Who has been on the Japanese side of the web?

Mike Cash · 30 Jul 2006

kohlrak said:
You mean getting cut off the page? That's because most OSes are set to have infinite vertical scroll...

We may be suffering from generation gap here.

When I say "printed matter", I mean books, magazines, newspapers, etc.

Not stuff printed off the computer.

yukio_michael · 30 Jul 2006

Mike Cash said:
If you are referring to printed matter, my experience has been that it breaks at the bottom of the line with not the slightest regard for anything whatsoever. Middle of a sentence, middle of a mile-long kanji string, before/after particles....

This is my biggest difficulty with reading Japanese, lack of word-boundaries. I don't know how Japanese 'see' their language. Kanji & particles help break things apart visually, but even some reading assistance software I use have problems picking out the right word boundaries.

I imagine, I'm answering my own question here, but vocabulary and understanding of the prounciation of kanji & compounds goes a long way to helping you understand written Japanse, but still it'sasifwetypedallofoursentenceslikethis. Not very easy on the eyes.

kohlrak · 30 Jul 2006

Mike Cash said:
We may be suffering from generation gap here.

When I say "printed matter", I mean books, magazines, newspapers, etc.

Not stuff printed off the computer.

Even more is the gap for in computer language it means more than onto a sheet of paper. It could mean to the screen, to memory, to the disk... Many things.

bentenmusume · 30 Jul 2006

yukio_michael said:
This is my biggest difficulty with reading Japanese, lack of word-boundaries. I don't know how Japanese 'see' their language. Kanji & particles help break things apart visually, but even some reading assistance software I use have problems picking out the right word boundaries.
I imagine, I'm answering my own question here, but vocabulary and understanding of the prounciation of kanji & compounds goes a long way to helping you understand written Japanse, but still it'sasifwetypedallofoursentenceslikethis. Not very easy on the eyes.

I don't know how long you've been learning Japanese, or how much reading you've done, but I'd say that you just need more time and practice for your eyes to get used to it. I mean, I certainly don't read Japanese as effortlessly as a native speaker (nor as effortlessly as I read my native language), but the lack of boundaries or word breaks is something that hasn't bothered me in years.

In fact, after a while you don't even really notice it anymore -- it's just the way the language is written, and it's perfectly natural. In fact, occasionally (rarely) I'll come across Japanese written with spaces after words or phrases, and the effect is really quite jarring since it's so unusual.

kohlrak · 30 Jul 2006

I think i saw certain media with japanese with spaces... Until i joined here, i figured it to be interchangable. I, myself, have trouble with all the japanese crammed together, but i know myself that there must be a way to tell this. Lack of particles is the only real boundry that i can think of that this would become a major issue for. When you think about it, once you're used to the language itself the writing should be easy to read.

yukio_michael · 31 Jul 2006

jt_ said:
In fact, after a while you don't even really notice it anymore -- it's just the way the language is written, and it's perfectly natural. In fact, occasionally (rarely) I'll come across Japanese written with spaces after words or phrases, and the effect is really quite jarring since it's so unusual.

I have a rather elementary kanji learners notebook by the everpopular Showa Note （ショウワノート）, in which, the boundaries for words are clearly marked. It is a book for younger children, I might add. No real argument from me, but if it is as you say, 'perfectly natural', or not--- someone must have decided it was easier to learn to read initially with word boundaries than without.

The language is what it is, without word boundaries, but I'm curious as to if other people feel that the lack of boundaries presents/presented any significant hurdles for them. If there is a strategy for learning to read without word boundaries, I'd appreciate any advice.

TGO · 1 Aug 2006

It's just like the Chinese language, which has no spaces between words either.

epigene · 1 Aug 2006

yukio_michael said:
The language is what it is, without word boundaries, but I'm curious as to if other people feel that the lack of boundaries presents/presented any significant hurdles for them. If there is a strategy for learning to read without word boundaries, I'd appreciate any advice.

I think the only solution to this is reading practice covering common sentence structures in Japanese. Maybe, you're trying to make a big jump from your proficiency level to something that is read by native-speaking adults? (Just guessing... )

Another clue in understanding written Japanese is the use of 読点（とうてん）meaning the 、(Japanese counterpart to the comma). This is a very important marker in readability in Japanese writing. This is an issue that is important even among professional writers, since incorrect usage or non-use result in lack of clarity in meaning and can even be misleading.

That's about the only thing I can think of. Also, this is a script (and explanation of grammar point) from a Japanese educational program for elementary school students on this issue:
" + headertitle + "

Edit: The link doesn't go straight to the script, it seems. Please click 台本を読む and then proceed to the script titled 「てんでんばらばら」台本を見る . ぶんぽう教室 also gives the explanation.

WHEATTHlNS · 3 Aug 2006

I think the question was more along the lines, what "segment" of the internet do Japanese posters occupy. As CASH pointed out, Google.jp is a great place to start since it will return forums and what not in Japanese, rather than English forums with japanese topics (although Google will return japanese pages, alot are japanese exclusive talk, if that makes any sense).

Yes the internet is a whole, but most people really dont know how to access pages and whatnot that foreign speakers visit and post to.

I myself am interested in finding just some general purpose forums to post to, but that post only in japanese.

Personally, reading Japanse web pages, I don't think the language, one that was originally designed to be read down, from right to left, suits digital reproduction...[/uote]

Whole heartedly disagree. The japanese THEMSELVES have adopted the english format for producing text, and material outside of the internet - and theyve done really well. I like reading books in the traditional format, but reading them in the "english" format is also enjoyable because its how we're most used to reading text (and it makes the beginning stages of learning easier).

And Gaijin - you are coming off as a MAJOR SPAZZ man; seriously - chill.

I don't know how Japanese 'see' their language.

Click to expand...

I think alot of this just comes from recognition. For example:

Ithinkalotofthisjustcomesfromrecognition. To a non-native, that would be one long word, and theyd have NO CLUE on what was going on here. But to you and me, we automatically know what that says, just because we recognize where words end and begin, and instinctively know what kind of "rules" our word structures use for words. For them its perhaps knowing when a vowel sound or a particle is part of a word or actally being used as a particle, or how to form present/past tenses and their combinations and recognizing where those end.

I, myself, have trouble with all the japanese crammed together, but i know myself that there must be a way to tell this.

Click to expand...

Which is weird, because I think if this was a problem, than the up-down is much easier (well not to me at least) than the left-right.

Who has been on the Japanese side of the web?

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

yukio_michael

後輩

kohlrak

Guest

bentenmusume

原点回帰

kohlrak

Guest

yukio_michael

後輩

TGO

後輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

WHEATTHlNS

None Of Your Business

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