study else fail. I enjoyed the kanzen mastaa books so you can check those out for grammar. They seem to be very pricey on Amazon, however.

 

[RyanReese09]

I'd also like to add a lot of it is motivation. Your motivation will most certainly fluctuate as you learn, but without motivation it becomes real old real quick. Taking an intro class at my uni did wonders for my motivation. It introduced me to how fun learning a language can be and before I knew it I found myself studying outside of class ahead of the text. After that, though, I studied purely on my own without a textbook for a summer until I again took a class in Japan, which used the ﾅ?ﾂｮ窶牢ﾆ筑ﾆ湛ﾆ耽ﾂー窶啣窶ｹ窶ｰﾂ−窶啀窶ｹ窶ｰ series. Those books, at least the nikyuu and ikkyuu levels rely less on explanations and more on examples and are strictly grammar books.
If you have no motivation you'll get nowhere, unless you take a class and are forced to study else fail. I enjoyed the kanzen mastaa books so you can check those out for grammar. They seem to be very pricey on amazon, however.

I have loads of motivation (personal reasons) so that shouldn't really be a problem. My job doesn't pay allthat much and I just looked into hiring a tutor, that is a possibility at this point.
Those are quite pricey . Do you know of any books I could get at a local library? I just serached my countys online catalog of japanese learning and like 100 hits came up (even more exist).
Just so it isn't forgotten, the character set question in my previous post is still puzzling me .

 

[Mike Cash]

I used "Learn Japanese: New College Text", which some like and some don't. Also used "An Introduction to Modern Japanese". That was a few years before you born and there are likely several newer textbooks out there that I just simply don't know about.

I am at work and posting from my iPhone so I really can't take a look at the charts you mentioned at the moment. Perhaps someone else can do that for you.

 

[RyanReese09]

I used "Learn Japanese: New College Text", which some like and some don't. Also used "An Introduction to Modern Japanese". That was a few years before you born and there are likely several newer textbooks out there that I just simply don't know about.

I am at work and posting from my iPhone so I really can't take a look at the charts you mentioned at the moment. Perhaps someone else can do that for you.

Thank you. I was hoping noone would need to look at charts (I posted for reference) and that the information was just in head but I shall wait patiently .

Unless someone mentions other books I'll go with those two.

 

[Half-n-Half]

The chart in the second link includes ぢゃ(jya) ぢゅ(jyu) ゑ(we) ゐ(wi). The first two are usually substituted with じゃ and じゅ (same sounds). The last two (ゑ、ゐ) are pretty much obsolete and not used anymore.

 

[RyanReese09]

The chart in the second link includes ぢゃ(jya) ぢゅ(jyu) ゑ(we) ゐ(wi). The first two are usually substituted with じゃ and じゅ (same sounds). The last two (ゑ、ゐ) are pretty much obsolete and not used anymore.

Ah ok makes sense. Thanks! I'll just learn the alphabet via the first link.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Mike Cash]

The two books I mentioned should be an either-or thing; don't get both.

 

[RyanReese09]

The two books I mentioned should be an either-or thing; don't get both.

I appreciate the clarification. I actually just found out one of my friend knows Japanese! Interesting.

 

[Mike Cash]

Friends who know Japanese are a good reason to have a textbook.

 

[RyanReese09]

Friends who know Japanese are a good reason to have a textbook.

Let me clarify, hes studied for 2 years, doesn't know everything, and will not be a replacement as a tutor or anything like taht for my studies.

So yes, it's a very good reason to continue still getting a textbook.

 

[AJBryant]

The two most popular text series currently are Genki and Nakama. Check them out on Amazon, see what comments people are making, and Google the two names for reviews and opinions, and decide which is better.

Above all, get ONE book and follow it. Don't bounce about between a bunch of books -- you'll only confuse yourself and mess up the process.

 

[Mike Cash]

If a given book has associated audio materials (CD etc) that should weigh its favor and you should definitely try to get them. Japanese has a more limited set if sounds than English, but includes some sounds we don't have, so audio materials are very useful. They can help you avoid forming poor pronunciation/intonation habits early on that you'll have to unlearn later. Good pronunciation habits formed early are important.