Legal Japan passes law to promote understanding of the LGBT community

[thomas]

On Friday, the House of Councillors passed a law promoting understanding of the LGBTQ community and their concerns. The media unanimously described the new bill as "watered down". Some conservative lawmakers said the measure was "too permissive."

Japan, the only Group of Seven (G7) nation that does not have legal protection for same-sex unions, had initially pledged to pass the law before hosting a G7 summit last month. However, wrangling over the bill meant it was only submitted to parliament for consideration on 18 May, the day before the summit began. The initial draft stipulated that discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity should "not be tolerated" but was changed to "there should be no unfair discrimination," which critics say may tacitly encourage some forms of discrimination. Despite the bill being watered down, some members of PM Kishida's ruling Liberal Democratic Party still broke ranks with party directives, boycotting or walking out of Tuesday's vote in the lower house and the final say in the upper house.

Japan enacts watered-down LGBT understanding law | The Asahi Shimbun: Breaking News, Japan News and Analysis

Meanwhile, the Chinese consul general in Osaka Xue Jian said, "Tampering with gender is a deformity, not the evolution of human civilisation".

Xue tweeted in Japanese on Wednesday, "I don't mean to discriminate against sexual minorities, but tampering with gender is a deformity, not the evolution of human civilisation." The consul general also said, "the absolute minority is effectively forcing us – the absolute majority" and claimed it goes against the basics of majority-rules democracy that the West has long advocated.

Chinese diplomat causes stir in Japan after calling trans people ‘deformed’

Chinese consul general in Osaka Xue Jian said ‘tampering with gender is a deformity, not the evolution of human civilisation’.

www.scmp.com

 

[Master of Time]

Since the G countries tossed out Russia for daring to behave in any way like America, now they get to say that Japan is the only one not on board the LGBTQ bandwagon. How convenient.

Cause you know, the G countries are always right and truly understand progress....this band of IMF advanced economies hold half the world's wealth...and as we all know progress is all about amassing gold first and foremost...cause what could possibly go wrong with all those cars, factories, plastics, strip mines, greed, and burning everything in sight?

We are talking about some of the most miserable countries on Earth, where despite all time lows in human happiness, they keep insisting they can't be all that depressed. After all, they have all that wealth amassed!

We are on the verge of nuclear war. We have never been this close. And I swear, the last thing I am going to hear before I die is going to be some more screaming about how LGBTQ need more rights.

Well I myself used to be for LGBTQ. But that's all done now. For one thing, its just not that important in the grand scheme of things. For another, victory never seems to be enough to get this minority's bellyaching out of the news cycle.

And what we need now are new laws barring "discrimination"? Whatever that means. However that is going to be carried out. How is anyone going to know if I didn't hire that trans-woman because her appearance scares the hell out of my customers, because he/she smells like a trash bin, or because he/she just can't do the work competently? Has the mind reading device been perfected already and I didn't notice?

Oh, I am still for gay civil unions with full rights such as hospital visitation, insurance beneficiary benefits and whatnot. I am still for bodily autonomy to the point that those wanting hormone treatment and gender surgeries can get them if they want.

But laws attempting to mind read a person's discrimination is by far a bridge too far, not just because mind reading doesn't work, but any attempt to have priorities puts this way, WAAAY down on the list of things we need to worry about right now.

 

[mdchachi]

And what we need now are new laws barring "discrimination"? Whatever that means. However that is going to be carried out. How is anyone going to know if I didn't hire that trans-woman because her appearance scares the hell out of my customers, because he/she smells like a trash bin, or because he/she just can't do the work competently? Has the mind reading device been perfected already and I didn't notice?

Oh, I am still for gay civil unions with full rights such as hospital visitation, insurance beneficiary benefits and whatnot. I am still for bodily autonomy to the point that those wanting hormone treatment and gender surgeries can get them if they want.

But laws attempting to mind read a person's discrimination is by far a bridge too far, not just because mind reading doesn't work, but any attempt to have priorities puts this way, WAAAY down on the list of things we need to worry about right now.

It's not mind reading, it's evidence. Same as for any other protected class of discrimination such as race or gender. Proving it is difficult but but if the class isn't protected you can't even try. Typically only the most egregious cases with strong evidence get successfully prosecuted. Getting prosecuted by "mind reading" is unlikely at best.
As for it being down on the list of priorities that's easy for you to say if you're not a member of the community in jeopardy.

 

[Master of Time]

It's not mind reading, it's evidence. Same as for any other protected class of discrimination such as race or gender. Proving it is difficult but but if the class isn't protected you can't even try. Typically only the most egregious cases with strong evidence get successfully prosecuted. Getting prosecuted by "mind reading" is unlikely at best.
As for it being down on the list of priorities that's easy for you to say if you're not a member of the community in jeopardy.

Could you give me a clear case or two of this "jeopardy" please?

 

[mdchachi]

Could you give me a clear case or two of this "jeopardy" please?

I don't recall many cases of people getting murdered for being heterosexual have you?
Here's a clear case in case you somehow can't recall any.

Matthew Shepard: The murder that changed America

The death of a gay student, tortured and tied to a prairie fence two decades ago, shocked the world.

www.bbc.com

 

[Master of Time]

I don't recall many cases of people getting murdered for being heterosexual have you?
Here's a clear case in case you somehow can't recall any.

Matthew Shepard: The murder that changed America

The death of a gay student, tortured and tied to a prairie fence two decades ago, shocked the world.

www.bbc.com

A fine case of human delusion and victim mentality you have found there. A couple of meth users rob and beat another meth user and its just got to be cause of sexual orientation....rather than money or his drug stash.

Its impossible to be 100 percent sure of motives in the best of cases, but that one is a complete mess......so whatever bias a person wants to employ is easy.

The killers are consistent about saying it was a robbery gone haywire. In typical fashion, the victim's gayness was just used to lure him....a tool...not a motive. It seems they did attempt to use the "gay panic defense" in court Naturally people will stick with that because its what they want to see.

It seems one of the killers, McKinney, was gay or bi-sexual, according one Tom O'Connor who knows him.

People just let their bias be their guide and decide things were whatever suits their fancy. That a hate crime law is stupidly based on this case is no surprise to me. This is one of the reasons I hate humanity.....they are so damned random, presumptive and careless. There are many examples of extreme action taken over what is not even a good guess.

This reminds me of the case from yesterday where the sleeping gaijin chef has a knife and it leads to mass panic. Humanity is a pulsating mass of presumption and stupidity, seeing what they want to see, outrageously delusional, hating of facts and simple truths, intellectually lazy, etc. etc.

New Details Emerge in Matthew Shepard Murder

abcnews.go.com

So anyway, who kills gay guys? Well mostly its gay guys. Just like its mostly White guys that kill White guys and Black guys that kill Black guys and I suppose hetero guys that kill hetero guys.....just like most murders are in the family and not strangers. But "stranger danger" is more appealing to human delusion so that myth just rolls on and on. Same with this myth that gays are in terrible danger from heteros.

Most of these gay/bi killers in the following link were targetting other gay/bi men. No surprise. If anything, it was "awareness" that got men dead. Looks like Grindr came in handy more than once. KGOV's List of Gay Mass Murderers | KGOV.com

 

[Master of Time]

Another problem I have with this it that, while I get the strength in numbers angle, lumping homosexuals in with transgenders and other groups seems to me over-simplify and trivialize their individual issues.

Now its not enough to accept and "understand" homosexuals, now everyone is being forced to accept and "understand" many other groups too, and it seems to me to be too much too soon for most people, and that is not even getting into the important differences between the groups.

Just the story of how we arrived at the current narrative on transgenderism is horrifying subject of its own. If you don't know who John Money is, you should. Things like this are why so many people are taking issue with trans ideology...its not just Bible thumping.

 

[mdchachi]

So anyway, who kills gay guys? Well mostly its gay guys. Just like its mostly White guys that kill White guys and Black guys that kill Black guys and I suppose hetero guys that kill hetero guys.....just like most murders are in the family and not strangers. But "stranger danger" is more appealing to human delusion so that myth just rolls on and on. Same with this myth that gays are in terrible danger from heteros.

Even if the actual motives in this case were not based on sexual identity that doesn't change the result that a whole class of individuals were threatened by the narrative surrounding the case. And, as you said, the perpetrators' own defense was based on otherizing the gay community.

Now its not enough to accept and "understand" homosexuals, now everyone is being forced to accept and "understand" many other groups too, and it seems to me to be too much too soon for most people, and that is not even getting into the important differences between the groups.

You don't have to accept or understand anybody. Just leave them the f**k alone.

Just the story of how we arrived at the current narrative on transgenderism is horrifying subject of its own. If you don't know who John Money is, you should. Things like this are why so many people are taking issue with trans ideology...its not just Bible thumping.

That story supports transgenderism completely. The guy tried to change a person's nature and found it wasn't possible. It's like those programs that try to "cure" people of gayness.

What's the problem with leaving people alone and supporting them as best as you can? By "support" I mean accepting them as fellow humans and not ostracize them, etc.

 

[nice gaijin]

New data: LGBT people across all demographics are at heightened risk of violent victimization

A new report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics highlights just how common violent victimization is among women, LGB people, and trans people.

www.prisonpolicy.org

LGBT people nearly four times more likely than non-LGBT people to be victims of violent crime

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

Study finds LGBTQ people much likelier to be crime victims

The study also found that sexual and gender minorities are burglarized at twice the rate of other households, and that they're more likely to be victims of other types of property theft.

www.pbs.org

Violent Victimization by Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, 2017–2020

bjs.ojp.gov

History of violence against LGBTQ people in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The story of David Reimer reinforces the understanding of gender as a matter of an innate expression of one's identity, and shows that despite all the fears that people have about gay or transgender people, you can't force a gender or sexual identity on anyone. That goes both ways: you can't force someone to be transgender any more than you can force a trans individual to be cis. John Money was dead wrong and I haven't seen anyone holding him up as a credible figure.

 

[Master of Time]

Even if the actual motives in this case were not based on sexual identity that doesn't change the result that a whole class of individuals were threatened by the narrative surrounding the case.

Anybody can feel threatened by anything. This is just another fine example of the human delusion I keep complaining about.

And, as you said, the perpetrators own defense.

People lie in court. Who doesn't know that? You have to wait for the verdict.

You don't have to accept or understand anybody. Just leave them the f**k alone.

This isn't the "Leave them the f**k alone" law. The law is literally named "promote understanding".

I am all for leaving people the f**k alone. The trouble is its gotta work both ways. This laws isn't doing that.

That story supports transgenderism completely. The guy tried to change a person's nature and found it wasn't possible. It's like those programs that try to "cure" people of gayness.

That story supports nothing at all. It is about a single boy whose penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision and his utterly ordinary parents tried to raise him as a girl with the assistance of a grossly overconfident egghead who had little qualms with human experimentation. I am certainly not a proponent of trying to "change" anyone, but I do believe development plays a strong roll in sexual orientation but probably not gender identity. That you casually mix the two disturbs me.

Anyway you need dozens of people to conduct useful research. One in no way cuts the mustard in any way at all.

What's the problem with leaving people alone and supporting them as best as you can? By "support" I mean accepting them as fellow humans and not ostracize them, etc.

A major problem is that everyone truly leaving everyone else alone means sex is reduced to masturbation. You can't tell me that gay and trans people are NOT crushing on and approaching straight people who are deeply disgusted by the thought of that sort of sex. But since they are and do, straight people are going to consider that it could happen to them and that will predicate a reaction if it does.

See a huge problem is that its great to want to promote understanding and tolerance, but there has to be a structure created for this, not just a hopefulness that a structure will form. So how can gay and trans people be sure not approach those who are not interested in sex with them? Well, there are bars and websites specifically for that. Of course that isn't enough, but you get the picture.

As for myself, I would not be half as weirded out by being appoached by a gay guy as I would have been in the past. I was much more insecure long ago and it had NOTHING to do with understanding. It was because of my lack of sexual experience. I wanted women. And I certainly did NOT want anyone thinking I was gay since they never saw me with a woman but now this gay guy is showing interest.....and yeah...that actually happened. I was having a hard enough time and now this f**ker is making people wonder if I am actually gay and if that is my problem. Damn that pissed me off. Why couldn't he leave me the f**k alone?

 

[Master of Time]

The story of David Reimer reinforces the understanding of gender as a matter of an innate expression of one's identity, and shows that despite all the fears that people have about gay or transgender people, you can't force a gender or sexual identity on anyone. That goes both ways: you can't force someone to be transgender any more than you can force a trans individual to be cis.

As I just explained above that episode proves absolutely nothing scientific. I think it is probably true that psychological gender cannot be changed, but I would not point to John Money as evidence of that ever.

I haven't seen anyone holding him up as a credible figure.

Again with you focusing on people rather than facts. John Money's fingers are all over the state of current beliefs about all these issues from those most invested in them. The man literally coined the terms sexual orientation, gender identity and gender role. I don't think I have a problem with the terms but it just goes to show the depth of his influence. Anyway the Reimer case shows either how much he was willing to lie or how deeply convinced of his correctness despite evidence to the contrary. Who knows which? I won't completely write off everything he wrote and said, cause like I say, what really matters are facts, but geez, its not enough to simply fail to hold him up, but he must be repudiated in this particular horrific debacle along with the debacle itself and I see that you aren't.

Next, your links. The gist of your links seems to be "violent victimization" of the LGBT+ community. The trouble? For one that the defintion includes self reported empty claims of having been threatened. Since they include that, YEAH, sexual minorities can appear have such a drastic number as 4 times more likely to be victimized! Besides which, being a sexual minority is going to mean the majority are going to insulating themselves from advances and potential advances from them at an increased rate. I don't know the exact ratio everywhere but in Canada its like 4 percent, so yeah, the 96 percent of people not LGBT are not going to be cool with their advances.

Meanwhile we have much more stark and honest statistics beign complete ignored. Lets look t at straight up murder rather than some vague self reported threats. Men are FAR more likely to be murdered than women, but in the same vein of propaganda we are told that violence against women is rising and yada yada yada while no one is talking about how men are murdered FAR more. Its disgusting.

More men are killed than women, so why focus on violence against women? - National | Globalnews.ca

“It’s not a competition – it’s about prevention," says director of the Canadian Femicide Observatory.

globalnews.ca

Also, I have to point out the information in your links is not from Japan and should not be believed to be equivalent in Japan.

And also, your third link mentions something I pointed out earlier....that people tend to be victimized more by those closest to them....in fact...their own kind. So what do we need to do? Get LGBT+ people to be more kind and considerate to LGBT+ people???

Man, we are on the edge of nuclear war and I still can't believe people seriously invest in topics like this at such a time, especially the damned governments.

 

[mdchachi]

People lie in court. Who doesn't know that? You have to wait for the verdict.

My point was even if they lied in court -- and I can believe that -- they chose the path that victimized the queer community.
Somehow they felt that being freaked out by gay people would be a valid defenese.

I am all for leaving people the f**k alone. The trouble is its gotta work both ways. This laws isn't doing that.

You're saying that the various hate crime laws are sweeping up innocent people somehow?

That story supports nothing at all. It is about a single boy whose penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision and his utterly ordinary parents tried to raise him as a girl with the assistance of a grossly overconfident egghead who had little qualms with human experimentation. I am certainly not a proponent of trying to "change" anyone, but I do believe development plays a strong roll in sexual orientation but probably not gender identity. That you casually mix the two disturbs me.

You're easily disturbed.

Anyway you need dozens of people to conduct useful research. One in no way cuts the mustard in any way at all.

You're the one that posted this story about one person. I don't know how you felt it was relevant.

A major problem is that everyone truly leaving everyone else alone means sex is reduced to masturbation. You can't tell me that gay and trans people are NOT crushing on and approaching straight people who are deeply disgusted by the thought of that sort of sex. But since they are and do, straight people are going to consider that it could happen to them and that will predicate a reaction if it does.

This is a tangent and not even tangentially related. Protected class or not, deep disgust or not, violently attacking people is not ok.
I'm sure it's true that some people who truly weren't targeting based on race or sexual orientation got enhanced hate-crime penalties that probably weren't warranted.
So what? Is this a big problem?

See a huge problem is that its great to want to promote understanding and tolerance, but there has to be a structure created for this, not just a hopefulness that a structure will form. So how can gay and trans people be sure not approach those who are not interested in sex with them? Well, there are bars and websites specifically for that. Of course that isn't enough, but you get the picture.

Completely nonsensical. The structure is society. Make it unacceptable to violently attack somebody.
Same as if somebody approaches a woman at a club who has a boyfriend, it should not be acceptable to attack them.

As for myself, I would not be half as weirded out by being appoached by a gay guy as I would have been in the past. I was much more insecure long ago and it had NOTHING to do with understanding. It was because of my lack of sexual experience. I wanted women. And I certainly did NOT want anyone thinking I was gay since they never saw me with a woman but now this gay guy is showing interest.....and yeah...that actually happened. I was having a hard enough time and now this f**ker is making people wonder if I am actually gay and if that is my problem. Damn that pissed me off. Why couldn't he leave me the f**k alone?

We were all young and dumb and insecure once upon a time. If you had grown up where queerness was normalized you'd have felt less stigma and insecurity when shown interest from the same sex. It may be a long time or never for this kind of social environment to be realized but in the meantime we can make it socially and legally unacceptable to make people into outcasts for being LGBTQQIP2SAA.

 

[mdchachi]

The man literally coined the terms sexual orientation, gender identity and gender role.

You're wrong about one of them.

Meanwhile we have much more stark and honest statistics beign complete ignored. Lets look t at straight up murder rather than some vague self reported threats. Men are FAR more likely to be murdered than women, but in the same vein of propaganda we are told that violence against women is rising and yada yada yada while no one is talking about how men are murdered FAR more. Its disgusting.

As you stated before, when members of the same class are murdering each other it's treated differently. And it's not the same thing as the motives are often different.

Man, we are on the edge of nuclear war and I still can't believe people seriously invest in topics like this at such a time, especially the damned governments.

You seem to be spending a lot of time on it.

 

[Master of Time]

You seem to be spending a lot of time on it.

Are you the same moderator that jumped my S**T my first post here for not being directly Japan related? (checks notes) Yeah, you are the same one.

And being a moderator I am sure you are aware that I recently made a post about censorship that did not make the cut for being Japan related enough...and I guess popular enough...and so was censored.

So uh....I should try my luck with nuclear war now?

Well its not just that. To even get in that door I first have to convince a bunch of people that the MSM is (and it is) lying from every orifice it has about the war, and I had been on that near daily since the 2022 invasion on Reddit up until the black out, fighting troll after troll and people who honestly think they are too important for the media to ever lie to them.

And what will be my reward here? If not censored again maybe I will get more accusations of being a Russian spy or having a crush on Putin? Or maybe just hating America/the West because its "less than perfect"...and never mind facts like America having the largest prison population in human history, CIA black sites, droning children to death, or refusing to send war criminals to the ICJ.

Seriously. I know what it takes to get people to talking as if they smartened up, though they rarely ever do. And what it takes is popularity, which I have no desire to have or ability to gain. (clever rhymes also help. :eyeroll ) But soon as people start down that path they start losing sight of what is important and the nonsense starts to take over.

So what real choice do I have? Prayer. That's all I got. Hopefully I won't die in a flash or slowly rotting to death from unraveled DNA, but if I do, at least it will be doing what I love; getting to the heart of matters....even this gender crappola.

 

[mdchachi]

Are you the same moderator that jumped my S**T my first post here for not being directly Japan related? (checks notes) Yeah, you are the same one.

And being a moderator I am sure you are aware that I recently made a post about censorship that did not make the cut for being Japan related enough...and I guess popular enough...and so was censored.

So uh....I should try my luck with nuclear war now?

Well its not just that. To even get in that door I first have to convince a bunch of people that the MSM is (and it is) lying from every orifice it has about the war, and I had been on that near daily since the 2022 invasion on Reddit up until the black out, fighting troll after troll and people who honestly think they are too important for the media to ever lie to them.

And what will be my reward here? If not censored again maybe I will get more accusations of being a Russian spy or having a crush on Putin? Or maybe just hating America/the West because its "less than perfect"...and never mind facts like America having the largest prison population in human history, CIA black sites, droning children to death, or refusing to send war criminals to the ICJ.

Seriously. I know what it takes to get people to talking as if they smartened up, though they rarely ever do. And what it takes is popularity, which I have no desire to have or ability to gain. (clever rhymes also help. :eyeroll ) But soon as people start down that path they start losing sight of what is important and the nonsense starts to take over.

So what real choice do I have? Prayer. That's all I got. Hopefully I won't die in a flash or slowly rotting to death from unraveled DNA, but if I do, at least it will be doing what I love; getting to the heart of matters....even this gender crappola.

For somebody who hates humanity you sure spend a lot of time interacting with questionable portions of it here on the Internet. If you truly love getting to the heart of matters perhaps you should take up reading and I don't mean Reddit. Debating with the humanity that you hate doesn't really get to the heart of matters. Although I suspect that's actually what you really enjoy, the masochistic pleasure of butting your head against people who don't see your enlightened points of view.

 

[Master of Time]

For somebody who hates humanity you sure spend a lot of time interacting with questionable portions of it here on the Internet. If you truly love getting to the heart of matters perhaps you should take up reading and I don't mean Reddit. Debating with the humanity that you hate doesn't really get to the heart of matters. Although I suspect that's actually what you really enjoy, the masochistic pleasure of butting your head against people who don't see your enlightened points of view.

You don't understand force of habit.

Also, I did not say humanity had nothing to teach. I am saying they don't learn what is truly important.....for example figuring out who is really after the truth and who is just in it for a fight. I cannot even imagine why it would be difficult to figure me out. I am angry and impatient sure. But I all do is scream for world peace...and there you are...thinking I am pining for a fight.....wondering why I get mad and now hate humanity.

 

[mdchachi]

But I all do is scream for world peace...

That's admirable in a sense but it's also not achievable. It's not a coincidence that all relatively peaceful and peace-loving societies have been wiped out by war-loving tribes.

 

[Master of Time]

I gotta tell you that its highly annoying that you would take something meant to prove my character over the arc of my postings, take it out of context, and basically start a new conversation.

It's not a coincidence that all relatively peaceful and peace-loving societies have been wiped out by war-loving tribes.

Again this is off topic, but I agree.

That's admirable in a sense but it's also not achievable.

Maybe now within the boundaries you have accepted.

There are people that need to be gotten rid of and all that needs to be done is they need to be recognized and removed from public life. They are not hard to spot. A lot of them are billionaires. They are oligarchs. They are what you might call alphas. They have got to go.

These baboons have a lot to teach:

 

[mdchachi]

I gotta tell you that its highly annoying that you would take something meant to prove my character over the arc of my postings, take it out of context, and basically start a new conversation.

"Annoyance" is you in your resting state. Or at least when you're interacting with humanity on the Internet state.

There are people that need to be gotten rid of and all that needs to be done is they need to be recognized and removed from public life. They are not hard to spot. A lot of them are billionaires. They are oligarchs. They are what you might call alphas. They have got to go.

Except once they are replaced, the so-called peace-loving good guys become power-hungry bad guys themselves. Though I guess most of them are wolves in sheep's clothing and weren't truly of pure heart to begin with.

 

[Master of Time]

Though I guess most of them are wolves in sheep's clothing and weren't truly of pure heart to begin with.

That is exactly right. And getting back to the actual topic here, there are plenty of them in the LGBT community as well, wanting far more power than they ever deserved and being belligerent irrational bullies to try and get it. All those types have to go...by peaceful means...by violent means...I don't care. We can't afford to have these types running around anymore, esp in government. Old style wars have been bad enough, but nukes, AI and drones means the next world war that these types are liable to cause is going to spell the end of humanity and all life on Earth.

To be clear I am not really against the LGBT+ community itself, but they are going to just have to accept the fact that they are an extreme minority, always will be, and due to that alone they will be misunderstood and face a degree of discrimination because of all that, and stop assuming its just raw hatred driving everything....it isn't. Those with deep raw hatred of the LGBT+ community are ALSO an extreme minority.

But the LGBT+ community is making ever more progress in power and recognition and the alpha bullies in the group are floating to the top as it goes on. We have had much the same with the feminists. Hell, we had much the same with NATO. Their original goals were satisfied but those who took the leadership roles just would not let go of the power they had amassed and so they pushed for ever more power and goals and just became dangerous pests.

So far my biggest annoyance with LGBT+ is stuff like this...wasting government time on vague laws, bills and discussions about "promotion of understanding"...which sounds more like a plea for everyone to just believe whatever dogma they are told to believe.

I don't care that they are around privately enjoying their private lives, but it seems the goal now is to go public with things even straight people hide plus the things that make the vast majority uncomfortable and always will.

The only sanity I see is a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy where people just mind their own business (the general concept of which I think we both agree on). That would mean things like marriage would cease to become a matter of public record.....you just have a register of people who can do things like handle your will, visit you in the hospital, are related to your tax filings ect. and no one has to know if its a marriage, a civil union, a non famililia but brotherly or sisterly relationship or whatever. Who is probably bonking who is not necessary information.

Well, I think I will stop this hodge podge post here and just say that what really matters is us avoiding armageddon, even if I cannot deny I do harbor a wish for it given reasons like the simple fact people won't or can't focus on that simple and vital current priority.

 

[nice gaijin]

I think it's somewhat comforting to imagine that there's just a few bad apples with power who are responsible for all that ails the world, and if we just take them out the situation would right itself, but greed and corruption and powerlust are hydras of human weakness; it always grows back when hacked away, unless true accountability is instantiated and evenly applied (which sounds nice and good but is a tall order if history is any indication). Those with power will often use projection to deflect from their own failings and corruption, and often it's marginalized communities who are targeted and abused by this cycle.

The rhetoric flying around about the LGBT community isn't peaceful, and it isn't "leaving them alone," it's conspiratorial accusations of some of the worst crimes people are capable of imagining. It's inherently violent in nature, and has rekindled hate crimes against the LGBT community. In the face of this, it makes sense to attempt to improve the general understanding that "there are people who have a different lived experience than my own, and that's ok, and knowing about their experience makes me a better neighbor and fellow citizen in this society we share."

I really don't know who you're talking about when you talk about alpha bullies in the LGBT+ community, or even feminists for that matter. Who are these powerful voices that speak for their communities, and are abusing that reach for their own selfish ends?

The only sanity I see is a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy where people just mind their own business (the general concept of which I think we both agree on). That would mean things like marriage would cease to become a matter of public record.....you just have a register of people who can do things like handle your will, visit you in the hospital, are related to your tax filings ect. and no one has to know if its a marriage, a civil union, a non famililia but brotherly or sisterly relationship or whatever. Who is probably bonking who is not necessary information.

"Don't ask, don't tell" in the military masked an underlying homophobia and bigotry where the military benefitted from the labors of dedicated soldiers of all sexual persuasions, so long as they could remain ignorant about it. As soon as someone's proclivities were revealed, regardless of what they'd done for their country, they'd be dishonorably discharged for who they were. Coming out was career suicide; perhaps that seems sane to you, because it doesn't affect you.

Some people are content to not confront the diversity of the world, and the more cemented their mentality, the more they freak out when confronted with the mind-boggling diversity of humanity, and lash out at what they don't understand. At a certain point, ignorance is indistinguishable from malice.

If you're worried about armageddon, I suspect the folks who bring it about are more likely to be homophobes than not.

 

[Master of Time]

@nicegaijin

Your latest post here is worthy of a much more detailed response. But I am extremely mentally busy at the moment. I hope I can get back to it.

But in response to the bullying, this interview is basically founded on the concept without being very direct about it. IMO this could be the best video you watch all year, despite the fact its 3 years old. Just the first 8 minutes nails so much of this.



I will also cite the treatment of JK Rowling as bullying.

Here is a brief example of the bullying of labeling...and more...which I have suffered myself...and no one calls me a neutral ever....even though I am probably the most neutral person you will meet in the sense that I think pretty much all sides in everything suck so hard I can't join a side....in fact...I tend to hate all sides in most things.....so....



And of course the many disruptions of people speaking. I am good with protests, but not letting people speak at venues created for speech is utter bullying.

 

[nice gaijin]

I had never heard of this Douglas Murray guy before, but since you were so sure this would be the best video I'd seen all year I figured I would give him the benefit of the doubt without first looking him up. A fresh slate from a new perspective, or so I hoped.

He made it about 2.5 minutes before he said "I'm not saying there wasn't discrimination in the past or even discrimination now, but by any reasonable estimation, in the last 50 years, all these rights issues have improved unimaginably, and I think have pretty much--pretty much gotten to the point that anyone would want them to get to, which is equality..." And goes on to say how "they" aren't satisfied with "equal," but want "more." Woof.

Pack up your protest signs, folks! The work is all done! Be sure to disperse in an orderly fashion or else it'll reflect poorly on the rest of us. All these people protesting are just getting greedy! Intolerance of intolerance is just oppression with more steps! He both complains that we can't just celebrate the progress we've made, but also that Pride has gone too far because it goes on too long, and his bank is shilling love and inclusiveness. He's so close to getting it (yes, corporations aren't people, and don't give a crap about people, stop humanizing them), but swerves away from the lesson at the last moment. Then he goes on sputter out some neocon platitudes and dog whistles, and some anonymous anecdotes to try and make his point. I couldn't even corroborate his story of a Belgian trans person who committed suicide after failed attempts to transition, despite the specific details he mentioned. So it seems like it's just another rhetorical device meant to go unexamined.

The interviewer asks him about an article he wrote on Sam Smith that drove a lot of attention and engagement (read: bullying) on Twitter, and his defense was that HE doesn't engage on Twitter, just "uses it as a publishing platform." So in other words, he just throws a steak into the pirahna pool and looks the other way, and when a little blood gets splashed on him he complains that people are just too angry and aren't trying to explain to him politely why they disagree. So THEY'RE the real bullies.

He says that chromosomes matter, but as I've pointed out before there's a whole spectrum of chromosomal expression that affect sex and gender, so he's just ignoring all that I guess. He says that using "they/them" pronouns is "mutilating" the language, so he's clearly not a linguist.

28:28: My view on the trans thing for instance is I always say I and I do call people by the name they ask me to call them sure but I won't then pretend as I say that chromosomes don't exist and why I say this and why I'm one of these people who on this ends up getting grief for this but it's worth it is because I know from societies that have gone wrong that one of the ways in which societies go wrong is when lies become embedded and in a way it matters less how big the lie is to begin with but it matters because lies are profoundly demoralizing

So, the downfall of society is because people are forced to accept things they know aren't true, and since he feels like his uninformed opinion of gender identity is true... if we don't shut down this whole thing and tell trans kids they might just be gay, next thing you know we're in NORTH KOREA (famously left-leaning regime, a virtual haven of gays and non-binary folks!)... he waffles a bit (there's not a lot of research yet) but then quotes a single unnamed study that claims that 80% of kids with gender dysphoria turn out to be just gay... that's a pretty bold claim to base your whole view on.

Best video I've seen all year? I've seen better cat videos this week. Do I even need to google this guy to find out that he's a Prager U contributor? (edit: yep! what a shock).

I don't disagree that identity politics can fuel divisiveness and rancor in public discourse, and there's a ton of people out there who misuse those arguments in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons. But this is brainless narcissism masquerading as intellectualism. This is Jordan Peterson with a posh British accent. This is Candace Owens for gay people.

All your other videos have no context so I don't really know what I'm looking at, except I have no idea who any of these people are. Even Murray in his interview was complaining about how prominent people were being rebranded by unnamed critics... You yourself used JK Rowling as an example, so we should all feel real bad for these billionaires who get lambasted for "standing firm" to their own bigotry? They're the real victims here because the internet people are mean to them? So I guess if you're letting literally anyone with a megaphone or an Internet connection be a spokesperson for a group they supposedly belong to, I guess I can just post screenshots from stormfront or videos of the Westboro Baptist Church or Proud Boys marching around with tiki torches as a counter point?

I can rattle off a whole list of alt right grifters who are massively profiting off their soapboxes over these nonsensical culture wars, and now I can add one more name to that list... so I once again ask, who are these big-name "alpha bullies" on the left who are leading the charge, and supposedly speaking for all progressives?

 

[Master of Time]

Well, your earlier post gave me some hope we might agree on some sense and have a sensible exchange, but now that has been imploded. I tell you what. I give up. This merry go round is not worth it. The war is going to rage with or without us and lets just see who comes out on top shall we? My vote is that trans activism is going to set the lives, rights and acceptance of trans people several steps back and engagement with people like yourself has removed any and all sympathy I might have otherwise had for them. Its all gone.

Its so gone, I cannot even feel sympathy for this person...that it took me literally a few seconds to find.

Belgian helped to die after three sex change operations

A transsexual is helped to die by doctors in Belgium, after a series of failed sex-change operations.

www.bbc.com

I still don't know what is up with you or why you are so deeply and visciously invested in this topic. I tried to help you. I wanted to help you. But you keep slapping my hand away and refuse all assistance. The trans community itself seems to be having much the same reaction as if helping and warning is actually worse than being a straight up enemy full of hatred. Its almost like you (and they) want enemies and war and just cannot bear the thought of peaceful coexistance.

So anyway, I used the search terms "Belgium trans euthanasia" and got several consecutive hits for Nathan Verhelst from the very top. Why you didn't I have no idea. Maybe algorythyms are now designed to hide what it reckons you don't want to see? Delete your cookies maybe?

As for Douglas Murray, I am certainly not in complete agreement with everything he says (yes, that old caveat again), but he certainly is calm, reflective, and I would say, not far off at all. If he cannot bring you down to more moderate takes and admissions of all the LGBTQ+ victories we have had and how close they were/are to simple equality, well, there is no hope for me, being such an insensitive, impatient, angry commentor on the world who is sick of pretty much everybody already anyway.

I don't think I will get into the other issues now, such as how billionaires are different from millionaires by a wide margin and just how many people it takes to prevent a society becoming half way decent. Its just not worth it here, as a side issue.

Enjoy the fire.

 

[nice gaijin]

Well, your earlier post gave me some hope we might agree on some sense and have a sensible exchange, but now that has been imploded. I tell you what. I give up. This merry go round is not worth it. The war is going to rage with or without us and lets just see who comes out on top shall we? My vote is that trans activism is going to set the lives, rights and acceptance of trans people several steps back and engagement with people like yourself has removed any and all sympathy I might have otherwise had for them. Its all gone.

Its so gone, I cannot even feel sympathy for this person...that it took me literally a few seconds to find.

Belgian helped to die after three sex change operations

A transsexual is helped to die by doctors in Belgium, after a series of failed sex-change operations.

www.bbc.com

I still don't know what is up with you or why you are so deeply and visciously invested in this topic. I tried to help you. I wanted to help you. But you keep slapping my hand away and refuse all assistance. The trans community itself seems to be having much the same reaction as if helping and warning is actually worse than being a straight up enemy full of hatred. Its almost like you (and they) want enemies and war and just cannot bear the thought of peaceful coexistance.

So anyway, I used the search terms "Belgium trans euthanasia" and got several consecutive hits for Nathan Verhelst from the very top. Why you didn't I have no idea. Maybe algorythyms are now designed to hide what it reckons you don't want to see? Delete your cookies maybe?

As for Douglas Murray, I am certainly not in complete agreement with everything he says (yes, that old caveat again), but he certainly is calm, reflective, and I would say, not far off at all. If he cannot bring you down to more moderate takes and admissions of all the LGBTQ+ victories we have had and how close they were/are to simple equality, well, there is no hope for me, being such an insensitive, impatient, angry commentor on the world who is sick of pretty much everybody already anyway.

I don't think I will get into the other issues now, such as how billionaires are different from millionaires by a wide margin and just how many people it takes to prevent a society becoming half way decent. Its just not worth it here, as a side issue.

Enjoy the fire.

Thank you, I searched for "Belgian trans suicide" and tried it with Douglas Murray's name but only found reference to him using this story, but no mention of the individual themself or their name. From the article it's unclear what role being trans had in their decision or whether they had changed their mind; I could certainly imagine that three failed attempts at bottom surgery would make life difficult if your goal is to be happy in your body, but also it sounds like they had serious issues with depression, as is a requirement in the euthanasia law. But of course the way Murray tells the story there's only one conclusion he wants to bring you to... I wonder why

You seem to think you are trying to be helpful, but ultimately you're trying to tell other people that you know better than them about how they should live their lives. That your narrow view of this one topic trumps their lived experience.

You act like there must be something wrong with me when I have compassion for people regardless of the body they find themselves in. I believe that we spend our youths figuring out who we are, and the rest of our lives dealing with what we discover. It's a comfort to find yourself in a privileged group, especially when you did nothing in particular to deserve playing life on easy mode (note: that doesn't mean that life IS easy, just that it could be a lot harder if you change some variables). I believe that puts you in the position to help others and advocate for them.

I may be impassioned but that doesn't make me wrong, I'm just as certain as I suppose you are that I'll fall on the right side of history. Douglas Murray may be calm and collected, but he also strikes me as a sh*thead with bad ideas. Being soft-spoken while gently lamenting how society is lost because it has become more accepting doesn't make him any less of a bigot.

I'm sorry you think that interacting with me has robbed you of your sympathy, but if that's the case then you didn't have much to begin with, or were just looking for an excuse to give up caring about other people. If you have no sympathy, then what hope it's there for empathy?