降り出さん / 降り出そうだ / おこりたくなる / 別の実験では...

[eeky]

Hiya,

1. 雨が降り出さんばかりだ。

Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."

What is 降り出さん? Presumably derived from 降り出す, but I don't understand the さん (or is it さ + ん?) ending. I seem to remember that ～ん can be short for ～ない, but would that make sense here?


2. 雨が降り出そうだ。

Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."

Is 出そう simply the volitional form of 出す, or does it have something to do with そうだ as in "seems/looks like"?


3.

A: 「はらが立つ」って、どういうことですか。
B: 「おこりたくなる」ということですよ。

Translation given:

A: What does it mean, 「はらが立つ」?
B: It means to get angry.

What is おこりたくなる? I know おこる means "to get angry", but I don't understand the -たく- part. It looks like it's something do do with wanting to get angry??


4. Another verb-て question. I apologise if it's similar to any I've asked before.

別の実験では同じ形で同じ大きさの箱を２つ持ってもらって、どちらの箱が重いか尋ねました。

My translation: "In another experiment, (people) were given (lit. received) two boxes of the same shape and size to hold, and (we) asked them which was heavier."

Is it right that the subject of 尋ねました is the person performing the experiment, and yet the subject of 持ってもらって is the person on whom the experiment is performed? If so, does this unannounced switch of subject seem at all awkward in Japanese, or is it fine?

 

[srintuar]

別の実験では同じ形で同じ大きさの箱を２つ持ってもら って、どちらの箱が重いか尋ねました。
My translation: "In another experiment, (people) were given (lit. received) two boxes of the same shape and size to hold, and (we) asked them which was heavier."
Is it right that the subject of 尋ねました is the person performing the experiment, and yet the subject of 持ってもらって is the person on whom the experiment is performed? If so, does this unannounced switch of subject seem at all awkward in Japanese, or is it fine?

Isnt the acting subject of both the experimenter?

2. 雨が降り出そうだ。

Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."

Is 出そう simply the volitional form of 出す, or does it have something to do with そうだ as in "seems/looks like"?

I'm going to guess its the same as "あめがふりだしそうだ"
"looks like its gonna rain"

 

[srintuar]

Hiya,
1. 雨が降り出さんばかりだ。
Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."
What is 降り出さん? Presumably derived from 降り出す, but I don't understand the さん (or is it さ + ん?) ending. I seem to remember that ～ん can be short for ～ない, but would that make sense here?

Hrm, it reminds me of the word "～といわんばかり" which is something like "everything just short of saying ～" . In that case, its the negative plain for verb + ばかり meaning "just shy of "

 

[eeky]

Isnt the acting subject of both the experimenter?

Actually, I think you're right. It just occurred to me that もら って means that the experimenters received the favour of someone doing sth. for them (i.e. "we had people hold two boxes"), not that the subjects of the experiment received the boxes. I think I've made this mistake several times. I should remember by now!

 

[Toritoribe]

1. 雨が降り出さんばかりだ。
Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."
What is 降り出さん? Presumably derived from 降り出す, but I don't understand the さん (or is it さ + ん?) ending. I seem to remember that ～ん can be short for ～ない, but would that make sense here?

Right. It's 降り出さ(the pre -nai form of 降り出す) + ん. This ん is the n-euphonic change of む; the adjectival form(連体形) of a classical auxiliary verb む, which expresses the speaker's guess.
む［助動］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

降り出さむ → 降り出さん ＝ 降り出しそう
降り出さぬ → 降り出さん ＝ 降り出さない

Incidentally, most Japanese high school students struggle with this confusing ん, む, ぬ in classical Japanese class.

2. 雨が降り出そうだ。
Translation given: "It looks like it's going to start raining any second now."
Is 出そう simply the volitional form of 出す, or does it have something to do with そうだ as in "seems/looks like"?

I think it's simply a typo of 雨が降り出しそうだ.

3.
A: 「はらが立つ」って、どういうことですか。
B: 「おこりたくなる」ということですよ。
Translation given:
A: What does it mean, 「はらが立つ」?
B: It means to get angry.
What is おこりたくなる? I know おこる means "to get angry", but I don't understand the -たく- part. It looks like it's something do do with wanting to get angry??

Yes. It's 怒る＋たい＋なる; to be tempted to get angry (literally, to become to be a state of getting angry).

4. Another verb-て question. I apologise if it's similar to any I've asked before.
別の実験では同じ形で同じ大きさの箱を２つ持ってもらって、どちらの箱が重いか尋ねました。
My translation: "In another experiment, (people) were given (lit. received) two boxes of the same shape and size to hold, and (we) asked them which was heavier."
Is it right that the subject of 尋ねました is the person performing the experiment, and yet the subject of 持ってもらって is the person on whom the experiment is performed? If so, does this unannounced switch of subject seem at all awkward in Japanese, or is it fine?

As srintuar-san pointed out, the subjent of 持ってもらう is "we", the person(s) performing the experiment.

（私達が彼らに）箱を持ってもらう(We receive the favor from them.)
causer: 私達, causee: 彼ら

EDIT:
You seem to be convinced about #4, while I'm writing.

 

[eeky]

降り出さむ → 降り出さん ＝ 降り出しそう
降り出さぬ → 降り出さん ＝ 降り出さない

Thanks Toritoribe. You mention classical Japanese; could I confirm which of the above forms are used in modern Japanese? Well, I know that ～しそう and ～さない are, of course. And I assume that ～さん in the first sense above is in current use, since it was in my example sentence? What about ～さむ, ～さぬ and ～さん in the second sense above? All old-fashioned?

 

[Toritoribe]

Sorry, I apparently misinterpreted about ん. It actually is the n-euphonic change of ぬ(the negation auxiliary verb), and not む.

４ （動詞の連体形または助動詞「ぬ（ん）」を受けて）ある動作が今にも行われようとする状態を表す。「いつでも出発できる―になっている」「泣き出さん―の顔」

ばかり【許り】［副助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

As for your question about modern Japanese, ん and ぬ are still used today, especially in proverbs or idiomatic phrases. You can see some examples in dictionaries.

（「ねばならぬ（ん）」「ねばなるまい」の形で）当然・義務の意を表す。「明日は会社に八時までに行かねばならぬ」/行かねばならん（＝ 行かなければならない）

ぬ［助動］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

現代語でも文語調の文章の中に「ん」の形で用いられる。「幸多からんことを祈る」「政治家たらんとする者は」「あらん限りの力」「まさに出発せんとする時」

む(ム)とは - コトバンク

Also, I found an interesting thread in this forum.
んとする | Japan Forum

 

[srintuar]

I use the "ぬ" form a lot, but thatｓ because i think it sounds cool. I dont encounter it used much outside of 時代劇, or 見栄っ張り
I really dont use or encounter the む forms very much honestly, and I think they can be quite confusing. I'd also like to hear Toritoribe-san's answer

##
Ah, I see he has answered already above

 

[eeky]

Sorry, I apparently misinterpreted about ん. It actually is the n-euphonic change of ぬ(the negation auxiliary verb), and not む.

So, going back to the original sentence, are you saying that 雨が降り出さんばかりだ = 雨が降り出さぬばかりだ = 雨が降り出さないばかりだ?

 

[Toritoribe]

The first two are correct, but you can't say 降り出さないばかりだ. As in the annotation in my quote 動詞の連体形または助動詞「ぬ（ん）」を受けて, this ばかり, meaning "to be about to do/to be just going to do", is used only with ん/ぬ or the dictionary form of verbs.

As for another meaning "because", ない can be used.

彼が時間通りに来ないばかりに/ばっかりに、みんなが電車に乗り遅れてしまった。
Because he didn't arrive on time, we all missed the train.
(This ばかり is alway used as ばかりに, plus, it has a negative meaning, as same as 彼が来ないせいで.)

 

[eeky]

I must admit I'm still confused about this one. As I understand it from your post, ん in 雨が降り出さんばかりだ is "the n-euphonic change of ぬ (the negation auxiliary verb)". With ばかり meaning "to be about to do/to be just going to do", the sentence would therefore appear to mean "It's about to not start raining", which is the exact opposite of the translation given. Does ん/ぬ somehow lose its negative sense in this particular context?

 

[srintuar]

I must admit I'm still confused about this one. As I understand it from your post, ん in 雨が降り出さんばかりだ is "the n-euphonic change of ぬ (the negation auxiliary verb)". With ばかり meaning "to be about to do/to be just going to do", the sentence would therefore appear to mean "It's about to not start raining", which is the exact opposite of the translation given. Does ん/ぬ somehow lose its negative sense in this particular context?

This is how i made sense of it:
ばかり = only
only not == all but
降り出さぬ = not rain
雨が降り出さんばかりだ
[the] only thing the weather hasnt done yet is actually rain
== it is all but raining
== its about to rain
similarly:
There are only a few seconds left on the clock == the game is all but over == the game is about to end

 

[Toritoribe]

I must admit I'm still confused about this one. As I understand it from your post, ん in 雨が降り出さんばかりだ is "the n-euphonic change of ぬ (the negation auxiliary verb)". With ばかり meaning "to be about to do/to be just going to do", the sentence would therefore appear to mean "It's about to not start raining", which is the exact opposite of the translation given. Does ん/ぬ somehow lose its negative sense in this particular context?

Oh, my! I mistook again!!:sorry: It's not the ぬ of the negation but the ぬ of the perfect tense.

《完了の助動詞「ぬ」の終止形＋副助詞「ばかり」》動詞の連用形に付く。今にも…してしまいそうに。…しただけ。

ぬばかりの意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

Allow me to explain that the perfect tense ぬ rarely changes to ん.

the conjugation of the perfect tense auxiliary verb ぬ

［助動］［な｜に｜ぬ｜ぬる｜ぬれ｜ね］

ぬ［助動］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

the conjugation of the negation auxiliary verb ぬ

［助動］［〇｜ず（ん）｜ぬ（ん）｜ぬ（ん）｜ね｜〇］

ぬ［助動］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

Classical Japanese is indeed complicated...

EDIT:
Another excuse

The perfect tense ぬ is connected with 連用形(the adverbial form, the equivalent to the pre -masu form in modern Japanese) of verbs,
so the form should be 降り出しぬばかりだ. That's why I interpreted the ぬ/ん must be the negation.
This is my wild guess, but the confusion must be occuerred between the usage "the negation ぬ/ん + ばかり" and "the perfect tense ぬ + ばかり" sometime in the past. (I didn't check any reliable sources, though.)

《打消しの助動詞「ず」の連体形＋副助詞「ばかり」》動詞の未然形に付く。…ないだけ。…ないほど。

《完了の助動詞「ぬ」の終止形＋副助詞「ばかり」》動詞の連用形に付く。今にも…してしまいそうに。…しただけ。

ぬばかりの意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

 

[eeky]

It's not the ぬ of the nagation but the ぬ of the perfect tense.

Oh! In English, the perfect tense would be "It looks like it's about to have started raining". Is it the same idea in Japanese? (As it happens, this usage isn't very natural in English.)

Also, can I just check: Is the sentence 雨が降り出さんばかりだ standard modern Japanese that you can read and understand perfectly easily, and all the difficulties we've had simply result from unravelling the etymological origin of this ん in old Japanese?

EDIT: what do you think of Srintuar's interpretation in his latest post?

 

[Toritoribe]

Oh! In English, the perfect tense would be "It looks like it's about to have started raining". Is it the same idea in Japanese? (As it happens, this usage isn't very natural in English.)

Yes, I think so.

Also, can I just check: Is the sentence 雨が降り出さんばかりだ standard modern Japanese that you can read and understand perfectly easily, and all the difficulties we've had simply result from unravelling the etymological origin of this ん in old Japanese?

Yeah, we can easily differentiate the usages 雨が降り出さんばかりだ(be about to), 彼が来ないばかりに(because), 雨ばかりか雪まで降ってきた(besides) and so on.

EDIT: what do you think of Srintuar's interpretation in his latest post?

I think "the perfect tense ぬ" makes sense.

 

[eeky]

I see. Thanks for your perseverance with this question!

 

[Glenn]

頭が・・・頭が・・・爆発せんばかりだ！(Probably not a natural usage...)

Also, フォースと共にあらんことを and 風と共に去りぬ fit nicely into this discussion. Or they don't, depending on your viewpoint.

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, those classical expressions are often used in literature, movie, etc. to make an effect. フォースと一緒にありますように/風と一緒に去った has completely different impression.


By the way, I'm still confused about んばかり. There seems to be two different origins.

(2)本来、古語の推量の助動詞「む」から生じたと考えられる「あらん限り」「泣かんばかり 」の「ん」との混同から、「あらぬ限り」「泣かぬばかり」などの言い方が みられる。「あら〈ぬ〉限りの力を振りしぼって頑張っ た」「それは当然の事だと言は〈ぬ〉ばかりの顔をした 」

ぬ(ヌ)とは - コトバンク

〔2〕 〔補説〕 完了の助動詞「ぬ」の終止形「ぬ」に副助詞「ばかり」 の付いたもの
［1］ 文末に用いられる場合。…してしまうだけ。…してしま うくらい。

消えはててやみ―か年をへて君を思ひのしるしなければ 〔出典： 後撰（恋一）〕

［2］ 文中に用いられる場合。…してしまいそうなくらい。

かきくらし思ひ乱れて、枕も浮き―人やりならず流しそ へつつ〔出典： 源氏（柏木）〕

ぬばかり(ヌバカリ)とは - コトバンク

Thus, 三省堂大辞林 says 振り出さぬばかり originated from the misuse of ぬ, and 振り出さんばかり is originally from む of the speaker's guess as in my initial interpretation. Google seach also suggests "完了の助動詞「ぬ」＋「ばかり」" is used only in classical Japanese. I, too, feel, for instance, 振り出しぬばかり sounds too classical.

Hmm, I have to say again that classical Japanese is indeed complicated.

 

[Glenn]

I imagine that's due in no small part to it being a mish-mash of the language at different times, i.e., Old Japanese, Classical (Heian /Murasaki Shikibu/Sei Shonagon) Japanese, Middle Japanese, Edo-era Japanese, etc. There are over a thousand years in that.

 

[Glenn]

Sorry to further barge in here, but I wanted to ask: would 頭が炸裂しそうだ be a natural way of what I was shooting for above?

 

[Toritoribe]

It would be acceptable. 炸裂 often has a nuance that the explosion produces an effect on something besides the bomb itself. Interestingly, I got a result that 頭が炸裂した is used as ヘディングシュートが決まった on google search.

 

[Glenn]

Ha, that's an interesting usage. So, would 頭が爆発しそうだ be better? Or is the difference too minimal to matter?

 

[Toritoribe]

I think 爆発 would be more common.

 

[Glenn]

OK, I kind of figured that from your explanation (and the Google results) of 炸裂, but it's good to be sure. ありがとうございます。