Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

[Mars Man]

LOL !! So I had been right all along, then, huh? I mean way back in highschool when thinking over the problems there all the way up to my days at the U of Arizona where, after some time, a ruckus broke out among some students there, even.

My solution was simple. Just put a great, very great big wall around the entire area, letting not a single person out or in, after having let all those who had been willing to renounce the value and precidence of their respective religio-cultural idiosyncracies to that of the concept of one world, one people, out. Then, what transpired within the walled off zone, would be of no matter to the rest of the world.

So...I was correct after all, huh? HUH?

 

[scorpion da black]

yeah you were right mars man sama....as funny as it sounds...and as sad as it sounds.

we are the red indians, and the Israelis are the settlers.....lets see if america will be found or if the Indians will have more power and are more presistant this time!!!!

 

[Mars Man]

...as funny as it sounds...and as sad as it sounds.

Yes, and let's not forget, as natural as it is. All animals of such strict social nature do it. That's just the way it goes !

 

[Haruspex]

Well how to put it, we here can pretty much get along most of the time, but the situation in Israel is way way different, we hold no grudge against each other, the antagonism there is so deep that you can't do a thing about it. Its like putting your hand in the mixer, you pull your hand out, but it already cut off your fingers. Reasoning does not work.
And before you misunderstand me, I wish to say that both Arabs and Jews have right to fight, they do because the land belongs to both of them somehow.

 

[Hezam]

now ...Mars Man sama ...did you realize that they want to close this thread with war ?

they want to finish it by war not by peace !

thanks my friend Mars Man ...

best wishes for you and scorpion da black and centerjapan ^^

 

[centrajapan]

My solution was simple. Just put a great, very great big wall around the entire area, letting not a single person out or in, after having let all those who had been willing to renounce the value and precidence of their respective religio-cultural idiosyncracies to that of the concept of one world, one people, out. Then, what transpired within the walled off zone, would be of no matter to the rest of the world.

Many countries are calling for a boycott of Israel. It is mainlly due to western countries especially USA's support of Israel that Israel can carry on it's crimes. You don't need to build a wall. But boycott Israel. Cut diplomatic ties. US should stop aiding Israel billions of dollars each year. US is a direct sponsor of Israel's occupation. The reason why US is such a strong supporter of Israel is due to the power Zionists have in US. The mdeia is controlled by the Zionists. America's strongest lobby AIPAC is a Zionist organisation.

While it is perfectly fine to be a Zionist if you believe Jews are greater people than the palestinians their goal is not to prmotoe peace but rather to promote Israel's interests.

Israel does not want to give Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians because then Jews will no longer be a majority and Israel stops being Jewish but it also does not want to give freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. This makes Israel a racist apartheid state.

While Palestinians already have agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. Israel does not want to do that either. So what they have done since 1967 is having the Occupied Territories under a brutal millitary occupation. It builds new settlements in West bank. Between Palestinian villages. Or more often than not on the expense of the Palestinian towns and villages. That is how Israel was created in the first place. By destroying over 500 towns and villages. The irony of it all is that they still destroy Palestinain towns and villages. They will only take their land away but leave the people out.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

This is not just about getting along. This is about making Israel stop aggression and respect international law. As I have said earlier. This conflict is easy to solve had Israel listened to all the resolutions and international laws.

 

[Hezam]

Many countries are calling for a boycott of Israel. It is mainlly due to western countries especially USA's support of Israel that Israel can carry on it's crimes. You don't need to build a wall. But boycott Israel. Cut diplomatic ties. US should stop aiding Israel billions of dollars each year. US is a direct sponsor of Israel's occupation. The reason why US is such a strong supporter of Israel is due to the power Zionists have in US. The mdeia is controlled by the Zionists. America's strongest lobby AIPAC is a Zionist organisation.

While it is perfectly fine to be a Zionist if you believe Jews are greater people than the palestinians their goal is not to prmotoe peace but rather to promote Israel's interests.

Israel does not want to give Israeli citizenship to the Palestinians because then Jews will no longer be a majority and Israel stops being Jewish but it also does not want to give freedom to the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem. This makes Israel a racist apartheid state.

While Palestinians already have agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. Israel does not want to do that either. So what they have done since 1967 is having the Occupied Territories under a brutal millitary occupation. It builds new settlements in West bank. Between Palestinian villages. Or more often than not on the expense of the Palestinian towns and villages. That is how Israel was created in the first place. By destroying over 500 towns and villages. The irony of it all is that they still destroy Palestinain towns and villages. They will only take their land away but leave the people out.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

This is not just about getting along. This is about making Israel stop aggression and respect international law. As I have said earlier. This conflict is easy to solve had Israel listened to all the resolutions and international laws.

i am surprized how do you know all that about the middle East while the others do'nt know !!

i am happy to hear that ...i am happy to know that there are somepeople understand

what happens in palestine...

thanks from all my heart dear centerjapan ...

 

[RegDunlap]

How about boycotting Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Syria, and the rest of the kleptocracies that infest the Middle East instead? Boycotting the one country in the area that is a working democracy is stupidity.

The reason there are so many UN resolutions against Israel is that the UN is biased. There are more than 50 muslim countries at the UN, versus a grand total of one Jewish country. It's a simple numbers game.

Tell me Centra, what exactly have the Arabs done for their poor cousins the Palestinians? Have they given them aid? Jobs? Citizenship? A path out of the cycle of despair that they are in?

Or, have the Saudis and others USED the Palestinians as attack dogs... Kept them poor and hungry and angry.

In the aftermath of WW2, millions of people were displaced all over the world. In Europe, in Asia, in the Middle East, etc. Yet all those populations managed to settle into their new areas and make the best of the situation. All with the exception of the Palestinians. Doesnt that make you think a little?

 

[Mars Man]

OK, centrajapan san, on two occasions now you have mimicked my wording when calling for your attention to the finer and deeper points. Now, I will ask you to lay down your hand, and finish the game--since it no longer has any value to me.

Go back and look over what you have said very carefully, throughout your entire line of argumentation here, and then come back and tell me if the following is not at the heart of all that you are espousing. And, may I add, be ready to defend it with the best of logical association that you can muster up if you attempt to deny the following!!

The heart of your message, centrajapan, is that a compromise in the Middle East is not wanted by at least one of the parties involved there, by which fact we can conclude that there is NO middle ground for the Middle East--thread finished.

Carlos Santana san, thank you for your observations. However here too, I wish to put you on the spot. What, may I ask is your desire for the Middle East, and how, may I ask can I interpret that from what you have said over the several threads upon which the subject has come up?

If it is actually a compromise that you wish, instead of forever anger, hatred and fighting, what are you willing to accept as a loss? Can you give equal validity to the Jewish religious belief-system's right to claim the right to not follow the laws of Sharia? (if I have misspelled that, I'm sorry)

 

[scorpion da black]

mars man sama, i think this aught to be a statistic measure...who believes that a compromise is achievable and peace is on the way...
and who believes that blood spilling is the end of the road...

and i will predict that the majority here will choose blood spilling

 

[Haruspex]

Lol okay i've got a dumb solution, they should both enter the EU. (I know thats retarded, its just a joke to make the atmosphere tad bit more comfortable.)

 

[centrajapan]

The heart of your message, centrajapan, is that a compromise in the Middle East is not wanted by at least one of the parties involved there, by which fact we can conclude that there is NO middle ground for the Middle East--thread finished.

I wanted to spread an awareness about Israel´s daily crime and atrocities. However, I think I understand your point.

Mars Man-san. Accepting that there is no middle ground for peace would be to accept the status quo. I find that to be a very passive apathetic stance which I do not agree with. This is what Israeli government and the US government want us to believe. There is no hope for peace while trying to shove the reasosn for instability under the rug. As more people are getting an awareness the tide is starting to turn.

In South Africa movements against apartheid increased. In the end it even mobalised the concervatives in US and Europe.I am not sure when anti apartheid activitism strted. I think maybe in the 50s, 60s? But the apartheid era did not end until the 90s. There are any factors for why it ended. Both international and domestic pressure helped to put an end to apartheid.

Since 1967 as many as one million have left Israel, and the rate of those refusing to serve in the Israeli army is increasing together with Israeli pilots who refuse to bomb the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This occupation is unsustainable and more Israeli civilians are losing faith in militarism.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

There are various Israeli groups working in solidarity with the Palestinians and taking a stance against Israel. That link is one of them. Now if more people in US would get an awareness and put pressure on stopping their country sponsoring the occupation things would improve even more. Just that it was an American. Carter who compared Israel with apartheid is indeed a step in the right direction towards peace.

 

[Hezam]

Carlos Santana san, thank you for your observations. However here too, I wish to put you on the spot. What, may I ask is your desire for the Middle East, and how, may I ask can I interpret that from what you have said over the several threads upon which the subject has come up?

If it is actually a compromise that you wish, instead of forever anger, hatred and fighting, what are you willing to accept as a loss? Can you give equal validity to the Jewish religious belief-system's right to claim the right to not follow the laws of Sharia? (if I have misspelled that, I'm sorry)

I accept the Jewish to live with us but not under Israelian Government

you know there are more than 40.000 Jewish in Yemen ..

they have the right to live wherever but not Killing the Original people ..

If you read our Shareah you will realize the that .........

and thanks my friend Mars Man ^^

 

[centrajapan]

There is an international recognition that racial segregation should not be tolerated and oppression. Therefore it is hard to understand why it is OK for Israel to carry out these practices. I think the best way for compromise is a boycott. This will send a clear message to the people in Israel that they have to choose and that the Israel's governments practice is not acceptable.

Israel and USA's stance is that it is impossible to have peace. So instaed of trying to work towards justice and peace they have become experts in conflict management and security. People who see this conflict as a cycle of violence is looking from a wrong angle. It is about a people who were dispossesed from a land and a people who have been denied self determination and been oppressed ever since.

While it is positive that more and more people are comparing Israel to South Africa, people like Mandela, Tutu. I wonder when Americans will start to do the same. Especially the media and the politicians.

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for your responses, centrajapan san, Carlos Santana san. (and others)

Here is the matter:

First of all, take a good look at the title again-- Is There Middle Ground for the Middle East--what would make a compromise?

We will notice that there are two segements, two concerns which corelate. It would soon become clear enough that the second question would support the first--for by only firstly finding a compromise, could we assert that there would be middle ground.

My hopes for this thread, was to get people to think outside the box--humorously, the sand box...as it seemed to have become.

I wanted to spread an awareness about Israel´s daily crime and atrocities.

Yes, and that is what you had been doing from early on in a number of posts here and there, and that is what kept this thread and another from being able to more fully develope and bloom. Perhaps after you have added another 20 something years to your learning, observations, and experience, you may, possibly, be able to at least see the view point from which I am standing.

Mars Man-san. Accepting that there is no middle ground for peace would be to accept the status quo. I find that to be a very passive apathetic stance which I do not agree with.

Please do pay close attention. It was not I who accepted such, rather, it was I who came to the understanding that if those who are more closely involved wished not to make efforts to consider steps to reach beyond the status quo--the present state--then what degree of productivity would it be to continue offering? (and I don't mean steps directed at the present situation, because it will obviously not work...1948 was a long time ago!)

Since this will likely be my last post on this stranded-in-the-past-to-present-only thead, I will point out what seems most correct to me. No amount of finger pointing, discussing what the state is now, who the land belongs to, what had happened in that area since Homo Erectus, nor who has wronged who will add anything towards reaching any compromise in itself.

Simultaneous education has to be activated equally and freely among all the peoples of the area. ALL other things would have to be put on hold. It would not be overnight at all...in fact, it would probably take many years...but it would have to be the first step because understanding and seeing is a thing of the brain, and the maps of the brain can be fairly changed. That it would take time would be no problem because, all else held constant, we have some 5 billion years left here.

There would then be no nation-state Israel, nor any nation-state Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and so on...up until the very last pre-paradigm shift nation-state on the planet. They would remain as regional overseers and social supervision centers, but have very little sovereign power or authority. There would be only jurisdiction borders as there are between states, prefectures, or districts in most present nation-states.

There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system. All peoples would be socially free to practice and adhere to the belief of their choice free from malice and pressure to do otherwise. Religious belief-system laws would be downgraded to religio-cultural artifacts, thus non-binding to the fullest degree. There would be no religious belief-system law enforcement...no religious police. Women would have equal political, educational, legal, and social rights as men--thus they could drive, date, go out on their own, and dress as they so wished--mostly free from social stigma.

An education program could very possibly accomplish all these, among a number of other things. There would still be some turmoil, there would still be crime, there would still be those who would attempt, at varying degrees of success, to use the system to get ahead, accumulate power and wealth. There would still be those who could love, those who couldn't, and those could forgive, and those who couldn't. We would still be the animal that we are.

In short, the only compromise that will work, is the one wherein all that has been and is, is erased, and from a new slate, a new start is made...a clean cut, a totally new outlook and attitude.

 

[centrajapan]

As heated as this discussion is I do enjoy this pseudo intellectual exchange in opinions and do enjoy to read what you have to say. Now if we can carry on.

Perhaps after you have added another 20 something years to your learning, observations, and experience, you may, possibly, be able to at least see the view point from which I am standing.

Palestinians are not 100% innocent and have made mistakes in the past but if we are to deal with a conflict one must deal with the cause.

There would then be no nation-state Israel, nor any nation-state Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and so on...up until the very last pre-paradigm shift nation-state on the planet. They would remain as regional overseers and social supervision centers, but have very little sovereign power or authority. There would be only jurisdiction borders as there are between states, prefectures, or districts in most present nation-states.

I am sorry I have a hard time following this. Are you saying that if there is going to be peace in the Middle East we need to get rid off nation states? I think it is perfectly possible to have peace in the Middle East without getting rid off nation states but perhaps get rid off Israel's regime. Jews can live there as much as they want and as long as they want as long as they live as civilians and not as ruthless oppressors who unleash mayhem.

There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system. All peoples would be socially free to practice and adhere to the belief of their choice free from malice and pressure to do otherwise.

PLO was a secular movement which built their agenda on Arab nationalism and not Islam. Israel then supported Hamas to weaken PLO. Hamas is an Islamist movement.

This is not only about religion because before the creation of Israel there were Muslims, Christians and Jews living side by side. Rather this is about Zionism. Hamas does not say anything about Jews. Nor did Arafat but Zionism.

An education program could very possibly accomplish all these, among a number of other things. There would still be some turmoil, there would still be crime, there would still be those who would attempt, at varying degrees of success, t

Educating about what? That the land belongs to everyone? This is looking at it from a wrong angle. I am all in favour of education but perhaps an education to the reasons to why Palestine-Israel has been in conflict for 60+ years. Or come with terms that Israel and the Occupied Terriotires is one country and come to accept this fact therefore scrap Israel's racist Zionist laws.

 

[Void]

Simultaneous education has to be activated equally and freely among all the peoples of the area.

Sorry, Mars Man sama but it would be more correct to put it "among all the people of the world", and this thread (with some others here) just proves it.

There would be complete separation of state and religious belief-system.

i thought there won`t be any state

I think it is perfectly possible to have peace in the Middle East. Jews can live there as much as they want and as long as they want as long as they live as civilians and not as ruthless oppressors who unleash mayhem.

naivete

people, i appretiate your ramblings about Israel and Palestine, but Kurds anyone? This nation hasn`t been given any state at the times of cutting an Ottoman pie (though their number was very significant), and they are not going to throw their dream away and peacefully.
Kosovo anyone? and so on...

The borders are inside your minds, and i am afraid, Mars Man sama it might take over dozen of generation to come to a new way of thinking. On the other hand Toffler has a more optimistic way of thinking, and, maybe, he is right about the third wave. Here is a couple of stories for some contemplation (i don`t care if some consider bbc untrustworthy)
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Star-crossed lovers quit West Bank
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israelis from Iraq remember Babylon

 

[scorpion da black]

very true void san.

things are hard to change in the middle east, as if this promised holy land is a cursed one

 

[Mars Man]

Sorry, Mars Man sama but it would be more correct to put it "among all the people of the world", and this thread (with some others here) just proves it.

Ah ha !! Void san ! I could count on you to see to the heart of it, rather than just beynd the nose !! I appreciate your careful meditative analysis of it !!

i thought there won`t be any state

(see above...as you would know, Void, there would be one world government, so...)

Nice job there Void san !!

 

[pugtm]

yeah great put more selfish people in the region and to top it all off make sure they have no stake in it and no connection to it. no understanding of the issues and no prior claim to the land. oh wait a second thats exactly what happened when europe grabbed all of israel and gave half of it away to jordan. never again.

 

[centrajapan]

naivete

people, i appretiate your ramblings about Israel and Palestine, but Kurds anyone? This nation hasn`t been given any state at the times of cutting an Ottoman pie (though their number was very significant), and they are not going to throw their dream away and peacefully.
Kosovo anyone? and so on...

Thank you for your feed back. But I am not quite sure what you mean by Kurds anyone? Kurdistan is a "nation" split into many countries. Kurds are a people. Kurds in Turkey have Turkish passports. Kurds in Iraq have Iraqu passports and so on. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories doe not have Israeli passports.
The reason why I mention the one state solution is because Israel turned down the agreement where Palestine would be able to make a state of 20% of the land. Now what will be more likely is that Israel at the most will only give Palestinians somewhere bwteen 10-15% of the land if even that. In other words a Bantustant.

Assuming that a Bantustant is not accepttable and the ongoing occupation isn't the other alternative would be to have a secular democracy where everyone has equal rights.

I still think a boycott of Israel is the best solution at this current stage. It is positive that there are many academic boycotts of Israel these days. For instanance Israel should not be allowed to play in UEFA matches or any cultural events until they oblige to the UN resolutions and international law.

 

[scorpion da black]

pugtum
it is funny how you blame the europians for giving you a part of palestine rather that all of it....if it wasnt for them you wouldnt have had any part of palestine at all.
we blame them for giving any part of palestine no matter how big or small to you.

israel never existed before 1948 on the corpses of palestinians.....and the europians helped you do that....
we blame them for helping you.....you blame them for not doing so enough...

mainly as mars man san said ....we dont want to argue about history any more...
because we will argue untill forever...

please argue about how we can make a compromise ....a sloution...
if you dont have any answer for that, then stop saying negative commenets....

you want israel a big nation with no arabs...
i want palestine, with no israel and no occupation...

it wont help if we flame each other....it wont solve the problem.
mars man has been trying hard to make a constructive conversation...so why dont you participate in it??

we are able to talk, as you can see in the chit chat forum....we get along well, and laugh about the same stuff...
if every arab and israeli thinks about that may be we can bridge our differences.

 

[centrajapan]

Intifada and the meaning.

quote from here

The first Palestinian intifada (uprising or shaking off) erupted dramatically on 9 December 1987 after twenty long years of brutal Israeli military occupation. The Palestinians had had enough. Not only had they been dispossessed of their homeland and expelled from their homes in 1948 to make way for the boatloads of European Jewish immigrants flooding into Palestine on a promise of a Jewish state, they had been made to suffer the indignities of a people despised and rejected by the whole world. They were the victims of a colonialist project that denied their existence and their rights to self-determination in the land that they had continuously inhabited for millennia so that a state could be created in all of the land exclusively for Jews from anywhere in the world. To this day, the Zionist project has held powerful countries and august institutions hostage in its service, despite the indisputable rulings of international law and United Nations resolutions supporting the rights of the Palestinians. What Israel had not bargained for, though, was the steadfastness of a wronged people and their indomitable spirit that sent the first stones hurtling towards army tanks and bulldozers in their desperate bid to shake off Israel's crushing occupation. So began the "War of the Stones."

Intifada is an Arabic word for shaking off.

 

[Haruspex]

pugtum
it is funny how you blame the europians for giving you a part of palestine rather that all of it....if it wasnt for them you wouldnt have had any part of palestine at all.

Agreed, and as it was stated many times, by many people, life is cruel, Israel was given the chance to come into existence by Lady Luck, but that doesn't mean that Israel is protected by divine powers, and should the tides change, it will be completely normal. It belongs to both nations, the one who can hold it, and the one who can gather more allies under his flag is the one who will control it, currently its the Jews, but Lady Luck is unpredictable, we'll see how the Wheel of Fortune decides.

 

[scorpion da black]

as centrajapan said bro derfel the tides are shaping against israel...
so either we start a solution that would spare life, or have a biblical third world war.