WHY Japanese often say BAKA?

[Hachiro]

Baka also has a positive meaning as well when you use "noun + baka".
Karate Baka means something like an ardent karate enthusiast

I wouldn't go so far as to say it has a positive meaning because many people are over enthusiastic to the detriment of others when they become something-baka.

For example tsuri-baka\釣り or fishing crazy/enthusiast their enthusiasm often times comes at a price that their world revolves around nothing else BUT that which they are -baka- in.

I'm guessing it's worse than kuso and chikushou.

These two terms are generally used as exclaimations and not directed towards another person.

However any of them could be offensive in the tone and delivery of the user. Just like saying s**t or f**k can be used as exclaimations in English as well. Yet if directed towards another person with the intent of cursing someone out there meanings change dramatically.

btw, question here, why is profanity in English filtered out here but not words that are considered profanity and not usually used in common speech in Japanese not filtered out? Profanity is profanity right, or is everything selective. I have heard that to some English users the word f**k is not that profane and is used in common language as an exclaimation, just as kuso or baka in Japanese. Things that make you go hmmmm.....

 

[Cue]

In Kansai, baka is much more offensive than is aho. Aho is almost friendly in Kansai, but leave the Kansai region, and use it at your own peril! I personally would much prefer to be called aho than baka.
Of course, even in Kansai the friend-vs-stranger rule applies!
But seriously, baka is pretty offensive in general. It's like calling someone an idiot or a fool. Of course in certain contexts it can be OK, and I suppose even endearing, but it's a word that I for one, don't much care for.

Oh my! Couldn't agree more!

Being a native Kansai-jin myself, I use "Aho" rather than "baka". If someone should say "Baka" to me, I'd get really mad. On the contrary, like Epigene-san mentioned above, Aho sounds offensive to people in and around Tokyo. I'm fully aware of that and always try to use it to Kanto people as few as possible.

kichigai refers to someone's mental state being crazy, insane, or schizophrenic, and is sometimes used amoungst friends but is generally offensive when used about someone else casually...

Kichigai is the one of the terms that gets censored on TV or the radio in Japan. Only word I use in a conversation is "Tora kichi"(short for Tora kichigai) to call myself; It means "A big fan of Tigers, crazy about Tigers".

Anyway, Ricecake, we may say "baka/aho" often but we do not mean to insult the other person nor to make him/her mad most of the time, mind you. Sometimes I even use "aho na!" as a kind of interjection myself and it's more like "Oh dang!" or "No way!"
And, yes, it can be an offensive word to Japanese but, as everyone has already stated above, it all depends on its context and how you say it, when to say it, how close you and the other person is and whatnot.

oh and lastly, yes you're right, Mikawa-san. "Chou/Cho" is a slang used more commonly in Tokyo and other parts of eastern Japan among younger people. In Osaka we say "Meccha", and I'm sure you know that.

Cue

 

[Ewok85]

btw, question here, why is profanity in English filtered out here but not words that are considered profanity and not usually used in common speech in Japanese not filtered out? Profanity is profanity right, or is everything selective. I have heard that to some English users the word f**k is not that profane and is used in common language as an exclaimation, just as kuso or baka in Japanese. Things that make you go hmmmm.....

Because profanities in English can offend some people, while the only Japanese words I have ever seen filtered or modified are words related to certain body parts (the 窶堙?word and the 窶堋ｿ-word for those who may know - and no, no guessing or posting it please).

 

[Glenn]

But that's does not mean the same. It is not about a lack of intelligence. They translate as "sh*t" or "crap", which are some of the most common (and childish) "bad words" in about all languages.

I knew I should have explained this when I posted it, because I figured someone would respond like this, but I was lazy.

I know that they don't mean the same thing, but that's irrelevant. I was comparing levels of offensiveness. For instance, the English words "c*nt," "****," "assh*le," and "d*ck" don't mean the same thing, but I would rate them in terms of offensiveness in the order I have them in above. The point was, if someone heard usunoro, kuso, and chikushou, which would they find most offensive? I guessed that it would be usunoro.

Also, I'm talking about hearing the words in isolation. If someone heard usunoro in isolation would they think that it was more offensive than either kuso or chikushou? That is, would their reaction be more strongly the "you shouldn't say that" than for the other two? That was my whole point.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

How did everyone go from a thread about "baka" to a thread about profanity?!

Anyway, I noticed it seems that in Japanese the most offensive words are insults. In English, and many other European tongues, they are mostly biological-oriented (sex/excrement/lineage). I dunno about proper French, but in Quebecois, the most offensive phrases are ones that profane the sacred. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Elizabeth]

Kichigai is the one of the terms that gets censored on TV or the radio in Japan. Only word I use in a conversation is "Tora kichi"(short for Tora kichigai) to call myself; It means "A big fan of Tigers, crazy about Tigers".

Aren't 窶ｹﾂｶ窶ｹC (kyouki) and 窶ｹﾂｶﾂ人 (Kyoujin) also on the ﾂ債ｷ窶｢ﾃ看津ｪl ? It seems more a matter here of political correctness and cultural standards than what is truly considered vulgar or defamatory. ☝
ﾂ

 

[Hachiro]

Kichigai is the one of the terms that gets censored on TV or the radio in Japan

Are you sure about that? As with all words that could have profane or deragatory meanings it all depends on the context of how it is used.

Because profanities in English can offend some people

If that is so, and since THIS is a forum about Japan with Japanese posters on it wouldn't it behoove the administrator's/moderator's here to modify or delete posts that contain words in Japanese that could be seen as offensive to the Japanese people here?

By only filtering out English profanities a double standard is being upheld. By default when people use a word that could be profane or used profanely in Japanese this board chooses to overlook and thus discriminate indirectly to words and phrases from other languages that could be offensive to some. Using the reply to my post as an example, not in a desire to start an arugment. People here are selective it what is considered "filterable" or otherwise.

Then again I dont think, at least to the Japanese people that I know, they dont get as hung up about expletives and profanity when viewed or spoken as what they are "words". They get upset or angered when they are directed towards themselves or someone.

 

[pipokun]

The online acronym DQN, for dokyun is probably the most offensive word I can think of in Japanese...
...for those keeping score.

You should wait for using the 2ch words/smilies in your life till they get popluar like Densha Otoko, Moe or whatever.

 

[leonmarino]

By only filtering out English profanities a double standard is being upheld.

I agree on this one. In many countries it is against the law to insult civil servants (police for example), so calling names at them would end up in a fine or worse. I often wondered what would happen if I used vulgar language that they do not understand, like Japanese. I am sure as they do not understand what it means you can get away with it. (Unless of course, they ask you the meaning and you're so naive to tell them what it means..)

So if a word is offensive or not seems to be dependent on the receiving end; if the listener understand what it is being said, and interprets it as an offense, the word may be labeled as offensive.

Now, this is a forum where there are also many Japanese speakers/readers, so one might think that also Japanese profanities should be censored. Moreover, there are also many people from many other countries, each with their own language. One might advocate censoring vulgar words in those languages too.

Apart from the technical difficulties, I oppose this way of thinking more fundamentally; censorship is useless and contradictory to the freedom of speech, and inhibits motivation to consider the reader's feelings.

I said earlier that the impact of a word is dependent on the receiving end. But it is also dependent on the communicator; what does the sender of the message mean with "f@ck", "baka" or "kanker"? ("Cancer" in Dutch, my earlier post in this thread might explain why people might use this word in an offensive way.) By just censoring these words posters are not encouraged think about the other's feeling or position in a sense that although the writer is forced to search for other words, the motivation is not intrinsic and censorship might cause reactant behaviour.

Wouldn't it be better if posters are free to write whatever they want, and if a post or certain words in it are offensive they are notified so by the responsible admins and other forum members?

I understand that very well that this is an English language-based forum, and for that reason only the English vulgarities are censored. Personally though, I think censorships do not solve the core of the problem, which is a rotten attitude and incompetence to take other people's feelings into account when communicating, be it in English, Japanese, Dutch or Swahili.

 

[Elizabeth]

Let's try to get this discussion back on track.....

First of all it's impractical to auto censor Japanese words in romaji. Secondly, they could always be rewritten in kana or kanji which apparently not enough admins are trained to read and correctly interpret.

Just tell the troublemakers directly and in person ふざける (from Zakennnayo) if anyone has a problem with this.

 

[Hachiro]

Let's try to get this discussion back on track.....

First of all it's impractical to auto censor Japanese words in romaji. Secondly, they could always be rewritten in kana or kanji which apparently not enough admins are trained to read and correctly interpret.

Just tell the troublemakers directly and in person 窶堙凪?堋ｴ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｩ (from Zakennnayo) if anyone has a problem with this.

Wait a minute here...whether the problem is technically feasible or not, the problem still remains that a double standard is being upheld. Whether or not the problem is with romaji, kana. or kanji, offensive words or posts that use potentially offensive ones should be modified or deleted.

That also includes threads similar to this that make a point out of the usage of a word that can be offensive to some people in the audience here.

There are enough Japanese members here that could be asked to join the positions of moderating posts in Japanese that Japanese people in general would find to be offensive.

If I started a thread asking if, for example, English people found the word f**k to be offensive or s**t to be offensive to American's people here would automatically expect the posts to be deleted or modified to correct the offensive term.

So to use your logic in this post, English users should be contacted directly and tell them that their posts are offensive right?

There is a standing discrimination here between the use of offensive words in English and Japanese, yet this is SUPPOSED to be a site about Japan correct? Why shouldn't the same standards not be upheld here with regards to Japanese as opposed to English?

I understand that very well that this is an English language-based forum, and for that reason only the English vulgarities are censored. Personally though, I think censorships do not solve the core of the problem, which is a rotten attitude and incompetence to take other people's feelings into account when communicating, be it in English, Japanese, Dutch or Swahili.

I agree with this as well, imo the admin/moderators here should be at the minimum more sensitive to Japanese.

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

窶敘凪?ｰﾃ?It is assumed that 窶ｰﾂｹﾅｽﾃ "fool" (窶堙寂?堋ｭ窶堋ｩ) of "baka" "moha" meaning "ignorance" and "delusion" in Sanskrit "窶｢ﾃ･窶ｰﾂｽ" (窶堙壺?堋ｩ) turned.
Than an etymology dictionary.
バカ／馬鹿／ばか - 語源由来辞典
"baka"
A use except a meaning of contempt.
It is used in Japanese in various ways.
1)"窶拵ﾅｽﾂｭ窶堙遺?忝"=A stupid guy
2)"窶拵ﾅｽﾂｭ窶堙?=(When I was astonished, I use it)
3)"ﾂ債｡窶愿ｺ窶堙梗B]窶拵ﾅｽﾂｭ[/B]窶堙可鞘?ｹ窶堋｢"=Today is very hot.(It is the meaning that is not normal)
4)"ﾆ値ﾆ淡窶堋ｪ窶拵ﾅｽﾂｭ窶堙俄?堙遺?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ"=A screw is not useful.(A ditch of a screw is estroyed)
5)"窶ｹﾃｳﾅｽﾃｨﾆ弛ﾆ谷"= He lacks social common sense because he gets absorbed in karate.
other....(It is impossible with my English ability)
窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ、窶氾債尽窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
6)"ﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙??堋｢窶堙銀?堋｢"ﾂ "ﾆ弛ﾆ谷ﾂ青ｳ窶卍ｼ"
7)"ﾅ津ｰ窶凖岩?敕ｯ窶堙?ﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢"
8)"窶｢@窶堋ｪﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ"
9)"ﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙?窶ｹx窶堙昶?ｹx窶堙昶?堙嫁陳ｾ窶堋ｦ"
10)"ﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｾ窶堋ｦ"
11)"ﾆ弛ﾆ谷窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙ｩ"
Than a dictionary
「馬鹿」で始まる言葉1ページ目 - goo国語辞書

 

[Elizabeth]

Whether or not the problem is with romaji, kana. or kanji, offensive words or posts that use potentially offensive ones should be modified or deleted.
That also includes threads similar to this that make a point out of the usage of a word that can be offensive to some people in the audience here.

They may be offended, whether more have complained than contributed I can't say, but rude/vulgar/insulting words do exist everywhere and looking at them analytically is a natural part of studying any foreign language and culture.

So I certainly would understand the need for uncensored English words on a Japanese forum about Americans or the West. How is anyone going to know what to be aware of, if and how they should react at their first encounter of these words if something has been completely supressed and deleted? In the same way, banning or altering them here cuts out a vital area of knowledge for many in the interests of a few hypothetical sensitivities.
In my personal opinion at least, no one here on this thread has been gratuitous or personal in their useage.

But obviously I don't read all the fora, so if anything has been overused for whatever reason somewhere on these boards please give us all the evidence, an opportunity to give our opinions and come up with a workable solution ....

 

[Tollen]

If I started a thread asking if, for example, English people found the word f**k to be offensive or s**t to be offensive to American's people here would automatically expect the posts to be deleted or modified to correct the offensive term.

why? that's jsut over censoring.... i mean as-long as the title is obviously asterixed and all then people can choose to enter the thread or not... as long as it's adult conversation (and not childish) about the topic thats has obviously interested several people and is an interesting cultural difference then whats the big problem???

we face far too much censorship in modern life to not be able to express our true opinions in a way that can be beneficial and educational for those people interested... i'm not saying i agree with constant swearing and just sheer annoyance threads throughout the forum lol but whats the harm in a little adult discussion about an intersting subject? if people don't want to read it , dont read it!!!

 

[Ewok85]

Japaese does not have swear words like English does, Hiroyuki posted a number of uses for the word baka that are common and are non-offensive. Its not the words that are offensive, its the use. I can say baka and noone would flinch, but if I say f**k, regardless of the context people are likely to find it offensive.

BTW, if you are basing the meaning of Japanese words and phrases on what you have seen in anime subs, stop now. Japanese terms such as baka, aho, usunoro, kuso, kichigai, don't give the same sharp reaction as words in English do.

 

[Hachiro]

why? that's jsut over censoring.... i mean as-long as the title is obviously asterixed and all then people can choose to enter the thread or not... as long as it's adult conversation (and not childish) about the topic thats has obviously interested several people and is an interesting cultural difference then whats the big problem???

See that is the point, if English words are getting censored out by the filter here then the same should be done for Japanese or any other language as well. Or none should be filtered at all. To do it for one and not the other is discriminatory, even if the words have multiple meanings. Japanese words that could offend Japanese people should also be **** out whether or not the readers can understand them or otherwise.

 

[Elizabeth]

Japaese does not have swear words like English does, Hiroyuki posted a number of uses for the word baka that are common and are non-offensive. Its not the words that are offensive, its the use. I can say baka and noone would flinch, but if I say f**k, regardless of the context people are likely to find it offensive.
BTW, if you are basing the meaning of Japanese words and phrases on what you have seen in anime subs, stop now. Japanese terms such as baka, aho, usunoro, kuso, kichigai, don't give the same sharp reaction as words in English do.

Technically I suppose most of the hardcore terms are broad enough to include at least one or two less objectionable English translations but just as one example I offered earlier with a smilie behind it, Zakennnayo, in most of its guises I'm guessing would equally obscene and distasteful to most Japanese members.

OK, one is enough....that's it for my profusion of nastiness for today...

 

[Elizabeth]

Are you sure about that? As with all words that could have profane or deragatory meanings it all depends on the context of how it is used.

I'm sure she is sure. I've heard the same myself even over here.

 

[Ewok85]

I just think that blocking words in Japanese (lets take baka since its the thread topic) makes about as much sense as blocking the word pussy in Japanese.

Imagine a thread about cute ***** cats when the word ***** is always being blocked out because ***** has more than one meaning, but its only the context that changes the meaning of *****.

And while I'm at it, heres an adorable picture of forementioned *****

 

[Maciamo]

Maybe you should look to see what it means in Japanese first.

Or maybe you should read my post more attentively. I was quoting "kuso" and chikoshou", not "usunoro" !

 

[Maciamo]

I knew I should have explained this when I posted it, because I figured someone would respond like this, but I was lazy.
I know that they don't mean the same thing, but that's irrelevant. I was comparing levels of offensiveness. For instance, the English words "c*nt," "****," "assh*le," and "d*ck" don't mean the same thing, but I would rate them in terms of offensiveness in the order I have them in above. The point was, if someone heard usunoro, kuso, and chikushou, which would they find most offensive? I guessed that it would be usunoro.
Also, I'm talking about hearing the words in isolation. If someone heard usunoro in isolation would they think that it was more offensive than either kuso or chikushou? That is, would their reaction be more strongly the "you shouldn't say that" than for the other two? That was my whole point.

If we have to consider all offensive terms in English, we are not talking about a few dozens, but a few hundreds, if not thousands. In Japanese it stays around the dozen, which was my point.

 

[Glenn]

That was your point in this post? It looked to me like you were just telling me that it's useless to compare usunoro with kuso and chikushou because they have different meanings. That's what I was replying to. It had nothing to do with English, or the amount of offensive words in either language.

 

[Hachiro]

I'm sure she is sure. I've heard the same myself even over here.

I hope you realize that you are contradicting yourself here. If you "heard" the same then the words were not censored out.

 

[Han Chan]

I find that the way the japanese use "baka" is very similar to the way the spanish speaking uses "loco".
The way it is understood all depends if you say it with a smile or if you show that you actually dislike the person you are talking to!
Don´t use "baka" when talking to people you are expected to be respectful towards, like: your boss or in-laws.

 

[Elizabeth]

I hope you realize that you are contradicting yourself here. If you "heard" the same then the words were not censored out.

No, of course I haven't been privy to the uncensored version. All I know is from reading secondhand that words like kichigai, kyouki and kyoujin were deleted from Japanese broadcasts, perhaps reflecting sensitivity to the stigma of "mad," "lunatic," "crazy" etc. to refer to someone as mentally unfit or unstable.