Need a word or phrase translated?

[laurie]

Uh, the term "archaic" I mentioned above refers to almost "ancient," Heian Era, Nara Era, the era when the expression such like あれが初めてだったんだ never existed. 二重敬語(sometimes called 最高敬語) in archaic grammar, e.g. させ給ふ, おはします, was used to show who the subject/actor was without using a personal pronoun, because it was considered that to say directly an Imperial family's name was disrespectful.

Thank you. That's really interesting. It makes me think of the character "names" in Genji Monogatari all being just titles or places where they live or whatever, and I think maybe I've read that even those were added later so the poor reader can cope more easily.

So, is it an error by the author then? (plus, the dude's name is right there in the sentence, so that kind of defeats the purpose of the circumlocution anyway).

Suppose one did want to make おっしゃる passive, not for added respect but because one actually wants a passive sentence- is it possible?

(BTW, I apologize if I'm boring you guys now- it's not like there's anything particularly important about this one phrase- it's just how I learn; my poor brain doesn't know how to let go of things, lol).

 

[Elizabeth]

Thank you. That's really interesting. It makes me think of the character "names" in Genji Monogatari all being just titles or places where they live or whatever, and I think maybe I've read that even those were added later so the poor reader can cope more easily.
So, is it an error by the author then? (plus, the dude's name is right there in the sentence, so that kind of defeats the purpose of the circumlocution anyway).
Suppose one did want to make おっしゃる passive, not for added respect but because one actually wants a passive sentence- is it possible?

I thought because Ossharu was an original contraction or corruption of Ossharareru was the reason it doesn't take a passive.

 

[laurie]

I thought because Ossharu was an original contraction or corruption of Ossharareru was the reason it doesn't take a passive.

Ah, that totally makes sense. Thanks again.

 

[Toritoribe]

It makes me think of the character "names" in Genji Monogatari all being just titles or places where they live or whatever, and I think maybe I've read that even those were added later so the poor reader can cope more easily.

That's true. As you might know, even the protagonist was never referred to by his given name in the story. 光 was just from the verb used in his nickname 光る君.

So, is it an error by the author then? (plus, the dude's name is right there in the sentence, so that kind of defeats the purpose of the circumlocution anyway).

Yes. Grammatically, it should be たき様が我儘をおっしゃったのはあれが初めてだったんだ. But according to a report, many people(about 60%) feel おっしゃられる is acceptable in these days. The language is constantly changing...

Suppose one did want to make おっしゃる passive, not for added respect but because one actually wants a passive sentence- is it possible?

おっしゃる is 尊敬語, the verb form for paying respect to the actor(sayer.) Thus, if おっしゃられる is the passive form of おっしゃる, たき様が我儘をおっしゃられた expresses that respect is for the person who spoke to たき, not for たき himself. In fact, this passive form doesn't exist.
When たき is the person who was spoken to and the receiver of respect, 申す/申し上げる(謙譲語[the humble verb form] of 言う) is used.

たき様にわがままを申し上げた。
I/Someone behaved selfishly/unresonably toward Taki.

(BTW, I apologize if I'm boring you guys now- it's not like there's anything particularly important about this one phrase- it's just how I learn; my poor brain doesn't know how to let go of things, lol).

No, no, no problem. It's obviously appropriate to ask these questions here in this forum.

 

[Elizabeth]

おっしゃる is 尊敬語, the verb form for paying respect to the actor(sayer.) Thus, if おっしゃられる is the passive form of おっしゃる, たき様が我儘をおっしゃられた expresses that respect is for the person who spoke to たき, not for たき himself. In fact, this passive form doesn't exist.
When たき is the person who was spoken to and the receiver of respect, 申す/申し上げる(謙譲語[the humble verb form] of 言う) is used.
たき様にわがままを申し上げた。

It's obviously a different sentence, but I still don't see what is strange or wrong if a passive did exist for おっしゃる （たき様におっしゃられた。。。）。 Other honorifics take them, such as 召し上がる、なさる、あがる etc. But for some reason not いらっしゃる、おっしゃる or になる。。。

 

[laurie]

おっしゃる is 尊敬語, the verb form for paying respect to the actor(sayer.) Thus, if おっしゃられる is the passive form of おっしゃる, たき様が我儘をおっしゃられた expresses that respect is for the person who spoke to たき, not for たき himself. In fact, this passive form doesn't exist.
When たき is the person who was spoken to and the receiver of respect, 申す/申し上げる(謙譲語[the humble verb form] of 言う) is used.
たき様にわがままを申し上げた。
I/Someone behaved selfishly/unresonably toward Taki.

This is all so clearly beyond my level of competence, lol. But your explanation is excellent and I think I can basically follow it (at least enough so that my brain can let it go and just say "language is weird- watch for that in the future").

No, no, no problem. It's obviously appropriate to ask these questions here in this forum.

Then I will no doubt rudely bother you all again some more next time. Thanks again.

 

[Toritoribe]

It's obviously a different sentence, but I still don't see what is strange or wrong if a passive did exist for おっしゃる （たき様におっしゃられた。。。）。 Other honorifics take them, such as 召し上がる、なさる、あがる etc. But for some reason not いらっしゃる、おっしゃる or になる。。。

Right. To say more accurately, "おっしゃられる is never used as the passive form (as same as 召し上がる/上がる、なさる、いらっしゃる)", and "there's no way except to paraphrase it in a case where the passive form is needed".

×先生に(私が)小言をおっしゃられた(passive)

○先生が(私に)小言をおっしゃった(paraphrase as the active form)
○先生に/から小言を頂いた(paraphrase as the humble verb form of 貰う. This expression is actually not so respectful, often used as sarcasm, though.)

Ah, in addition, おっしゃる is corruption of 仰せ有る[おほせある], not おっしゃられる.;-)

 

[Elizabeth]

Right. To say more accurately, "おっしゃられる is never used as the passive form (as same as 召し上がる/上がる、なさる、いらっしゃる)", and "there's no way except to paraphrase it in a case where the passive form is needed".

ありがとうございます！

ハハ、なるほど。。。。動詞用法辞典に出てくるような分類はちょっと不当表示みたいですね。




「召し上がられる」のか代わりに、「お召し上がりになられる(受身形)」などを使うべきだ？？

 

[Jericho Desu]

Hey guys, what does the verb さそります mean? I heard it in 'Lets learn Japanese' that show with Yan in it in its te form (さそって), but they didn't get into detail about it. The context was that someone suggested to someone else to invite Yan to a disco, so my guess was that it means "to invite", but checking online for invite in Japanese it came up with
招く (まねく).

Anyone help? Thanks.

 

[Elizabeth]

Hey guys, what does the verb さそります mean? I heard it in 'Lets learn Japanese' that show with Yan in it in its te form (さそって), but they didn't get into detail about it. The context was that someone suggested to someone else to invite Yan to a disco, so my guess was that it means "to invite", but checking online for invite in Japanese it came up with
招く (まねく).

Anyone help? Thanks.

さそいます。。。 ります is only for Class 1 verbs ending in る(乗る、帰る、入れる、など。。。)


誘う 【さそう(P); いざなう】 (v5u,vt) (1) (いざなう is arch) to invite; to ask; to call (for); (2) to tempt; to lure; to induce;

 

[Jericho Desu]

さそいます。。。 ります is only for Class 1 verbs ending in る(乗る、帰る、入れる、など。。。)


誘う 【さそう(P); いざなう】 (v5u,vt) (1) (いざなう is arch) to invite; to ask; to call (for); (2) to tempt; to lure; to induce;

I see, I didn't know what its 辞書の形 was so I tried using this song:

い ち り （って）
み び に （んで）
き （いて） ぎ （いで）
し （して）
れいがい いきます （いって）
(Oh my darling version)

and guessed り

Thanks!

 

[Elizabeth]

I see, I didn't know what its 辞書の形 was so I tried using this song:
い ち り （って）
み び に （んで）
き （いて） ぎ （いで）
し （して）
れいがい いきます （いって）
(Oh my darling version)
and guessed り
Thanks!

Oh, that is priceless!

When formal grammar is banned from my mind...


Also in a deadlock you can look up by the first さそ hiragana to get what comes up here:

WWWJDIC: Word Search

 

[Jericho Desu]

Oh, that is priceless! :emoji_thumbsup:
When formal grammar is banned from my mind...:emoji_grinning:

Awesome I'd never have thought of that, thanks! :emoji_thumbsup:

 

[Toritoribe]

ありがとうございます！
ハハ、なるほど。。。。動詞用法辞典に出てくるような分類はちょっと不当表示みたいですね。

「召し上がられる」のか代わりに、「お召し上がりになられる(受身形)」などを使うべきだ？？

いえ、前のポストにも書きましたが、基本的に尊敬語・謙譲語の受身形というものは存在しません。理論的には存在しても使われることがないという意味において。最大の理由は、敬意の受け手が行為者なのか行為の対象者なのかが曖昧になることです。尊敬語・謙譲語に助動詞「れる/られる」をつけた場合、それらは受身ではなく二重敬語として解釈されます。(一段動詞では「差し上げられる 」のように可能の場合もありえますが。)

「召し上がられる」は二重敬語として文法上間違っていますし、「お召し上がりになられる」も「お召し上がりになる」自体が二重敬語なので三重敬語と解釈されて耳障りになります。どちらも受身として使われることも解釈されることもありません。
(「お召し上がりになる」は「召し上がる」と 「お～になる」が合わさった二重敬語ですが、すでに定着しているとして許容されています。)

(２) 「二重敬語」とその適否
一つの語について，同じ種類の敬語を二重に使ったものを「二重敬語」という。例えば，「お読みになられる」は，「読む」を「お読みになる」と尊敬語にした上で，更に尊敬語の「……れる」を加えたもので，二重敬語である。
「二重敬語」は，一般に適切ではないとされている。ただし，語によっては，習慣として定着しているものもある。

【習慣として定着している二重敬語の例】
・（尊敬語） お召し上がりになる，お見えになる
・（謙譲語Ⅰ）お伺いする，お伺いいたす，お伺い申し上げる

平成19年 文化審議会答申 敬語の指針
Wayback Machine

今は間違いとされている二重敬語の「おっしゃられる」も、そのうち許容範囲になるかもしれませんね。

 

[Ryan-]

One of my students just asked how to say "mythical creature" in Japanese. They're doing a store project, don't ask. The best I could come up with is 妖怪. Is there a better word?

Oh, that is priceless!
When formal grammar is banned from my mind...
Also in a deadlock you can look up by the first さそ hiragana to get what comes up here:

I have a similar song I teach my students.

う つ る って
ぶ む ぬ んで
く いて
ぐ いで
す して
Are the て and た baaaaases.

It's kinda lame without the music though. ☝

 

[Toritoribe]

One of my students just asked how to say "mythical creature" in Japanese. They're doing a store project, don't ask. The best I could come up with is 妖怪. Is there a better word?

架空の生き物/想像上の生き物

 

[aardwolf]

「まぢ」はどういう意味ですか？
Used like this, まぢ寒い

 

[Elizabeth]

「まぢ」はどういう意味ですか？
Used like this, まぢ寒い

まぢとは言わない。マジとは言う。 :emoji_thinking:

 

[Ashikaga]

「まぢ」はどういう意味ですか？
Used like this, まぢ寒い

It is a slang that means "really/seriously". It comes from 真面目に（まじめに）.

Examples : A 「今日、日本語の抜き打ちテストがあるっていう噂だよ。」
B 「まじ？ どうしよう．．．俺、まだひらがなも覚えてない。」


A 「ねぇ、新しい転校生見た？」
Ｂ 「あぁ、アシカガ？」
Ａ 「そうそう！ まじかっこいいよねぇ～」

 

[indigozeal]

In a shounen manga, a young reporter is interviewing a scientist. The scientist's brilliant mentor just left the company, and everyone constantly compares the scientist's work unfavorably to that of his predecessor. The reporter suddenly asks:

「けどさすが。。。なんつーの？出奔した天才科学者。。。あいつの下についてた
だけはあるよな」

I'm afraid the above sentence is near-completely eliding me. I understand that the "shita ni tsuku" refers to the scientist's position as a subordinate, but I don't understand how that would work with the "sasuga...dake (no koto) wa aru" construction. (Does it instead refer to how the scientist "could only be viewed as a step down" or a let down from his predecessor?) I also don't understand how exactly the "nan tsuu" reflects on the sentence - the only sources I can find define the phrase as something like "what the hell", which doesn't really work here.

I don't want to sound stupid, but the sentence seems like one big Gordian knot to me. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Ashikaga]

「けどさすが。。。なんつーの？出奔した天才科学者。。。あいつの下についてた
だけはあるよな」
I'm afraid the above sentence is near-completely eliding me. I understand that the "shita ni tsuku" refers to the scientist's position as a subordinate, but I don't understand how that would work with the "sasuga...dake (no koto) wa aru" construction. (Does it instead refer to how the scientist "could only be viewed as a step down" or a let down from his predecessor?) I also don't understand how exactly the "nan tsuu" reflects on the sentence - the only sources I can find define the phrase as something like "what the hell", which doesn't really work here.

The reporter is commenting on the brilliance of his interview subject "as one would expect from someone who worked under the 天才科学者".

As for なんつーの, it is a very casual way of saying "How do I put it.../How do I say it...". It is a contraction of なんて言うの.

 

[indigozeal]

That makes sense. Thank you very much.

 

[aardwolf]

Thanks Ashikaga-sensei(for the funny examples ), Elizabeth-sensei!

I was aware of マジ、I guess まぢ is just a variation?
Ａｎｙｗａｙｓ、ありがとう！

 

[Tomii515]

To say like "I feel like blah", how would you say that? Like, "I feel like going to school" or "I feel like eating some sushi". Would you use ～たくなる? Or maybe just ～たい? Like...

学校に行きたくなります。/学校に行きたいです。
すしを食べたくなります。/すしを食べたいです。

...or is there another/more specific way to get across the feeling that you "feel" like doing something?

よろしく☆

 

[Ashikaga]

To say like "I feel like blah", how would you say that? Like, "I feel like going to school" or "I feel like eating some sushi". Would you use ～たくなる? Or maybe just ～たい? Like...
学校に行きたくなります。/学校に行きたいです。
すしを食べたくなります。/すしを食べたいです。
...or is there another/more specific way to get across the feeling that you "feel" like doing something?
よろしく☆

You can just use ～たい. You could also tack on 何だか at the beginning and/or add 気分 at the end. Furthermore, try changing the cadence to たぁ~い / たいなぁ～, etc. to help giving your statements the same nuance as "I feel like...." .

Examples : I feel like some cold beer.
冷たいビールを/が 飲みたいですね。
何だか冷たいビールが飲みたいなぁ。
何だか冷たいビールが飲みたい気分だなぁ～。
冷たいビールが飲みたぁ～い。

I don't feel like going to school today.
今日は学校へ行きたくありません。
今日は学校へ行きたくないなぁ。
今日は何だか学校へ行きたくない。
今日は何だか学校へ行きたくない気分。
今日学校行きたくねぇ～。