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Trying to figure out the meaning of a sentence

karenk

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3 Apr 2014
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Hi, I'm trying to figure out the meaning of the following sentence, more specifically the expression 飼い殺し:

男が自分に結婚を迫るのは、 自分の身体に一生飼い殺しの鎖り鎌を打ちかけようとするのと同じだと優子は思った。

How am i supposed to insert it here: "Yuko thought that the man urging her to marry him was like having someone trying to hit her body with a ........ sickle for the rest of her life".
 
飼い殺し means that he will keep her in home (only do domestic works), and not allow to work/do something she want to do by her will. 鎖り鎌を打ちかける is just a metaphor.
 
飼い殺し means that he will keep her in home (only do domestic works), and not allow to work/do something she want to do by her will. 鎖り鎌を打ちかける is just a metaphor.
Hum, I guess I still have to figure out a way to say it all... :unsure:
 
You can translate it into something that makes sense in your language.

Yuki thought that being married to him would be like living in a cage for the rest of her life.
 
You can translate it into something that makes sense in your language.

Yuki thought that being married to him would be like living in a cage for the rest of her life.
This would be the easiest solution, but I would like to keep something from 鎖り鎌を打ちかける... 🙃
 
Isn't a 鎖り鎌 a kind of weapon? I've seen it as sickle with a chain, so wouldn't 打ちかける mean that the man was trying to hit her with it, so to say metaphorically?
 
Kusarigama is indeed a sickle attached to a weighted chain whip. In addition to techniques of swinging the weight to strike the opponents head or hands, you can also entangle them with the chain, and in my search at least one result called it shibari jutsu. The keyword here is 鎖; it's more about getting chained/entangled/tied/bound up.

There are many ways you could interpret this, one take would be something like:
Yuuko(?) thought a man pressing her into marriage was the same as trying to ensnare her with a kusarigama/chain whip, to spend her life locked away (for their pleasure alone).

The part in parentheses is not in the original text, but how I'd interpret the 飼い殺し metaphor of a pet kept caged up in the context of getting "bound" or locked down by marriage.
 
Hi, could anyone confirm if ほど in the sentence below has the same meaning as すれば..するほど... , "the more... the more"?

優子はそれを感じるほど、自分 の生活に失望した.
 
Hi, could anyone confirm if ほど in the sentence below has the same meaning as すれば..するほど... , "the more... the more"?

優子はそれを感じるほど、自分 の生活に失望した.
DeepL translates it as
Yuko was so disappointed in her life that she felt it.
 
mdchachi said:
DeepL translates it as
Yuko was so disappointed in her life that she felt it.

I'm not going to deny that DeepL is a pretty impressive piece of software, and it certainly has its uses.
It's very helpful for people who don't speak Japanese to get the general gist of large documents, and for documents written in a relatively straightforward manner, the translation can actually be surprisingly functional (though often with some glaring mistakes, as anyone who has had to proofread or accuracy-check a DeepL-translated document can tell you).

That said, I really can't approve of proposing the use of machine translation (of any kind) as a way to better understand Japanese -- especially literary or creative Japanese. KarenK understands Japanese to a high level, and the questions she raises are usually about more abstract expressions that require understanding of context and interpretation. Just plugging the text into a translation algorithm is not going to offer her any real enlightenment, and will in many cases be completely unhelpful, misleading, or outright wrong.

In this case, I was able to find the full context and can say with confidence that the DeepL translation is completely inaccurate (and somewhat nonsensical).

優子はそれを全て感知ってゐた。新田が常に自分に就いて感じつつある全てを悉知ってた。自分が善良な妻である時を喜ぶやうに見える新田の突然な表情が、時折無意識のうちに新田の面にあがってきて彼女を驚かすことがあった。優子はそれを感じるほど、自分の生活に失望した。然かも新田へ對する優子の愛は、新田が自分を善良な妻として求めやうとするある一時の要求にも背向くことをさせなかった。

Clearly, from context, it's her feeling the what is described before the sentence in question that are resulting in her disappointment, not a certain level of disappointment in her life resulting her feeling these things. (~XほどY or ~XほどにY can mean "so Y that X", i.e. "Y to the extent that X", but that interpretation doesn't logically fit here.)

KarenK, your initial interpretation is on target, and it's worth pointing out that although the ~ば…~ほど "the more...the more" expression is almost always introduced as a single inseparable unit in textbooks and grammar references, very often in actual Japanese the first part is dropped.
 
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I'm not going to deny that DeepL is a pretty impressive piece of software, and it certainly has its uses.
It's very helpful for people who don't speak Japanese to get the general gist of large documents, and for documents written in a relatively straightforward manner, the translation can actually be surprisingly functional (though often with some glaring mistakes, as anyone who has had to proofread or accuracy-check a DeepL-translated document can tell you).

That said, I really can't approve of proposing it as the use of machine translation (of any kind) as a way to better understand Japanese -- especially literary or creative Japanese. KarenK clearly has a high level of Japanese, and the questions she raises are usually about more abstract expressions that require understanding of context and interpretation. Just plugging the text into a translation algorithm is not going to offer her any real enlightenment, and will in many cases be completely unhelpful, misleading, or outright wrong.

In this case, I was able to find the full context and can say with confidence that the DeepL translation is completely inaccurate (and somewhat nonsensical).



Clearly, from context, it's her feeling the what is described before the sentence in question that are resulting in her disappointment, not a certain level of disappointment in her life resulting her feeling these things. (~XほどY or ~XほどにY can mean "so Y that X", i.e. "Y to the extent that X", but that interpretation doesn't logically fit here.)

KarenK, your initial interpretation on target, and it's worth pointing out that although the ~ば…~ほど "the more...the more" expression is almost always introduced as a single inseparable unit in textbooks and grammar references, very often in actual Japanese the first part is dropped.
Thank you bentenmusume, I just wanted to check if my understanding was correct. And where did you find the text? Just curious, I bought the book and converted it into text. I've just found out that it is also avaible in a pdf file on the net, but the kanji are slightly different from the passage you posted and from the text I'm using.
 
Sorry about that! I fixed it for accuracy.

Obviously, they're both read おどかす and have the same basic meaning, but there is a usage distinction where 脅かす carries more of a nuance of scaring/threatening the other person rather than just surprising them.
 
I'm not going to deny that DeepL is a pretty impressive piece of software, and it certainly has its uses.
It's very helpful for people who don't speak Japanese to get the general gist of large documents, and for documents written in a relatively straightforward manner, the translation can actually be surprisingly functional (though often with some glaring mistakes, as anyone who has had to proofread or accuracy-check a DeepL-translated document can tell you).

That said, I really can't approve of proposing the use of machine translation (of any kind) as a way to better understand Japanese -- especially literary or creative Japanese. KarenK understands Japanese to a high level, and the questions she raises are usually about more abstract expressions that require understanding of context and interpretation. Just plugging the text into a translation algorithm is not going to offer her any real enlightenment, and will in many cases be completely unhelpful, misleading, or outright wrong.

In this case, I was able to find the full context and can say with confidence that the DeepL translation is completely inaccurate (and somewhat nonsensical).



Clearly, from context, it's her feeling the what is described before the sentence in question that are resulting in her disappointment, not a certain level of disappointment in her life resulting her feeling these things. (~XほどY or ~XほどにY can mean "so Y that X", i.e. "Y to the extent that X", but that interpretation doesn't logically fit here.)

KarenK, your initial interpretation is on target, and it's worth pointing out that although the ~ば…~ほど "the more...the more" expression is almost always introduced as a single inseparable unit in textbooks and grammar references, very often in actual Japanese the first part is dropped.
But you cheated. DeepL does better with more context too. ;)

Yuko knew all about it. She knew everything that Nitta was constantly feeling about her. Nitta's sudden expressions of joy at being a good wife would sometimes startle her as she unconsciously came face to face with him. The more Yuko felt this, the more disappointed she was in her own life. However, Yuko's love for Nitta did not allow her to turn her back on his demands for her to be a good wife.
 
But you cheated. DeepL does better with more context too. ;)

Yuko knew all about it. She knew everything that Nitta was constantly feeling about her. Nitta's sudden expressions of joy at being a good wife would sometimes startle her as she unconsciously came face to face with him. The more Yuko felt this, the more disappointed she was in her own life. However, Yuko's love for Nitta did not allow her to turn her back on his demands for her to be a good wife.
This was my first contact with DeepL, I've compared some passages of my translation to its rendition and found it really good, much better than google's. But there are still a few mistakes in the passage that comes before the one I asked about...
 
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But you cheated. DeepL does better with more context too. ;)
Haha.

Well, in response to that, I could say that the reason I "cheated" and sought out the additional context was that I strongly suspected that the translation was wrong, whereas DeepL will happily spit out mistranslations on occasion without ever thinking to doubt itself. ;)

karenk said:
But there are still a few mistakes in passage that comes before the one I asked about...
Hardly surprising. Machine translation has come a long way (and DeepL is definitely better than free resources like Google Translate), but it's still far, far from 100% reliable when dealing with Japanese-to-English (or vice versa).

I stand by my initial statement that it's not a particularly good way to understand or appreciate literature.
 
they're both read おどかす
驚かす is only read as おどろかす, and never means "to threaten".;)


Also, 脅かす is not used "to surprise someone nonvolitionally/unintentionally". 驚かす/驚かせる is only used for this meaning.
e.g.
新年元旦に父親の前で5歳のシモーヌが新聞を読んでみせ父親を驚かせた。

This difference would be come from the etymology of these words, i.e., 驚かす is from 驚く, and 脅かす is from 脅す.
 
Haha.

Well, in response to that, I could say that the reason I "cheated" and sought out the additional context was that I strongly suspected that the translation was wrong, whereas DeepL will happily spit out mistranslations on occasion without ever thinking to doubt itself. ;)


Hardly surprising. Machine translation has come a long way (and DeepL is definitely better than free resources like Google Translate), but it's still far, far from 100% reliable when dealing with Japanese-to-English (or vice versa).

I stand by my initial statement that it's not a particularly good way to understand or appreciate literature.
Don't worry your profession is probably safe for a little while longer. Not so sure about the next generation though.
 
驚かす is only read as おどろかす, and never means "to threaten".;)

Indeed. I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking there. I'd like to blame it on being too early in the morning and my vision and mind both being fuzzy, but even then that's not really any excuse.

In any event, thank you for the correction.

Don't worry your profession is probably safe for a little while longer. Not so sure about the next generation though.
Ouch.

But yes, I fully admit to being biased here. And yes, I'm already older than I'd like to be and probably won't be enjoying a particularly long life given my recent health, and I doubt I'll be encouraging my daughter to follow in my footsteps, even if she does show an interest in language.

In any event, I think my posts today are showing me that it's time to take another extended break from internet forums, as I'm probably doing more harm to my own mental health and to all of you than I'm doing anything resembling good.

Cheers to you all.
 
Indeed. I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking there. I'd like to blame it on being too early in the morning and my vision and mind both being fuzzy, but even then that's not really any excuse.

In any event, thank you for the correction.


Ouch.

But yes, I fully admit to being biased here. And yes, I'm already older than I'd like to be and probably won't be enjoying a particularly long life given my recent health, and I doubt I'll be encouraging my daughter to follow in my footsteps, even if she does show an interest in language.

In any event, I think my posts today are showing me that it's time to take another extended break from internet forums, as I'm probably doing more harm to my own mental health and to all of you than I'm doing anything resembling good.

Cheers to you all.
I've never seen you do anything but good here. If it was anything I said, I apologize.
 
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