Would YOU vote YES to fire missiles & drop bombs on innocent people in Location X?

[Steve Red]

Imagine that some human beings were murdered in the country in which you are a citizen, and that some military officials claim to suspect the murderers are hiding somewhere. Also, imagine that the country you are a citizen of is a Direct-Democracy, meaning every citizen has an equal vote on every proposed government action. Would YOU vote YES or NO on the following:

#01) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in AFGHANISTAN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in AFGHANISTAN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in AFGHANISTAN?

#02) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in IRAQ, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in IRAQ
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in IRAQ?

#03) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in IRAN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in IRAN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in IRAN?

#04) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in LEBANON, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in LEBANON
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in LEBANON?

#05) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in THE WEST BANK & GAZA STRIP, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in THE WEST BANK & GAZA STRIP
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in THE WEST BANK & GAZA STRIP?

#06) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in JORDAN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in JORDAN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in JORDAN?

#07) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in ISRAEL, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in ISRAEL
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in ISRAEL?

#08) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in SAUDI ARABIA, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in SAUDI ARABIA
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in SAUDI ARABIA?

#09) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES?

#10) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in SYRIA, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in SYRIA
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in SYRIA?

#11) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in YEMEN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in YEMEN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in YEMEN?

#12) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in PAKISTAN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in PAKISTAN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in PAKISTAN?

#13) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in INDIA, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in INDIA
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in INDIA?

#14) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in SWITZERLAND, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in SWITZERLAND
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in SWITZERLAND?

#15) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in CHINA, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in CHINA
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in CHINA?

#16) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in RUSSIA, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in RUSSIA
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in RUSSIA?

#17) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in FRANCE, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in FRANCE
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in FRANCE?

#18) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in THE UNITED KINGDOM, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in THE UNITED KINGDOM
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in THE UNITED KINGDOM?

#19) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in THE UNITED STATES, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in THE UNITED STATES
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in THE UNITED STATES?

#20) If the suspects are reportedly hiding in THE PARTICULAR CITY YOU LIVE IN, would YOU vote YES
to firing missiles & dropping bombs on innocent people living in THE PARTICULAR CITY YOU LIVE IN
in an effort to try to kill the murder suspects reportedly hiding in THE PARTICULAR CITY YOU LIVE IN?

 

[Steve Red]

Here, I'll go ahead and post the joke I suspect someone will write, "I would vote YES to dropping bombs on wherever the person who created this POLL lives."

Now that that the wind has been taken out of that joke, seriously, do the majority of humans reading this realize that firing missiles and dropping bombs upon innocent human beings in ANY location is Terrorism?

However you label it, "Revenge", or "Pre-Emptive Strikes", or "Defense", or "Attempts to get other countries to change their policies", or "War": if your country kills innocent people, or even supposedly-guilty people without a trial, it's Terrorism.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

I think I will wait until............

they invent a "virus" bomb that only kills those whose minds are filled with evil/greed/hatred/etc. and spares the average good person. Then, bombs away all over the world.

Uncle Frank

PS - Don't think I will live long enough to ever see it.

 

[Half-n-Half]

However you label it, "Revenge", or "Pre-Emptive Strikes", or "Defense", or "Attempts to get other countries to change their policies", or "War": if your country kills innocent people, or even supposedly-guilty people without a trial, it's Terrorism.

I think you need to be careful and not over-generalize. Revenge, pre-emptive strikes etc. != targeting and killing innocents/supposedly-guilty people to instill fear and intimidation, which is what terrorism is. That doesn't mean I think it's OK. I would never vote to bomb innocents, which I guess is a blanket vote to your poll.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Not enough information to make the call.

Did we first demand that the other country extradite the terrorists? Would sharing intelligence with that other country jeopardize capturing or killing the terrorists?

Also, when terrorists or enemy combatants take shelter among women and children, who is responsible for civilian casualties? If you're going to engage in acts of war, you should expect acts of war to be directed at you.

 

[Steve Red]

"Somebody killed some people I loved.
I say the murder suspects are living in YOUR country.
So, YOUR country must arrest and extradite whoever I say did it,
or I will begin killing thousands of innocent people living in YOUR country."

"Somebody killed some people I loved.
I say the murder suspects are living in YOUR country.
So, YOUR country must arrest and extradite whoever I say did it,
or I will begin killing thousands of innocent people living in YOUR country."

One of the above feelings is being held by U.S. "bombs for justice" action-supporters.
One of the above feelings is being held by Arab "bombs for justice" action-supporters.

Can anyone here tell which of the above "rational" feelings is being held by which group?

 

[Hezam]

"Somebody killed some people I loved.
I say the murder suspects are living in YOUR country.
So, YOUR country must arrest and extradite whoever I say did it,
or I will begin killing thousands of innocent people living in YOUR country."

"Somebody killed some people I loved.
I say the murder suspects are living in YOUR country.
So, YOUR country must arrest and extradite whoever I say did it,
or I will begin killing thousands of innocent people living in YOUR country."

One of the above feelings is being held by U.S. "bombs for justice" action-supporters.
One of the above feelings is being held by Arab "bombs for justice" action-supporters.

Can anyone here tell which of the above "rational" feelings is being held by which group?

I totally agree

 

[Steve Red]

Right on Hezam! See, we are in the peace group that says, "Bombs are never justifiable."

Plus, there is the confusing issue of American leaders killing American citizens on 9-11.
Even though I know that Cheney (who issued the stand-down order the morning of 9-11)
and Bush's family (whose Security Company rigged WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 with bombs)
are guilty of killing over 3000 people on 9-11, we do NOT say, "Arrest them or I start bombing!"

We simply do what all human beings should do: we use WORDS and HOPE the arrests will be made.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Bad, BAD Osama! Don't murder people again! Now, go turn yourself in to the law, will you?"

"Please please please, Mr. Taliban, please go arrest al Qaeda! They are BAD people!"

Ya really think one of those would have worked?

Btw, the theory that the US government did 9/11 has even less credible support than the good old JFK assassination conspiracy theory. Consider these two questions, to start:

1. Do you know how HARD it is for most human beings to keep secrets?

2. How many people would have been required to pull off such a 9/11 conspiracy?

My rule of thumb is that for each additional person who knows the secret, the risk of exposure goes up by an order of magnitude. If you don't believe me, then make up something really scandalous or sensational, and tell it to ONE person at work, after swearing them to secrecy. I'll bet it won't take long for the information to be known by everyone at work.

If you ever want to get away with a crime, be sure to do the job yourself. Then keep your mouth shut for the rest of your life. Don't tell anyone, not even your good old buddy or the person you sleep with. Someone always blabs. That's the biggest way cops catch crooks. One of them blabs, brags about the deal to a friend or spills it in bed with his girl.

If 9/11 had been done by dozens, if not hundreds, of federal agents, someone would have blabbed in the last ten years. In fact, bin Laden and others in al Queda couldn't help bragging about it themselves. Just like other criminals.

 

[Steve Red]

Zoom Out #1) Would you, Roland, having wittingly or unwittingly committed murder under direct orders from the head of the DoD, "blab" about what you did, if YOU were convinced that your entire family would be ruthlessly tortured then killed?

Nope, if you love your alive family MORE than you love 3,000 dead strangers, you would NOT "blab" about what you did.

Zoom Out #2) Would you, Roland, having committed murder under direct orders from the head of the DoD, "blab" about what you did, if YOU were convinced that the killing of 3,000 civilians was a NECESSARY action long-term to prevent a nuclear threat to all of America and thus you were SAVING THE LIVES of 300 million citizens, and that talking about what you did would cause the destruction of the DoD and thus in your mind the destruction of America?"

Nope, if you love your alive 300 million fellow citizens MORE than you love 3,000 dead fellow citizens, you would NOT "blab" about what you did.

Zoom Out #3) Would you, Roland, having committed murder under direct orders from the head of the DoD, "blab" about what you did, if YOU had NO IDEA that the small seemingly innocent part you played, like controlling a missile or wiring supposedly dummy explosives, wasn't merely part of the Operation Northern Vigilance War Games "training" that admittedly was coincidentally being run that morning?

Nope, if you honestly thought that you were simply following innocent orders of "simulating a hijacked plane crashing into building for vital training for future preparedness", and that the real life situation which suddenly occurred on the same day was COINCIDENTAL, in your mind there would be nothing to "blab" about, you were simply following innocent orders for the innocent Operation Northern Vigilance War Games which are public knowledge and not denied by your superiors at all, and you are NOT CONSCIOUS of the fact that your actions were involved in the death of over 3,000 citizens.

Zoom Out #4) Would you, Roland, have the chance to even consider "blabbing" about what you did, if after your work was done you were KILLED?

Nope, dead men do NOT "blab".

The little military pawns who were to take part in Operation Northwoods would OF COURSE have been killed immediately after they played their part in such actions:
http://info.publicintelligence.net/northwoods.pdf

Never-mind all this "debate" Roland, here's the whole thing in a nutshell:

A) Osama killed 3,000+ on 9-11 to scare Americans to DECREASE bombs being dropped in the middle-east.

B) PNAC members killed 3,000+ on 9-11 to scare Americans into INCREASE bombs being dropped in the middle-east.

Either way, Roland, whichever theory is true, YOU are part of the current majority which thinks that there IS justification to drop bombs on people, correct?

I am part of the current minority which thinks there is NEVER justification to drop bombs on people. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. If you are a crazy Swiss man who killed my family, I would NEVER justify dropping bombs on Switzerland. I would simply hope and speak in an effort to encourage people to bring the suspect to trial so that evidence could be presented, and if that day never came, OH WELL! Killing a bunch of Swiss people is not going to bring my family back.

I can hear your inner dialogue right now, "But, but, that's crazy talk! You're suggesting that sometimes bad guys get away with murder! That means we have no control of the world! That means no more trial-less revenge tactics can be used! That means no more dropping bombs on people! All we can do is use words and hope that the bad guys will eventually be arrested! And if the bad guys AREN'T arrested that means the only punishment for them is sleepless-nights! This is crazy talk! I would prefer dropping bombs on innocent humans in the middle east because hey, there are murderers in the middle east. Now, honestly, I would NEVER advocate dropping bombs in Los Angeles or New York or Switzerland. Even if the terrorists hid out in Switzerland, and the Swiss authorities refused to get involved, I would probably NOT authorize dropping bombs on innocent Swiss people, because, well, the truth is, I think Arab lives are worth a little bit LESS than white lives. Oops, did I really just admit that? My conscience must be unconsciously expressing itself. Back to my main point, Steve, you are simply talking crazy talk, this whole idea of NEVER dropping bombs on people in the middle-east! Crazy! I will continue to try to justify the dropping of bombs on people in the middle-east for the rest of my life. I will NEVER change my mind! The end."

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

You shouldn't spend so many electrons imagining my answers for me, 'cause I'm probably not the guy you think I am.

For instance, I am convinced that the Bush II administration DID engage in a secret, criminal conspiracy to invade Iraq. They deliberately ran a campaign to deceive a majority of Americans into supporting that invasion. As a result, an estimated 100,00 Iraqis died -- and I do NOT consider people of other races and nations to be worth less than Americans. I've been married to a Japanese woman for 35 years, and have mixed-race kids, so please don't accuse me of that.

I think Bush, Cheney, and the other conspirators belong in jail. But too many Americans are still in denial about the facts of the Iraq invasion, and it looks like the Bush team will never be held to account for their actions.

There is a point to this, aside from defending myself. The facts of the Iraq conspiracy DID come out. People blabbed. There is documentary evidence, too.

Why do criminals ever blab, and get caught? Because it's human nature.

The claim that the government coerced (through death-threats) a number of its soldiers or employees to commit mass murder, and got away with it for ten years, is a fantastic, extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I know ... I am off topic again, but may I ?
WWI was a trench war and many,many young men died.
WWII was a war where men, woman and children were killed.The A-bomb fell on two towns in Japan, fire bombs burned Tokyo. The beautiful town Dresden in Germany was bombed, 5 million Jews were killed in Europe. Staligrad in Russia was a nightmare. And so on.

Are we now in WWIII ?
I was so enthusiast European Union. No more war on this Continent. And indeed there is no more war in Europe. But there is war all over the rest of the world.
It never stops, and the Europeans are still helping to kill but now outside Europe.
What a tragedy.

Ya, I know that I am off topic. Sorry!

 

[Steve Red]

OK, OK, Roland, perhaps you don't think Arab people's lives are worth less than White people's lives, but I highly doubt you would authorize dropping bombs on Switzerland just because Switzerland was supposedly harboring a supposed murderer.

You feel Bush engaged in a conspiracy which killed 100,000 Iraqis. So, if the Iraqi people issued a statement which said, "Extradite Bush to Iraq or our military will start dropping bombs on American civilians" and then America refused to extradite Bush, THEN, IN THAT CASE, would you say that it is justified for Iraq to start dropping bombs on American civilians?

If you say NO to bombing Americans for the murders undeniably committed by American leaders, but YES to bombing Arabs for murders supposedly committed by Al Qaeda leaders, there is racism deeply rooted in that stance.

WHY can't Arabs drop bombs on American citizens to avenge the murders committed by a few Americans, but American people CAN drop bombs on Arab citizens to avenge the murders committed by a few Arabs?

 

[Steve Red]

If military people want to kill military people, go for it, have dogfights in the sky! Kill each other off, you brainwashed mercenaries who kill for a living.

But when military people kill civilians, that's it, you've become everything you hate. You're justifying the use of VIOLENCE and FEAR OF MORE VIOLENCE to get other people to DO WHAT YOU WANT.

Look, do what I say or I will kill you. That's really what you're saying, with all the tatemae stripped away. Do what I say or I will kill you.

Every single war is a matter of that, I have NOT been fooled into thinking, "This war was justified, these civilian deaths were unavoidable." EVERY single case of a bomb dropped on a human is murder, I don't care what "bad guy" you were supposedly trying to free the world of, whether it's Hitler, Hussein, Bush, or Osama.

If tonight I drop a bomb on your home, because your leader dropped a bomb on mine, suddenly all your justification for bomb dropping is going to disappear in an instant.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Rolandtheheadless

I think that most of us believe what we want to believe. And I agree with you: some of us get away with murder.
There are no bad and cruel nations, only cruel and bad people.

I will say NO to killing innocent people where ever they may live.
I never wanted a A-bomb on Japan although Japanese military killed my father and my uncle.
I wish understanding, human rights and peace for all the next generations to come.

 

[Steve Red]

Positive post, love it! I'm gonna' get back on the positive side of this issue.

Yeah, let's talk about how to positively motivate people to do what you want (capture a suspect) WITHOUT using bombs, and WITHOUT threatening to use bombs:

#1) How about offering big money REWARDS for capturing suspects for trials.
That's how it works within a country, when we are searching for a murder suspect, right? We don't say, "A serial killer is on the loose in Baltimore. Baltimore officials and residents: you must capture the suspect which we name or prepare to die. If Baltimore doesn't capture this suspect within one month, the bombing of neighborhoods where we think he is hiding begins." Of course not, we say, "This is a photo of the murder suspect, his name is John Smith, if you provide information that leads to his arrest you will be rewarded with $1,000,000."

#2) In addition to monetary rewards, the people of Baltimore can be further motivated to search out and arrest this suspect by video pleas from the family and friends of the murder victims, begging for someone to make the call to give the tip to bring the suspect to trial. Documentaries can be made, showing how loving and caring the victim was, how many people the victim was helping every Sunday at the local community center. These interviews with the victim's family members, and the victim's friends, and the people who the victim helped, will of course show tear-provoking heart-touching accounts of the various ways in which the victim brought happiness and hope into many people's lives, and will of course encourage people sheltering the suspect to make that call to the authorities for justice.

#3) If you are really so impatient, that you can't wait for the money and the love to properly motivate the people of Baltimore to find the suspect, you can squeeze Baltimore in other ways which don't include violence. For example, the rest of the world can choose to ban Baltimore-made products until the suspect is found, which would slightly hurt the Baltimore economy, it would make the average Baltimore resident poorer, this is a form of force in itself, like America does to Cuba, but this banning of products would be far more moral than dropping BOMBS on Baltimore residents.

So folks, any other good ideas, about how to positively motivate people to do what you want (capture a suspect) WITHOUT using bombs, and WITHOUT threatening to use bombs?

 

[Steve Red]

Positive post, love it! I'm gonna' get back on the positive side of this issue.

Yeah, let's talk about how to positively motivate people to do what you want (capture a suspect) WITHOUT using bombs, and WITHOUT threatening to use bombs:

#1) How about offering big money REWARDS for capturing suspects for trials.
That's how it works within a country, when we are searching for a murder suspect, right? We don't say, "A serial killer is on the loose in Baltimore. Baltimore officials and residents: you must capture the suspect which we name or prepare to die. If Baltimore doesn't capture this suspect within one month, the bombing of neighborhoods where we think he is hiding begins." Of course not, we say, "This is a photo of the murder suspect, his name is John Smith, if you provide information that leads to his arrest you will be rewarded with $1,000,000."

#2) In addition to monetary rewards, the people of Baltimore can be further motivated to search out and arrest this suspect by video pleas from the family and friends of the murder victims, begging for someone to make the call to give the tip to bring the suspect to trial. Documentaries can be made, showing how loving and caring the victim was, how many people the victim was helping every Sunday at the local community center. These interviews with the victim's family members, and the victim's friends, and the people who the victim helped, will of course show tear-provoking heart-touching accounts of the various ways in which the victim brought happiness and hope into many people's lives, and will of course encourage people sheltering the suspect to make that call to the authorities for justice.

#3) If you are really so impatient, that you can't wait for the money and the love to properly motivate the people of Baltimore to find the suspect, you can squeeze Baltimore in other ways which don't include violence. For example, the rest of the world can choose to ban Baltimore-made products until the suspect is found, which would slightly hurt the Baltimore economy, it would make the average Baltimore resident poorer, this is a form of force in itself, like America does to Cuba, but this banning of products would be far more moral than dropping BOMBS on Baltimore residents.

So folks, any other good ideas, about how to positively motivate people to do what you want (capture a suspect) WITHOUT using bombs, and WITHOUT threatening to use bombs?

#4) In addition to properly high monetary motivation, plus the love motivation, plus the no-trade motivation (which barely makes it on the list since it's "stick" and not "carrot", but OK), here's another one for the list: heaven motivation. That's right, heaven motivation.

If the community happens to be Islamic, television time would be given to well-respected Clerics who would remind everyone that regardless of how much you may personally want to protect the suspect, the suspect must be turned in to the authorities, because: the suspect has broken the commandments of Allah, who told the world that only men IN YOUR COUNTRY who are killing people may be killed, and never women and children. So since this suspect is accused of killing INNOCENT men, women, and children, in a foreign country: if you are a good Islamic person who loves Allah, turn in the suspect to increase the chance of your getting into to heaven.

If the community happens to be Catholic or Christian, television time would be given to the Pope or well-respected Ministers who would remind everyone... (about the same as same as above) ...turn in the suspect to increase the chance of your getting into to heaven.

If the community happens to be Jewish, television time would be given to the well-respected Kohanim who would remind everyone... (about the same as above) ...turn in the suspect to increase the chance of your getting into to heaven.

And so on, and so on, (insert all other religions here), (insert all other religions' ultimate goals here). Even the non-religious people can be encouraged by the most-respected non-religious authorities (Dawkins? Hawkins? Oprah?) who will remind everyone that turning in the suspect will increase the chance of you (insert non-religious ultimate goal here) feeling good about yourself for the rest of your life.

So folks, any other good ideas, about how to POSITIVELY motivate people to do what you want?

 

[Steve Red]

Actually, I think this little thread, which was really just a big rant of mine, has run its course.

If there are no objections, I would like to suggest that maybe we lock it down and move on?