Where are all the polite Japanese?

[thistle]

This may only be something which is happening in Okinawa , but it seems the
ever so polite japanese people are slowly decreasing. While in a large Department store today, I was almost knocked over, and had people push by
me to get to the next aisle. There was NOT a sale on! Nobody said 'sumimasen' or 'gomenasai'.
Then later while sitting in a ramen shop at the counter a youngish girl suddenly sat down on the seat next to me also brushing into me without saying a word.
These are all situations where I would have said to the other person 'excuse me', and it is something I have probably learnt to do well here in Japan.
☝ Wondering what is happening to Japanese society, where have all the wonderfully polite gone?

 

[craftsman]

Strangely in the Mainichi today was an article about the results of a poll held by 16 major private railway operators on people's behaviour on trains.

It asked if people's manners have improved on trains. 77% did not agree and 31 percent of these said passengers' manners have worsened.

Looks like it's not just in Okinawa.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Depends on the situation I find. In general public, when they're not around people they know, I find Japanese a little more rude than people back home in Australia. Just stuff like not holding doors open for people, rushing get off the train etc. But around people they know, I find Japanese to be really polite, and really welcoming.

 

[MoBay]

The Japanese are probably wising up to the fact that Gaijins don't really appreciate their kindess.

 

[Mike Cash]

You've bought into the myth of Japanese politeness.

A coworker, who had been in Japan only a very short while, had what I consider the wisest and most insightful observation on Japanese politeness I have ever heard. He said:

"The Japanese are polite in their socks."

Think about it, and you'll realize it's true.

 

[Pachipro]

I have found the Japanese to be no more polite than here in the US, especially when out in public. But as Mike so eloquently quoted his co-worker, they are awfully polite in their socks - sometimes to the point of being nauseating at times. Since it is what they are "supposed" to do in certain situations, one can always tell when a Japanese is being polite just for the sake of being polite and doesn't really mean it from the heart.

 

[taeter_tot]

"The Japanese are polite in their socks." Think about it, and you'll realize it's true.

learned something new today haha

 

[jellyfisu]

I wonder why they're all changing like that. That's not nice.

Most outsiders think of the Japanese as very polite people, but I guess all that politeness is a bit calculated. Polite in their socks, yes. But outside them, well, I dunno exactly. ^^

 

[Elizabeth]

I have found the Japanese to be no more polite than here in the US, especially when out in public. But as Mike so eloquently quoted his co-worker, they are awfully polite in their socks - sometimes to the point of being nauseating at times. Since it is what they are "supposed" to do in certain situations, one can always tell when a Japanese is being polite just for the sake of being polite and doesn't really mean it from the heart.

I don't care if the politeness isn't designed to be overt, behavior that is generally restrained, tactful and undisturbing of a stranger's space is such a simple normality that the rest of the world seems to have forgotten.

They are also more courteous and friendly in public, though....

 

[ArmandV]

I'd rather encounter someone who's phoney polite than overtly obnoxious.

 

[thistle]

Here in Okinawa, generally speaking I found japanese less polite than on the mainland, especially on the roads. It was one of the culture shocks I had when I came here. Although I found people on the mainland over polite at times, especially in the Department stores, and other public places.

I feel like they are losing their manners though. In any country if you bump into someone, normally you would say 'excuse me'. Yesterday these people looked at me, as if to say, you are a foreigner, why should I bother.
It unnerved me a little though and wondered if it was just this little corner of the world or it was happening everywhere.

 

[undrentide]

I'm not sure about your case, thisle, but this rudeness some people show is not something specifically targetted to foreigners. Because I come across many who bump into me or tread on my foot and say nothing - some of them even glare at me as if it is my fault!
I don't know where it comes from because it does not seem to have anything to do with generation. There are many polite and kind young people and very rude middle-aged or elderly people whose rudeness makes me very cross. (Of course there are rude young people and polite elderly people as well.)

 

[doinkies]

I suppose it has to do with the person's upbringing and whether the person's parents taught them proper manners or not.

 

[Mrjones]

After being here I really think politeness is just universal and depends on person rather than race. Actually what depends on race anyways!
Before I left to Japan my grandmothers advice was: Remember to be polite and nice there becouse Japanese people are so polite. I could only amazing the amount of culture shock and anger she would be having after her arrival to Japan.

The thing is older generation people are polite, younger generation people are exact oposite, based on my experience. They avoid also responsibility as much as possible and thus arent very helpful to other people. Gaijiness has nothing to do with this I think.

 

[JimmySeal]

After being here I really think politeness is just universal and depends on person rather than race. Actually what depends on race anyways!

The general belief is that politeness in Japan is culture-dependant, not race-dependant.

As to whether the politeness recieved in Japan is different for a foreigner, that's a matter to be debated, but foreign-looking people are undeniably treated differently in some ways by many Japanese people.

 

[Pachipro]

I don't care if the politeness isn't designed to be overt, behavior that is generally restrained, tactful and undisturbing of a stranger's space is such a simple normality that the rest of the world seems to have forgotten.

I'd rather encounter someone who's phoney polite than overtly obnoxious.

You are both correct and their politness does have it's place. What I somewhat disliked (maybe because I was always taught to speak or show your true feelings) is that, after living there for a while, you just know there are some people who don't really like you, like a neighbor or the friend of a friend. They are as polite as possible to you on the outside and you "just know" that inside they are just cursing you, or wish you weren't there, or would rather not have anything to do with you, but because of the culture they are forced to be polite. And in return I am just as polite as they. Call it an intuition or something, but after a while you can begin to pick up on it and you learn how to play the game.

Also, it can be fun watching housewives be overtly polite to each other when meeting in the supermarket or at a bus stop to pick up their kids, or at work between collegues, when you KNOW that, through the office and neighborly gossip mill, that Mrs A really doesn't like Mrs B, or that Mr A dislikes Mr B because of the school he graduated from or the way he talks or dresses, etc. It's a real study in culture as I was, in the US, used to just ignoring people I disliked and the feeling was usually mutual.

And, if nothing else, living in Japan has taught me one thing, Always be polite to everyone, even those you dislike and to accept politness, even if it's not sincere, from everyone, especially those you know dislike you. It helps keep the peace and lessens the tension.

 

[Elizabeth]

Here in Okinawa, generally speaking I found japanese less polite than on the mainland, especially on the roads.

That is interesting and I have heard it from other foreigners living or stationed on the island. Do you still have the saying "Once we have talked, we are friends" ?

I've never been there, but clearly the culture seems in another way so friendly and relaxed and easy-going that it would be easy to lose a sense of boundaries separating yourself, your real family and friends and the general outsider.
When everyone starts acting like your children or relatives you must know there is a problem. Or could be the history of US military or Chinese occupation too...

 

[Elizabeth]

You are both correct and their politness does have it's place. What I somewhat disliked (maybe because I was always taught to speak or show your true feelings) is that, after living there for a while, you just know there are some people who don't really like you, like a neighbor or the friend of a friend. They are as polite as possible to you on the outside and you "just know" that inside they are just cursing you, or wish you weren't there, or would rather not have anything to do with you, but because of the culture they are forced to be polite.

I don't object quite as much if it is kept firmly on the inside, but when those feelings based on very minor prejudices start to seep into their tone of voice and facial expressions it becomes almost unbearably irritating.

Although I'm proud to say I haven't completely lost my composure yet, even when I'm bumped into, the offender suddenly realizes it's a Westerner, breezes past with a very quick, dirty and very insincere "Oh, sorry" in English like they are only brushing up on the phrase then can't get away fast enough. You're very fortunate, thistle, to apparently hear "sumimasen" or "gomennasai" more on Okinawa more than Tokyo.

 

[Pachipro]

I don't object quite as much if it is kept firmly on the inside, but when those feelings based on very minor prejudices start to seep into their tone of voice and facial expressions it becomes almost unbearably irritating.

You hit the nail on the head. I wanted to mention the "tone of voice". Knowing the little nuances of the language, and when "polite" speech and certain verb endings are used and not used, etc, the tone and verb endings one uses towards you can be a little irritating and then you KNOW what they truely feel.

Can the Japanese also sense it? Yes they can:

While living there and still somewhat new to the subtleties of the language, a friend of a friend called me one night just to say hi. I could tell she got a little miffed at me and I couldn't understand why she asked me a few times if I was angry with her or didn't like her. I didn't think I said anything wrong. The conversation ended sooner than I expected.

Afterwards, she told my friend that she thought I was being "smart" with here and didn't really care for her as a friend. It was only after my friend explained that I was using formal instead of informal speech, like ending verbs with -masu and saying desu instead of da, etc. Since I had known her a while, I was expected to use informal speech with her.

I didn't know the difference at the time and I apologized to her later on when we met. It was then that I understood a little bit more as to who to use polite speech with and who not to, and when! It was a good lesson!

 

[Mrjones]

"The general belief is that politeness in Japan is culture-dependant, not race-dependant."

Well in my fair opinion that general belief is a myth... or long lost truth.

 

[thistle]

I think, Enrentide, you are right, this rudeness shown by some people is not
specifically towards foreigners, I notice japanese people are not particularly polite between each other in those situations either.

I also think this 'false politeness' is found less here in Okinawa, which is why it may have been harder to get to know and make friends with locals when I came here, all my friends were from Kyushu .
And Elizabeth, I believe they do still have that saying here 'ONce we have talked we are friends', how did you kow that?
Okinawans are more shy than mainland japanese, but once you have become friends I think you will have a friend for life.

 

[Mrjones]

--------wrong thread------------

 

[thistle]

--------wrong thread------------

Were you talking to me? are you a moderator now?

 

[Mrjones]

No I am not, I posted wrong thread myself

 

[Ninja Shinichi]

I have free time now and talk about how ninja is politeness. Most imagine of ninja very cruelty person. This truth but not completely truth. Most ninja also have softly parts of heart. For example, good ninja always open door for old peoples. Ninja also not very use swearing languages because not polite.

Sometime ninja attack by secrecy methods. But sometime not secrecy method and have chatting time with opponent before begins the fighting. Chatting topics sometime family, sometime free time hobby, sometime news chatting and etcetera. After conclude the chatting then ninja bow and exchange business card and then fighting. Very politness and traditional way for fighting.

Ninja is politness also when travel. If travel by train, ninja not take seat if peoples standing. Ninja also not use of hand phone on train because annoy to other peoples. When ninja hitchiking always offering of money for gasolines charges. Very politeness.