Japanese computers.

[maushan3]

Well, I would like to know how computers in Japan work, if Windows (or Apple) works with Kanji, Roomaji, Kana, Hiragana, or what? Like, could I survive using a Japanese computer in Japan, or would I need to bring a personal keyboard or something. I would like to know from people who have experienced these in real life and that would be you.

Mauricio

 

[GaijinPunch]

All Japanese computers (Windows, Apple, Linux, etc.) can handle all of the Japanese characters, or any Asian ones for that matter. Some are betters than others though.

The keyboards generally have roman characters on them, but quite often the punctuation marks are in different places. The not-so-often used apostrophe, is shift+7, for example. Open quotation mark is shift+2. This can be a hassle. The trick is to tell the system you have a keyboard mapped to that of your home country. So, despite what the keys say (which I never look at anyway) they are mapped "correctly". If you have friends from another foreign country over that look at the keys, they will most likely give up in frustration some few minutes into attempting to use your makeshift setup.

The only operating system that I know of that is multi-lingual friendly is Linux. System languages of Gnome & KDE both should be configurable by user. For Windows, you would have to have two separate Windows installs (a dual boot setup) if you wanted to enjoy a truly multi-lingual system.

 

[Ewok85]

The only operating system that I know of that is multi-lingual friendly is Linux. System languages of Gnome & KDE both should be configurable by user. For Windows, you would have to have two separate Windows installs (a dual boot setup) if you wanted to enjoy a truly multi-lingual system.

A single Windows install can me completely multilingual, but until recently was only available to companies who buy windows in bulk. You can set Windows (and Office) to be completely English, Japanese or whatever language you have licences for from within the control panel, and map it to users. All of the computers in the Tokyo branch of my company are like this with users able to have their interfaces completely in their native language.

The Ultimate version of Vista has this same multilingual ability.

 

[GaijinPunch]

to be completely English, Japanese or whatever language you have licences for from within the control panel,

Okay... should've said with one license. Still a ripoff. You're paying for an entire OS when you're just using the language set. And Microsoft wonders why people either steal their software or use Linux.

The Ultimate version of Vista has this same multilingual ability.

Then you've got a plethora of other issues though.

 

[Ewok85]

Okay... should've said with one license. Still a ripoff. You're paying for an entire OS when you're just using the language set. And Microsoft wonders why people either steal their software or use Linux.

Sorry, the MUI is usually distributed as a set of 4 CD's, with each CD having a "region". Japanese is on the same CD as languages such as Chinese, Thai, Korean, etc, and you can in theory with one licence to the MUI (not individual languages) and install every language possible. Would mess with my head though

But this is only available to corporate customers who buy volume licences, not home users.

Then you've got a plethora of other issues though.

Vista related issues? Sure, but so did XP when it came out. Give it time, Vista will have its chance to shine in a year or two.

 

[Glenski]

For language issues, many people tout the Macintosh over the lowly PC. To each his own. You get used to a keyboard with its minor idiosyncrasies. Bring your own computer if you like (laptop).

 

[GaijinPunch]

Vista related issues? Sure, but so did XP when it came out. Give it time, Vista will have its chance to shine in a year or two.

At it's base, it's Windows. It's not like those issues ever really go away. They just disappear for a while.

But this is only available to corporate customers

Nice that the feature is there (sort of) but seems to illustrate the lack of configuration options found in Windows.

 

[Mechanical_Pencil]

Interesting thread...

I own a Mac laptop for my personal computer and I found that you can toggle the languages of the operating system with a simple click (Japanese gives you the full works-kana, kanji, romaji...very impressive...I bought this computer before I left the States so it still has an American layout, but functions much like a Japanese computer.

I also have a Japanese laptop for work and found that it is still pretty much the same, but as GaijinPunch said, a very very different keyboard layout...I can't tell you how many times it left me scratching my head looking for a key (or how to undo something I just did) instead of working...

So, to answer the question: Buy a Mac (once you go Mac, you never go back). I have been very happy with mine-it's smaller in size, fast, reliable and has many options. If Mac's aren't your cup of tea, it certainly wouldn't hurt to buy a Japanese laptop, but you can also just install Japanese windows on your laptop/PC.

Interesting thread...
I own a Mac laptop for my personal computer and I found that you can toggle the languages of the operating system with a simple click (Japanese gives you the full works-kana, kanji, romaji...very impressive...I bought this computer before I left the States so it still has an American layout, but functions much like a Japanese computer.
I also have a Japanese laptop for work and found that it is still pretty much the same, but as GaijinPunch said, it has a very very different keyboard layout...I can't tell you how many times it left me scratching my head looking for a key (or how to undo something I just did) instead of working...
So, to answer the question: Buy a Mac (once you go Mac, you never go back). I have been very happy with mine-it's smaller in size, fast, reliable and has many options. If Mac's aren't your cup of tea, it certainly wouldn't hurt to buy a Japanese laptop, but you can also just install Japanese windows on your laptop/PC.

 

[Ewok85]

Nice that the feature is there (sort of) but seems to illustrate the lack of configuration options found in Windows.

Alot of work goes into making Windows localised - giving it to normal users would mean that any one copy of Windows would have equal functionality in any language. Thats bad for a number of reasons - you would need at least 6 CD's or several DVD's meaning more cost, more difficulty, and its a licencing hell.

You can't go saying Apple is any better because they do not allow their OS to work on such a wide range of hardware as MS do. You cannot say that any particular flavor of Linux is any better because I have not seen one that has decent multilingual capabilities. While we all say we hate them, MS has a decent product.

At it's base, it's Windows. It's not like those issues ever really go away. They just disappear for a while.

What issues would these be? Could it be the exact same issues that any OS on the market has but since they don't hold anywhere near the same market share are generally ignored?

There is a good reason that almost every large company on this planet uses Windows for their desktops, and Unix for their servers.

 

[GaijinPunch]

Alot of work goes into making Windows localised - giving it to normal users would mean that any one copy of Windows would have equal functionality in any language. Thats bad for a number of reasons - you would need at least 6 CD's or several DVD's meaning more cost, more difficulty, and its a licencing hell.

You only need 6 CDs b/c it's programmed that way. An ideal multi-lingual setup would only require extra space for the text of each language... small, indeed. You could probably fit every other language Windows comes in on another DVD. It is developed around a unilingual base, and that is the problem.

You cannot say that any particular flavor of Linux is any better because I have not seen one that has decent multilingual capabilities. While we all say we hate them, MS has a decent product.

To that I can only answer you have not looked hard enough. Redhat 6 (this is like 4 years ago) out of the box w/ KDE (and I presume Gnome) was multilingual. That is a bit misleading, as w/ Linux it is not the operating system itself, but the window manager. KDE and I'm 99% sure Gnome are completely multilingual (you can choose your system language depending on your login manager). Redhat just saw the use in putting this in the default install. For other distros, you might have to do some tweaking on your own.

What issues would these be? Could it be the exact same issues that any OS on the market has but since they don't hold anywhere near the same market share are generally ignored?

I would say no. Surely nobody is targeted nearly as much as Microsoft, but they are famous for many things: sacrificing security & stability for features is at the top of the list. I don't use Macs, so can't comment, but the open-sourced community for such issues is many fold better.

 

[maushan3]

Alot of work goes into making Windows localised - giving it to normal users would mean that any one copy of Windows would have equal functionality in any language. Thats bad for a number of reasons - you would need at least 6 CD's or several DVD's meaning more cost, more difficulty, and its a licencing hell.

I think I already figured it out -- I'll just buy an American Windows program or something like that, I know it costs a lot, but I got that covered, I think I'll just buy it to a hacker which will cost me no more than 20 USD in Mexico. I know it's piracy, but it's just in case, I mean, I don't want to buy a laptop just for me to take it on exchange. So I think I'll go with that.

Mauricio

 

[Ewok85]

You only need 6 CDs b/c it's programmed that way. An ideal multi-lingual setup would only require extra space for the text of each language... small, indeed. You could probably fit every other language Windows comes in on another DVD. It is developed around a unilingual base, and that is the problem.

So manufacturing costs go up 6-fold, and you have to consider packaging too. Weight might also be importany

To that I can only answer you have not looked hard enough. Redhat 6 (this is like 4 years ago) out of the box w/ KDE (and I presume Gnome) was multilingual. That is a bit misleading, as w/ Linux it is not the operating system itself, but the window manager. KDE and I'm 99% sure Gnome are completely multilingual (you can choose your system language depending on your login manager). Redhat just saw the use in putting this in the default install. For other distros, you might have to do some tweaking on your own.

That is very misleading. Just because a window manager has ability to display certain languages does not mean it is compatible. I gave up on using Japanese as the input methoder was a complete mess.

I would say no. Surely nobody is targeted nearly as much as Microsoft, but they are famous for many things: sacrificing security & stability for features is at the top of the list. I don't use Macs, so can't comment, but the open-sourced community for such issues is many fold better.

Its well documented that while Windows has its flaws, and the only reason that the holes aren't poked in other OS' is because they don't have the coverage to make it worth trying.

 

[GaijinPunch]

So manufacturing costs go up 6-fold, and you have to consider packaging too. Weight might also be important

That's my point. The costs go up 6-fold (that's about $.10 to $.60 in this case) b/c of poor design. A smart design is to have the langauge modular... at worst selectable at install.

That is very misleading. Just because a window manager has ability to display certain languages does not mean it is compatible.

Not in that sense. The system/kernel only handle data. The programs are what allow you to manipulate it and store it. While a very rudamentary approach, that's generally what's going on. The difference is that Windows IS a GUI, for the most part anyway. Very difficult to separate the front end from the back. With Linux, X runs on top of the system. You would rarely, if ever, put X on a server, b/c you most likely won't need it. So in this case, only the Window Manager has to be multi-lingual compatible, as that's the user's interface. You can of course have a non-X machine which is fully capable of handling double-byte character (my xterm runs in utf8) but to me it is not necessary in the least.

I gave up on using Japanese as the input methoder was a complete mess.

Anthy + SKIM is much better than the old IME. I don't quite like it as much as Microsoft's, but it's a close race. The one thing that's definitely better on Windows for the Japanese-conscious person is the J version of Bookshelf. Kiten is the only thing I can think of on Linux and it lacks as a dictionary.

Its well documented that while Windows has its flaws, and the only reason that the holes aren't poked in other OS' is because they don't have the coverage to make it worth trying.

I was pointing out the way they are handled (or in many cases, ignored & denied). I'll never forget that interview w/ Gates where he said 90% of Windows issues were user errors.

 

[ullvarg]

@Ewok85 the only reason windows is so expensive and they wont release it multilingual is that MS is profiteering bastards, join the revolution and try out Ubuntu or suse, open a graffical tool and chose witch language your system should have or select several, so one user use Japanese (my girlfriend) and my login is English with Japanese, Swedish, danish and Norwegians support.
@GaijinPunch For Japanese input uim+anthy works much better than skim/scim, its more of the IME fashion and it doesn't run as a server so its not as memory hogging, but a bit more configuration to begin with though =)
As for something to replace J bookshelf, try out stardict and gjiten, gjiten have gnome dependencies though so you need some extra library's, but its worth it

 

[ET_Fukuoka]

Mac's switch to different languages Pretty Nicely (I am talking about the whole OS, not just text entry). PC's don't do this very nicely. IMHO. I would get one of each. One of the supercheap PC's at the DOS-V shops with Japanese windows installed and a MacBook or something like that. ;-)

Or just get a Mac and run as many versions of Windows you like with Parallels!

 

[mr.sumo.snr]

Converting English Windows XP Professional to any one of about 40 different languages has been relatively straightforward for the last five/six years. Not really sure what all this fuss is about.

The Multi User Interface (MUI) install files are easy to track down.

Yes, other OS may be more multi-language friendly, but I don't really care about those systems because Windows does everything I want of it - and more.

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[Ewok85]

@Ewok85 the only reason windows is so expensive and they wont release it multilingual is that MS is profiteering bastards, join the revolution and try out Ubuntu or suse, open a graffical tool and chose witch language your system should have or select several, so one user use Japanese (my girlfriend) and my login is English with Japanese, Swedish, danish and Norwegians support.

I've used Ubuntu (see http://www.leonjp.com/), Suse, Redhat, Mandrake, etc etc, and none of them are anywhere close to Windows.

I don't see what the big deal about Microsoft trying to make money from their products as being bad - as you said, there are free options available.

 

[Ewok85]

The Multi User Interface (MUI) install files are easy to track down.

If you want to talk about illegally obtaining it - yes, I'm sure its easy enough...

 

[kala83]

I'm really glad someone made a post about this...cuz I kind of had a Japanese computer related question myself.
When I do move to Japan for my job, I would like to get a Japanese Computer just so that I can use something that will be able to work with Characters a little easier. lol and probably by that time I will want to look at getting a new computer anyway. But I was wondering do the Japanese have any typing programs that teach you how to type with Japanese characters on your computer?
What I am referring to is the basic typing knowledge like home keys and shift combinations that help you type with the characters. I am fairly sure they have to do stuff like this. Since there are soo many characters, I would figure there would have to be certain techniques to type the correct way.
Sorry if this seems like an odd or stupid question just was curious for future reference.

 

[ET_Fukuoka]

There are typing figthing games that are pretty cool if that's what you are looking for. The faster you can type the less you get your butt kicked.

 

[GaijinPunch]

@GaijinPunch For Japanese input uim+anthy works much better than skim/scim, its more of the IME fashion and it doesn't run as a server so its not as memory hogging,

I believe that's what I'm using. I have the following installed:
scim-uim, uim, anthy, scim-anthy, and skim-scim-anthy.
I followed this guide. The only problem I have (which I just realized) is that KDE applications can only handle so much kana before they bring the application to a grinding hault. GTK are fine. I use 4-5 tabs in a GAIM window daily for work, with no problem. In Skype, I got about 3 minutes into a conversation and had to stop. Gotta look into that, as I use Kate to do some occasional text editing.

As for something to replace J bookshelf, try out stardict and gjiten, gjiten have gnome dependencies though so you need some extra library's, but its worth it

I will check into these. Thanks.

Suse, Redhat, Mandrake, etc etc, and none of them are anywhere close to Windows.

In what way? I would rate Office as better than Open Office, and of course playing online poker isn't going to happen on Linux (natively). From a support perspective (which is what I believe you do) I can't imagine why people don't go on a rampage. Remote support of Windows generally consists of two methods:
1: Phone support (no thanks)
2: VNC or some other painfully slow method

That's not even touching on the stability issue. We have an old Redhat server about to hit uptime day #1000.

 

[mr.sumo.snr]

I'm really glad someone made a post about this...cuz I kind of had a Japanese computer related question myself.
When I do move to Japan for my job, I would like to get a Japanese Computer just so that I can use something that will be able to work with Characters a little easier. lol and probably by that time I will want to look at getting a new computer anyway. But I was wondering do the Japanese have any typing programs that teach you how to type with Japanese characters on your computer?
What I am referring to is the basic typing knowledge like home keys and shift combinations that help you type with the characters. I am fairly sure they have to do stuff like this. Since there are soo many characters, I would figure there would have to be certain techniques to type the correct way.
Sorry if this seems like an odd or stupid question just was curious for future reference.

Yeah, erm, everyone I know types Japanese using Romaji input. It's very simple. Very few Japanese computer users bother with the kana keyboard.

There's absolutely no reason for you bother with a Japanese-language computer unless you'll be working in an office using Japanese software on Japanese-only PCs.

It's a piece of cake to take any Japanese computer, install English Windows XP, use the existing Japanese Windows drivers to correctly configure the machine, strip the Japanese installation (in fact save it to DVD for potential future re-installation). I've been doing this for years.

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[GaijinPunch]

Note: Laptops can be tricky at times. Often the drivers are not found in an opposing languages Windows install, and you have to install them manually. That's not hard, but finding them sometimes can be.

 

[mr.sumo.snr]

I found a fairly foolproof method for Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu and NEC laptops (and indeed desktops sometimes). The important thing is to keep or have available for re-installation the full Japanese system. In most cases these Japanese companies provide system recovery disks. Sometimes they can be accessed to extract necessary drivers - sometimes they can't and a full system re-install is required.

Since I make a small living out of doing these English re-installs I'm not going to go into too much detail (though I will if anyone PMs me). But anyway I must be up to about 50 successful Sony installations, same for Toshiba. Double digits for NEC and Fujitsu. DELL of course is the dream ticket. Probably knocking on about 500 English installations because everything you need is at the DELL home page.

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[ET_Fukuoka]

I think I have converted about 100 PC's myself. It's not rocket science!! I still say get a Mac! ;-)