Question What does this mean in this context? 1/「……まったく。今さら、どのお顔を下げていらしたのかしら」And 2/ 二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か

zeroh4nter

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Context: Main character is serving in the Anti 董卓 Alliance army (which combined many different armies of powerful clan leaders), its leaders are 袁紹 and 袁術 of a very wealthy 袁family/clan. One day after the Alliance had captured the Imperial capital Luoyang. a general 黄祖 came to the capital and talking with the 2 leaders of the Alliance.
I only know so far a little about this 黄祖 general, that previously while the Alliance army are attacking the Imperial capital, this 黄祖 general just order troops to surround an enemy's castle far away, and not participate with the Alliance army in their battle to take the Imperial capital Luoyang.

(*Characters note: 孫策 and 陳珪 are main character's allies, they're generals from different provinces in the Alliance.)

袁紹「……まったく。今さら、どのお顔を下げていらしたのかしら」
そんな袁紹が珍しく禁城の外に出てきたのは、孫策たちが揚州に帰ってしばらく経った、ある日のことだった。
黄祖「こちらも陽動をしてやったのだ。事の顛末を見届けるくらい、構わんだろう?」
袁術「誰も頼んでなどおらぬ。どうせ、妾たちが片付けた後の腐肉漁りにでも来たのじゃろう」
黄祖「やれやれ。嫌われたものだ」
一刀(……あの人、誰?)
陳珪(……黄祖殿ね。荊州の劉表殿の麾下と聞いているわよ)
劉表の所の黄祖っていうと……ああ、二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か。
黄祖「とはいえ、漁る腐肉もないようでは、来た意味もなかったようだがな」
袁紹「……ええ。あなたに差し上げる手柄なんか、もうどこにも残ってはいませんわよ。さっさとお帰りなさい。しっしっ」
 
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Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

原文:……まったく。今さら、どのお顔を下げていらしたのかしら
標準:……やれやれ。今さら、どの面下げてこの場に来たのやら

("面" means face, and "お顔" is a polite way of saying "面".)

Oh dear..., What brought you here, a woman who has lost face?


黄祖 failed to win the battle. 袁紹 mocks the disgrace.

This sentence "どの面下げて" is very important because it is a valuable insulting word in the Japanese language, where the vocabulary for insults is limited.

I've heard that English has a wide range of insulting vocabulary, so I'm not sure if this translation is correct. If there is a better word please let me know.

And please remember this Japanese phrase. In anime and manga, this expression is a common insult.

For example, anyone who returns after failing a mission is always insulted in this way.

どの面下げて戻ってきた! (Dono Tsura Sagete Modottekita!)
How dare you come back!

"どの面" is "what kind of face", "下げて" is "have/carry" in literal translation. And "どの面下げて" means "Situations where it is embarrassing to meet face to face".

Losing face is a great shame for the Japanese. And to criticize someone for losing face is the greatest insult.


原文:劉表の所の黄祖っていうと……

I think, 黄祖, who is 劉表's subordinate, is ...


原文:ああ、二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か。

Ah! she is the person who was wasting time at the castle two positions ahead.


NANGI
 
Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

原文:……まったく。今さら、どのお顔を下げていらしたのかしら
標準:……やれやれ。今さら、どの面下げてこの場に来たのやら

("面" means face, and "お顔" is a polite way of saying "面".)

Oh dear..., What brought you here, a woman who has lost face?


黄祖 failed to win the battle. 袁紹 mocks the disgrace.

This sentence "どの面下げて" is very important because it is a valuable insulting word in the Japanese language, where the vocabulary for insults is limited.

I've heard that English has a wide range of insulting vocabulary, so I'm not sure if this translation is correct. If there is a better word please let me know.

And please remember this Japanese phrase. In anime and manga, this expression is a common insult.

For example, anyone who returns after failing a mission is always insulted in this way.

どの面下げて戻ってきた! (Dono Tsura Sagete Modottekita!)
How dare you come back!

"どの面" is "what kind of face", "下げて" is "have/carry" in literal translation. And "どの面下げて" means "Situations where it is embarrassing to meet face to face".

Losing face is a great shame for the Japanese. And to criticize someone for losing face is the greatest insult.


原文:劉表の所の黄祖っていうと……

I think, 黄祖, who is 劉表's subordinate, is ...


原文:ああ、二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か。

Ah! she is the person who was wasting time at the castle two positions ahead.


NANGI
Another person on internet told me his answer, since i'm not native speaker please verify his interpretation

I think its safe to consider どのお顔を下げて a variation of どの面下げて so more of like "you had the nerve to (do whatever they did) after all this time?" or something.

To be honest I'm still a little fuzzy on the plot here, but I think you understand the 2nd one for the most part. Based on what you said most likely its "2 fortresses out" from the imperial capital, rather than 2 stops away from wherever the MC is though. edit: as in like, normally to take a capital you work your way in taking fortresses along the way, she was stalling for time at the castle two "stops" away from reaching the capital.
 
Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

"you had the nerve to (do whatever they did) after all this time?"
If you can understand the story from that translation, there's no problem.

And I don't know the details of the story. Therefore, I don't know the exact location of the castle.
I am just translating short Japanese sentences, so please make any necessary corrections to fit the story.

NANGI
 
Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

"you had the nerve to (do whatever they did) after all this time?"
If you can understand the story from that translation, there's no problem.

And I don't know the details of the story. Therefore, I don't know the exact location of the castle.
I am just translating short Japanese sentences, so please make any necessary corrections to fit the story.

NANGI
So this general is at the 2nd castle away from the capital ? 二つ手前の城
Or this general is at the 3rd castle from the capital ? I'm confused at this part hope you can share your explanation about this part (the author didn't mention about the precise location of this general at that time)
 
I kinda read that line from 袁紹 as a "You've got some nerve showing your face here now" but with that aristocratic sass she's famous for. It's not pure anger, it's more like high-society shade polite words with a knife underneath.

And that "二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か" hits almost like an inner eye-roll. The speaker's basically going, "Oh, that guy the one pretending to 'hold the line' while everyone else actually fought." It's subtle mockery, not just identification.
 
Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

the next castle from the capital:次の城 or 一つ手前の城
the 2nd castle from the capital:二つ先の城 or 二つ手前の城
the 3rd castle from the capital:三つ先の城 or 三つ手前の城

I don't know which is better "the 2nd castle away from the capital" or "the 2nd castle from the capital".

Or "the 2nd backward castle from the capital" is more literal translation?


And I translated it as "from the capital," but I'm not confident about this translation.

Because the original text does not mention where is the original location(or starting point).

Is it really correct to say it is from the capital?

NANGI
 
Konnichiwa zeroh4nter-san!

the next castle from the capital:次の城 or 一つ手前の城
the 2nd castle from the capital:二つ先の城 or 二つ手前の城
the 3rd castle from the capital:三つ先の城 or 三つ手前の城

I don't know which is better "the 2nd castle away from the capital" or "the 2nd castle from the capital".

Or "the 2nd backward castle from the capital" is more literal translation?


And I translated it as "from the capital," but I'm not confident about this translation.

Because the original text does not mention where is the original location(or starting point).

Is it really correct to say it is from the capital?

NANGI
i think the way you explain is clear. The general at that time is at a battle location (against the enemy's castle/ check point) ,and the distance of this general at that time is 2 castle/ check points before she can reach the capital.
I think the author didn't pay attention to historical facts or anything specifics, he just write like you explained above "the 2nd castle from the capital:二つ先の城 or 二つ手前の城"
So "二つ手前の城でずっと時間稼ぎしてた人か" = "Ahh now i remember, she is the general who only stalling for time 2 castles away from here (the capital where the main character is standing )"
Which means at that time while main character and his allies were attacking the capital, this general was at the 3rd castle (i think so based on your explanation)- Feel free to correct since i'm not native
(P/s: i also found this answer on internet, which explain 二つ手前 part)
 
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