Discrimination/racism in Japan vs non-Japan

[centrajapan]

African Americans are over represented in prison cells and have a higher crime rate lower income etc etc. Just because there are signs that says No Blacks does not mean that US does not have any sort of racism. Infact the social injustice in a country like US or Australia is much more severe than Japan.

 

[Astroboy]

I think any word can be made foul, it depends on how you use it. So maybe you don't have exactly foul words, but they can be spoken with a foul mouth and intentions.

I agree with you.
But question is .... WHY language of English or others could have developed "straight dirty words" during their long history of languages, and WHY Japanese language couldn't develop it.

Maybe Japanese are too slow?

 

[Mars Man]

I'm not going to waste any time at all in calling a spade a spade, here. This thread is totally non-functional in nature. What in the world is this 'race' thing anyway? Not a single sentence has been offered to define the term, not a single notion of what is being studied about it has been offered by the OP.

What are the limits of the study field? What is the hypothesis being worked towards? What action can be taken, suggestion be forumlated, and/or benefit be gained in learning that discrimination in any form can overlap with some concept called 'race?' (if, in fact, there is really any such thing.)

I strongly suggest that the OP set functional terms for this thread.

 

[Astroboy]

African Americans are over represented in prison cells and have a higher crime rate lower income etc etc. Just because there are signs that says No Blacks does not mean that US does not have any sort of racism. Infact the social injustice in a country like US or Australia is much more severe than Japan.

I can imagine that. Although I have never experienced racism in overseas, Life in those countries must be tough. Must be very stressful.

Such stressful life in USA and Australia may have made some people very sensitive about racism. If racism is rare or less, people may not be able to think of that.

 

[Chi65]

All I can say, that all of my friends in Japan are obviously not racists, also other skins and cultures were accepted, even invited, also on big festivals, also supported via help and exchange-programs. I happened to be invited to such groups about Africa, for example, and very much enjoyed their multi-cultural meetings and great speeches of the obviously very adored (and brilliant!) Africans, one in Kyoto , one in Matsue, by the way. . .the leaders on all sides were all relatively young and the atmosphere as inspiring, as could be.

There are always these and those, and of course, I have heard about them.

But even in the Netherlands I once had an older man spitting out, when he realised, that there were germans around, be them just friendly young people. . .

 

[MadamePapillon]

I can imagine that. Although I have never experienced racism in overseas, Life in those countries must be tough. Must be very stressful.
Such stressful life in USA and Australia may have made some people very sensitive about racism. If racism is rare or less, people may not be able to think of that.

It's not as bad as you might think. I've heard several times that Japan is more a stressful place to live and work.
Actually, I think all the discussion on racism is giving an over exagerrated view on things. It's talked about a lot but I actually haven't seen a real example of racism here in quite a while.

 

[Astroboy]

I'm not going to waste any time at all in calling a spade a spade, here. This thread is totally non-functional in nature. What in the world is this 'race' thing anyway? Not a single sentence has been offered to define the term, not a single notion of what is being studied about it has been offered by the OP.
What are the limits of the study field? What is the hypothesis being worked towards? What action can be taken, suggestion be forumlated, and/or benefit be gained in learning that discrimination in any form can overlap with some concept called 'race?' (if, in fact, there is really any such thing.)
I strongly suggest that the OP set functional terms for this thread.

Thanks for your advice. I thought it was fairly clear but I hereby state objective of this thread again.

1. Looking into racism/discrimination in comparison to Japan and non-Japan.
2. Gaining an understanding of the background of those racism/discrimination.
3. Determining the solution for better world.

Japan is not perfect country, but personally I believe that Japan is much less rasim/discrimination than others. "Comparison" must help stand out real issue behind the world's racism/discrimination issues.

Fortunately, this is Japan Forum, and thus always Japan is subject. And Japan is unique in terms of racism/discrimnation.

I DO hope this thread will help find out some key solutions for future better world.

FYI. Definition of racism/discrimination:
Discrimination - Wikipedia
Racism - Wikipedia

 

[nice gaijin]

What is the point of trying to compare how much racism there is in Japan versus other places? Are we trying to establish which place is "better"? This seems like an exercise in futility.

 

[Astroboy]

What is the point of trying to compare how much racism there is in Japan versus other places? Are we trying to establish which place is "better"? This seems like an exercise in futility.

..Meaning that racism in Japan/discrimination is useful but comparison is useless? If you are interested in Japan's racsim/discrimination only, please stay in the thread "Racism in Japan/discrimination".

 

[Sensationalist]

Prejudice would be a better definition than the term "racism" because prejudice is something we all can relate to more clearly. Racism is a bit too faulty in reference, I think. Japanese are not intrinsically rascist to the core, they are more like xenophobic and prejudice, like most westerners tend to be.

 

[Mars Man]

In a sense, Astroboy san, you do have the upper hand here, in that this particular thread is not under the more specific Serious Discussions sub-forum. That said, I have almost always and yet intend to encourage careful thought and as full as possible presentation and argumentation in the more 'serious' related topics that folks present. I hope to make it clear that I am only speaking a fellow JREF member here.

Therefore, I will test the fundimentals of your presentation and investigation.

Would you deny, Astroboy, that it is true that to define the term 'racism' we first have to define the concept of the word 'race?'

I think you will find that we can run into problems there. Of course the arguments on this mater have not settled in the certain science fields that are concerned with such, but it is fairly clear enough that we can no longer just say there is this 'race' and then there is that 'race.'

Senationalist san has moved it in the more correct direction here; I will push that a little further. What we are talking about is anthopological in-group bonding conditioning.

I hope to hear answer to the question above.

 

[Astroboy]

Mars Man san

To be honest, I don't understand you well. But I can understand that you must be unhappy about this thread. So, I suggest you to close this thread. As being an ordinary Japanese, I don't want argument.

Thank you very much for your post.

 

[Glenski]

Goldiegirl wrote (about "no foreigners" signs):

It may not be legal, but if those things are allowed and not enforced saying they are illegal really means nothing!

Exactly what I and others have been trying to say for years here in Japan. Why is it that the country signs an international treaty against discrimination, yet does not enact any laws to support that signing? Answer (from the horse's mouth): The laws would be too difficult to enforce. Amazing logic, eh?!

Astroboy restated:

I thought it was fairly clear but I hereby state objective of this thread again.

1. Looking into racism/discrimination in comparison to Japan and non-Japan.
2. Gaining an understanding of the background of those racism/discrimination.
3. Determining the solution for better world.

My reply:
1. Please define more precisely what "looking into" means. Your post is far too general to have any meaning in its replies.
2. Ah, background. Now there's at least something tangible we can all work on. One aspect of Japan's background that leads/led to discrimination is its own isolation for 200-250 years, and its ensuing lack of overt cooperation or involvement in international matters thereafter.
3. Solution? Peace and understanding, of course, but perhaps you were looking more for strategies leading to such...? Much harder to come up with, especially with very stubborn minds in the government holding the reins.
Example:
Koizumi's administration was ready to institute English as a mandatory subject in elementary schools. It was already there in a general form. Enter PM Shinzo Abe, and things go 180 degrees. No compulsory English in el ed. Reason given? The same old song and dance about Japanese being unable to process 2 languages at the same time, that the Japanese culture would suffer, etc. Totally unsupported B.S., of course, but it shows dinosaur thinking springing from fear of what internationalization would really bring to this country.

 

[Mars Man]

I see, Astroboy, language could be a little bit of a problem, and I will take the blame for most of that...my style can be very rigid at times. (like maybe 90% of the time)

The OP, along with just why this thread came into existence speaks for itself. I have no reason nor any present authority to close the thread, but hope to work towards as full and balanced an educational-like discussion of the matter as possible.

The point I have been presently working on, is that there may well be no such thing as a 'race.' If we adhere to that understanding, the word 'racism' has no meaning, and we must find a diferent word. I posit that we should use the word 'out-group differentiation.' Then, we must look into psychological models to attempt to understand the pressures for such.

Those are some very valid points you have raised there Glenski san.

 

[Sensationalist]

??

Koizumi's administration was ready to institute English as a mandatory subject in elementary schools. It was already there in a general form. Enter PM Shinzo Abe, and things go 180 degrees. No compulsory English in el ed. Reason given? The same old song and dance about Japanese being unable to process 2 languages at the same time, that the Japanese culture would suffer, etc. Totally unsupported B.S., of course, but it shows dinosaur thinking springing from fear of what internationalization would really bring to this country.

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all. Let me reiterate, the Japanese do not need English. Schools should offer English as an elective,however, among all of the rest of the Indo-European languages, but it should not be a requirement Glenski.

In U.S. schools and in other western countries, since you like to draw references from internationalization, offer a variety of different languages as an elective, but none offer English as a requirement. Learning English doesn't mean you are any more internaionalized than say if we were forced to learn French or German.

Your other analogy is completely out to lunch. You asserted that Shinzo Abe was outdated in his thinking because he espoused traditional thinking and nationalism in public schools makes no sense whatsoever. This is Japan with 12 million of its inhabitants who arose from the scorge of war only to rebuild itself into a super power. What's wrong with embracing ones own cultural virtue and traditions. I mean, westerners like yourself, embrace western fundamentalism and then you try to shove it down everybody's throat. Maybe what you believe in is unsupported BS...

 

[Mars Man]

I think there may be an angle that you might possibly have missed there, however, Sensationist san.

While it can well be reasoned to be true that Japanese children of that age do not need English (as in being a required subject in the curriculum) there is no gain in offering a defense towards not allowing it to be offered as an elective (school systems tend to follow the leader here) using shown to be false premises.

 

[MadamePapillon]

@ Sensationalist

English has become something of a common international language. It's become a communication tool and many many non-english speaking countries use it to converse with people around the world.

This isn't westernization being shoved down anyones throat, it's common sense. With todays world it's logical there would be one language that would be commonly used in international discussion and affairs rather than everyone having to learn 10 different languages. The language picked just happened to be a western one. English is extremely versatile with a wide range of words and sounds (which makes fairly flexible in regards to differing accents). Plus it gives the speaker the ability to be directly to the point with little room for misinterpretation and with no need for honorifics or social and gender distinctions, so it's a fairly logical choice all things considered.

 

[centrajapan]

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all.

Very true. People dont need English in Japan. Given the fact that you need some place between 6 to 9 years to be able to read news papers it is harder for Japanese to learn English than others not to mention the two languages are completely different. Plus being able to speak English in Japan does not mean much.

As for the defenition racism or not. Anti-Semitism is regarded as racism but Jews are not a race it is a religion. So technically speaking Anti-Semitism is not racism and neither was Hitler but there is a wide spread agreement that Anti-Semetism is racism and Hitler a racist.

Israel is probably the most racist country on this planet. USA is the biggest supporter of the most racist country on this planet so you could say US too is a very racist country for supporting Israeli racism. Or perhas say they are apologetic to Israeli racism.

USA is probably the most nationalistic people on this planet. It seems as if some of them believe they are the only free country on this planet when the fact is they are less free than most other western countries. They have very limited free speech. Its American freedom. Its less free than standard freedom.

In USA the government has gone around the world kidnapping Arabs and put them in detention centers. Kept them there without a charge for years. If that isnt racism then the word has no meaning.

 

[Taiko666]

Japan's condition is unique in the fact that it doesn't need English at all.

You're saying that everybody in the world needs to speak English except the uniquely unique Japanese, which is of course ludicrous. Is this what you meant to say?

I mean, westerners like yourself, embrace western fundamentalism and then you try to shove it down everybody's throat.

Who's shovelling what down whose throats exactly?

Or do you regard campaigning for anti-discrimination laws as 'western fundamentalism' ? Meaning that legalized discrimination is 'fundamentally' a Japanese thing?

All these racism/discrimination threads boil down to the same thing: there are racists everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal. In this instance, Japan really is 'unique.'

 

[centrajapan]

All these racism/discrimination threads all boil down to the same thing: there are racist everywhere in the world, but only in Japan is racism and discrimination entirely legal.

Israel is worse because they confiscate Palestinian land and houses. They kick them out and say. This land is Jewish. I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.

There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.

Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

 

[Astroboy]

I am understanding a little bit about racism/discrimination in Japan. Some points out the following:

I think this must be bad to almost all foreigners.
But I also feel sympathy with those Onsen-owners in Hokkaido . They must be troubled with Big Russian fishermen/used car dealers and Japanese regular customers avoid.

Probably they need to be patient for whatever they like to do.

But is this racism/discrimination? are there any solution?

 

[MadamePapillon]

Two wrongs don't make a right, Centrajapan.

Just because Japan isn't as in-your-face with discrimination as the US or Israel, that still doesn't make the Japanese brand of discrimination any less offensive or wrong.

If Japan was so much better than the rest they would be doing what they could to erase discrimination rather than trying to excuse it by pointing out all the crappy things everyone else is doing.

 

[centrajapan]

Two wrongs does not make a right but it puts things in perspective. THe discrimination in Japan is nothing compared with Israel or USA.

 

[Astroboy]

Israel is worse because they confiscate Palestinian land and houses. They kick them out and say. This land is Jewish. I dont think in Japan they go to your house and kick you out of your house, terar down your house and say. This land is Japanese state property.
There is probably alot more stealth racism in US. Racism in a subtle manner difficult to detect than the overt practices of discrimination that once was dominant in US but still there are signs everywhere in US of the social injustice.
Japanese dont go around kidnapping people like US and North Korea either.

As far as I know, Jewish people are quite loyal to their own origin, identity and religious. And because of such strong identity and they didn't have their home land, they had long been discrimnated in Europe.

From my point of view, Europe are virtually fortunate because NAZI almost perished them and the suvivors left Europe after WWII. Plus Europeans could have affixed all the blames to German, and Europeans push all troubles to Palestines and middle east. Racial troubles in Israel must root in Europe, I think.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I think this must be bad to almost all foreigners.
But I also feel sympathy with those Onsen-owners in Hokkaido. They must be troubled with Big Russian fishermen/used car dealers and Japanese regular customers avoid.


That is very true Astroboy, one must always look at all sides of a situation and why such things happen.
Rascism and discrimination is very ugly, but being a judge is not enough.