What's the difference between racism and xenophobia?

[fsuman110]

Matthew C. Perry - It is quite possible that my professors have been teaching things in a misleading way. I am always learning more about the subject and truly appreciate your input. I hope that my last post didn't sound condescending or anything, it was very late when I typed it and I was quite tired. But it was in no way meant as a stab at you, it's just that I have some strict personal reservations about calling one race smarter than another. However, in reading the information you have provided, I will not be so closed-minded as to believe this to be an impossibility. Like Glenn, it seems that I just need to learn more on the subject.

Glenn, again I apologize for assuming.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Originally posted by fsuman110
This is very important as it explains why Blacks tend to score poorly. Blacks are educated in a White-dominated society, which has proven to be very problematic. Generally speaking, member of other ethnic groups naturally have different ways of learning and must be taught differently in order to learn effectively.

African Americans are the richest, most well educated large population of blacks in the world. And their average 85 IQ surpasses that of any African or black Carribean nation. Slavery was horrible, but as it turns out, black Americans have not been hindered by living in a white dominated society. On the contrary, they have benifited.

Have you read the questions on some of these bias-free IQ exams? I have, and they are certainly far from bias-free. For example, in an IQ test given in a High School in Miami, Florida last year (keep in mind the high Hispanic population in Miami) there was a question regarding tobogganing.

You can cherry pick and occasionally find a question that seems odd. But as a rule, the tests are not culturally biased.

This may or may not be relevant, but did you notice that among the 50 or so "experts" only 1 of them appears to have a degree above a bachelors.

As far as I know, they are all PhDs. Some of them are famous scholars.

Are you familiar with Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences?

Yes, somewhat. He includes musical and athletic ability as part of "intelligence" doesn't he? Seems a bit of a stretch, but it is interesting.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Originally posted by fsuman110
I hope that my last post didn't sound condescending or anything...

No, not at all.

 

[Golgo_13]

The Island nation of Barbados in the Carribean, which is predominantly black populated, has an average SAT score among their high school graduates higher than the average score of those in the U.S.

Please explain why.

 

[bossel]

Originally posted by Matthew C. Perry
Yes. If you adjust for income and education level the gap decreases. This is stated in "The Bell Curve". But a large gap remains, and we don't know if income is more a cause of IQ level or a result. The latter seems more likely.

I think, what I meant is not covered in "The Bell Curve". This is the study I thought of:
http://www.northwestern.edu/univ-relations/media/news-releases/*archives/*soc-policy/duncan.html
Excerpt:
"As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone, the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether."

Sorry, I wanted to post it yesterday but couldn't find the link.
You have of course to be careful with all these studies for you never know the agenda behind, but I think this study bears at least some value.

Not necessarily, Jews are part of the caucasoid group, but they are a fairly distinct line, having married mostly within their tribe for the past 2000-4000 years.

This is not entirely true, I think. Due to the diaspora there are a lot of different genes in Jewish blood, they are not a very homogeneous group. I've found only a comparison of Y-chromosome haplogroup frequency in selected 72 eurasian populations, but I think, this already shows the heterogenity:
From Sephardic Jews to Ashkenazi Jews we have a genetic distance of 27, in between we find Italian(18), Turkish (20), Ossetian (20), Kurdish Jews (22), Greek (24), Muslim Kurds (24), Armenian (26), Cypriot (26).

Re Latinos: Sorry, my fault. When I think of Latinos, I always have the Mediterraneans in mind.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Originally posted by Golgo_13
The Island nation of Barbados in the Carribean, which is predominantly black populated, has an average SAT score among their high school graduates higher than the average score of those in the U.S.

Please explain why.

...because very few people are taking the SAT in Barbados. Only those who were good enough students to get into top high schools in the first place, and with the means and ambition to attend American universities. In America, depending on the state, MOST kids will take the SAT. If only the best students in America took the SAT, the average would be much higher.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Originally posted by bossel
I think, what I meant is not covered in "The Bell Curve". This is the study I thought of:
http://www.northwestern.edu/univ-relations/media/news-releases/*archives/*soc-policy/duncan.html
Excerpt:
"As in many other studies, the black children in the study had IQ scores a full 15 points lower than their white counterparts. Poverty alone, the researchers found, accounted for 52 percent of that difference, cutting it to 7 points. Controlling for the children's home environment reduced the difference by another 28 percent, to a statistically insignificant 3 points -- in essence, eliminating the gap altogether."

Poverty might lower IQs, but having a low IQ certainly makes it more likely that you will be poor. Bad parents might lower kid's IQs, but plenty of smart people are born into bad families, and being smart can certainly help make someone a good parent. Genes and environment are both factors in intelligence, and their effects are interwoven. It is hard to say which is more important, but it is clear that both play a role.

This is not entirely true, I think. Due to the diaspora there are a lot of different genes in Jewish blood, they are not a very homogeneous group.

Yes. The Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are fairly separate. It is the Ashkenazi group which has the high IQs, probably because they tended to be scholars, merchants and bankers. Their success was much more dependant on brainpower than the farming gentile majority they lived among. A smart European Jew could have lots of children while a dull one might not have any.

 

[Keeni84]

You know, I am so sick and tired of this. Black people are stupid...low intelligence...purge on society...blah blah blah. I don't even know why I even bother to get a good education and to become a doctor, because everyone knows I am retarded anyway.

Whatever. With my 85 IQ I'll probably fail out of PT school because everyone knows that whites are smarter than me anyway, and I'll always end up under the curve (if I don't lower it of course, with my bad grades on the exams and practicals).

And you know what? I think I should go talk to my professors, because my A in Chemistry can't be right, can it? I mean, as an average black, I can't possibly score well on a Chemistry exam, or do well in a Chemistry class!

You guys make me sick. Why should I even listen to someone who believes in the "congnitive elite". That's a lose-lose situation, surely!

Anyway, I still love ya'll, especially you, Perry

BUT BACK TO THE TOPIC

I believe Xenophobia and racism to be different. Xenophobia is the fear of "outsiders" or strangers to your country. It even applies to people who may be of your country, but are recent immigrants. Racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. It's different.

I think the Japanese may be Xenophobic in general but racist in particular instances. Like that mayor of Tokyo. He's racist, plain and simple. However, the person with the sign up on the door with "no foreigners" is more thank likely xenophobic.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Whatever. With my 85 IQ I'll probably fail out of PT school because everyone knows that whites are smarter than me anyway, and I'll always end up under the curve (if I don't lower it of course, with my bad grades on the exams and practicals).

And you know what? I think I should go talk to my professors, because my A in Chemistry can't be right, can it? I mean, as an average black, I can't possibly score well on a Chemistry exam, or do well in a Chemistry class!

Have you ever taken an IQ test? I seriously doubt that your IQ is 85. It would be pretty tough to get an A in a college level chemisty course with an IQ that low. In any case, there is no reason to assume that your own IQ is equal to the average for African Americans, or that white people are smarter than you are. No individual's abilities can be predicted from group averages.

You guys make me sick. Why should I even listen to someone who believes in the "congnitive elite". That's a lose-lose situation, surely!

Obviously some people are smarter than others, and a small number of people are much smarter than average. "Cognitive elite" is just a term to describe these people.

 

[TwistedMac]

oh sorry, i forgot to mention that of course i do not think that all japanese are this way, or even the majority for that matter. as the saying goes, " it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone"

isn't the saying "it only takes one rotten apple to ruin the whole bunch" or sumfing?

but yeah, shutting you out of a store because of your nationality is racism.. not extremely bad (like burning someones house or crusifying them because their black while wearing white robes) but still racism..

i don't think it's unjustified tho.. foreigners can (and will) ruin a countries traditions and culture..

hmm.. maybe ruin is a bad word.. "change" is better.. but changing it is the same as ruining to some people..

once i get to japan i'll be prepared to take all the crap they decide to fling at me.. good things always have bad attached to them.. we're just gonna have to stand that.

I live in the third largest city in my country, and we've always been taught that immigrants are basically BETTER people than us.. if WE look down on them WERE racists and if THEY look down on US thats to be expected...

now my city has more immigrant citizens than swedish... a bit of the ol' japanese thining wouldnt hurt here... instead it has made people hate (HATE!)immigrants and all sorts of people have been drawn into neo-nazi communities.

lose-lose

 

[Keeni84]

Have you ever taken an IQ test? I seriously doubt that your IQ is 85. It would be pretty tough to get an A in a college level chemisty course with an IQ that low. In any case, there is no reason to assume that your own IQ is equal to the average for African Americans, or that white people are smarter than you are. No individual's abilities can be predicted from group averages.




Obviously some people are smarter than others, and a small number of people are much smarter than average. "Cognitive elite" is just a term to describe these people.

Yeah, but just the fact that you call them the cognitive elite is just silly. Elitism in itself is just plain pointless as well, but I suppose we will always have it, because there is always someone trying to be on top. I have taken an IQ test before. My IQ (based on the IQ test) is 126. HOWEVER, I don't really care, because it doesn't say anything about me. Not a thing. Well, maybe how well I take the IQ test, but that's it.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

My IQ (based on the IQ test) is 126. HOWEVER, I don't really care, because it doesn't say anything about me. Not a thing. Well, maybe how well I take the IQ test, but that's it.

Keeni, we don't know percisely what IQ measures, but we do know that children with high IQs tend to graduate from college at a higher rate, and earn more money later in life than low IQ siblings born into the same familes.

The biology of how the brain works is not well understood yet, but my guess is that science will eventually confirm what common sense dictates. People vary in all sorts of ways, some are taller, more muscular, have better eyesight, etc. etc. Why should brains be any different? Some people's brains just work better than other people's. And IQ tests are at least a crude measure of this variance in brain function.

 

[bossel]

we do know that children with high IQs tend to graduate from college at a higher rate, and earn more money later in life than low IQ siblings born into the same familes.

It's not as simple as you picture it here, high IQ may even be the reason for failure in life. I found an interesting article regarding the correlation of high IQ & mental problems:

http://www.prometheussociety.org/articles/Outsiders.html
Excerpt:
"One of the problems faced by all gifted persons is learning to focus their efforts for prolonged periods of time. Since so much comes easily to them, they may never acquire the self-discipline necessary to use their gifts to the fullest."

While surfing the net on search for IQ related stuff, I also found these 2:
THRIVEnet - Darwinistic Elitism is Idiotic
Excerpt:
"Unpleasant Fact #3: Honest talk about IQ would expose some deeply personal inconsistencies among our most influential thinkers. Although the typical white intellectual claims he wants to censor discussion of IQ to shield black self-esteem, his sometimes-berserk reactions reveal that he finds it a peril to his own. The typical white intellectual considers himself superior to ordinary white people for two contradictory reasons: a] he constantly proclaims belief in human equality, but they don't; b] he has a high IQ, but they don't."

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/iq.htm
"Darwinistic Elitism is Idiotic" by Al Siebert
Just some general stuff about IQ tests & criticism of the "Bell Curve".
Excerpt:
"They advocate that because "people in the underclass are in that condition through no fault of their own but because of inherent shortcomings about which little can be done...." and "a significant part of the population must be made permanent wards of the state.""
If these are really quotes from the "Bell Curve" the book is actually worse than I thought.

Some people's brains just work better than other people's. And IQ tests are at least a crude measure of this variance in brain function.

IQ tests are only good for scientific research, but almost completely useless in everyday life.
They may be useful as part of a hiring test, but only for very few occupations. Most jobs need abilities that aren't measured by IQ tests or at least much better measured by specific job-related tests.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

It's not as simple as you picture it here, high IQ may even be the reason for failure in life. I found an interesting article regarding the correlation of high IQ & mental problems:

I'm not claiming that high IQ people are always successful. And I don't doubt that there are many cases of individuals with high IQs who had mental problems. All I'm saying is that there is a TREND is toward greater achievment with higer IQs.

"Unpleasant Fact #3: Honest talk about IQ would expose some deeply personal inconsistencies among our most influential thinkers. Although the typical white intellectual claims he wants to censor discussion of IQ to shield black self-esteem, his sometimes-berserk reactions reveal that he finds it a peril to his own. The typical white intellectual considers himself superior to ordinary white people for two contradictory reasons: a] he constantly proclaims belief in human equality, but they don't; b] he has a high IQ, but they don't."

No doubt... this typical line of thinking taken by Western intellectuals is quite hypocritical.

"Darwinistic Elitism is Idiotic" by Al Siebert
Just some general stuff about IQ tests & criticism of the "Bell Curve".
Excerpt:
"They advocate that because "people in the underclass are in that condition through no fault of their own but because of inherent shortcomings about which little can be done...." and "a significant part of the population must be made permanent wards of the state.""
If these are really quotes from the "Bell Curve" the book is actually worse than I thought.

Well, if you accept the reality of a low IQ underclass, what then do you propose doing with them? If people can't fend for themselves in an increasingly high tech society, then they must be cared for by the state. What other option is there?

IQ tests are only good for scientific research, but almost completely useless in everyday life.
They may be useful as part of a hiring test, but only for very few occupations. Most jobs need abilities that aren't measured by IQ tests or at least much better measured by specific job-related tests.

If IQ is measuring brain function, and I think it is, then it is measuring something that is important in almost all aspects of life. Sure, there are jobs that don't require a high IQ, but I think the trend is toward an increase in jobs that are mentally demanding.

 

[bossel]

Well, if you accept the reality of a low IQ underclass, what then do you propose doing with them? If people can't fend for themselves in an increasingly high tech society, then they must be cared for by the state. What other option is there?

I don't "accept the reality of a low IQ underclass", esp. none where this is based on race. People of all races vary greatly in their cognitive abilities. The differences in IQ are gradual, there is no clear line to draw.
Apart from some special cases of mentally handicapped people I can't see any reason to have somebody "cared for by the state." To me, this very much sounds like socialist babble: "We know what is best for the un-educated masses, give our soviets full control of society & everything will be fine!"

If IQ is measuring brain function, and I think it is, then it is measuring something that is important in almost all aspects of life.

That's a misconception. IQ tests do not measure brain function in general. They measure certain (by far not all) cognitive abilities. The significance is limited to these particular abilities.

As you said there is a certain tendency for people with higher IQ to get better jobs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of them are better suited for all these jobs. It is very well possible that someone with a lower IQ (or education) would fare better in a job, but for reasons of intellectual snobbism those with higher IQ (or education) are preferred.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

I don't "accept the reality of a low IQ underclass", esp. none where this is based on race.

I'm not saying that it is based on race. It isn't anyone's race that causes them to have a low IQ. And of course there are people of all races with low IQs.

People of all races vary greatly in their cognitive abilities. The differences in IQ are gradual, there is no clear line to draw.

Yes, of course.

Apart from some special cases of mentally handicapped people I can't see any reason to have somebody "cared for by the state."

Doesn't this contradict what you just said about there being "no clear line to draw? You were right the first time. There are people with low IQs who have obvious handicaps, and there are others who appear normal until a test reveals that they have an IQ of 73. The ghettos are filled with such people. And they are the reason we need extra police, social workers, and all the other sorts of outreach programs. These people might not need as much help as someone who suffers Downs Syndrome does, but they do need help. Otherwise, American cities begin to look like Haiti.

That's a misconception. IQ tests do not measure brain function in general. They measure certain (by far not all) cognitive abilities. The significance is limited to these particular abilities.

We don't really know what they measure, but yes, it seems reasonable to think that they measure aspects of brain function that relate to cognitive abilities. I didn't claim otherwise.

As you said there is a certain tendency for people with higher IQ to get better jobs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of them are better suited for all these jobs.

For some boring, repetitive sorts of jobs, a duller person might be a better fit. But the percentage of these sorts of jobs in the workplace is going down, at least in areas like manufacturing and farming. And it's getting harder and harder to make a decent living at jobs that don't require much thinking ability.

 

[bossel]

Doesn't this contradict what you just said about there being "no clear line to draw?

Sorry, probably my mistake: mistranslation. The German "geistig behindert" to me means an illness, the translator I use gave it as "mentally handicapped". Maybe "mental retardation" is a better term, from Error 404 | Not Found:

"Mental retardation refers to substantial limitations in present functioning. It is characterized by significantly subaverage intellectual functioning, existing concurrently with related limitations in two or more of the following applicable adaptive skill areas: communication, self-care, home living, social skills, community use, self-direction, health and safety, functional academics, leisure, and work. Mental retardation manifests before age 18"

It seems the old definition of mental retardation was really based on IQ, but I think they recognized the limitations & fallacies of that definition, therefore since 1992 we have the modern definition. A low IQ in itself is not the same as being mentally retarded. Nowadays IQ is only used as part of the classification system of mental retardation.

There are people with low IQs who have obvious handicaps, and there are others who appear normal until a test reveals that they have an IQ of 73. The ghettos are filled with such people. And they are the reason we need extra police, social workers, and all the other sorts of outreach programs. These people might not need as much help as someone who suffers Downs Syndrome does, but they do need help. Otherwise, American cities begin to look like Haiti.

Extra police for reasons of lower IQ levels? Reasoning based on Haiti?
Haiti is actually a very good example of a dysfunctional education system (apart from other dysfunctional systems there). You can't blame the mentally retarded or handicapped for the condition of this particular society.
The ghettos you mentioned are not a very good example either. Where are these ghettos in Europe. With the exception of some French suburbs there are almost none. Ghettos are a sign of a malfunction in society. More police or social workers won't make ghettos disappear.

For some boring, repetitive sorts of jobs, a duller person might be a better fit.

I don't know where you live & how you define it, but IMO most jobs are boring & repetitive.
Apart from that, there are lots of jobs even people with an IQ lower than 80 could fulfill, if trained properly. Although I have to agree that for some of these jobs a special training would be needed.
Modern technology can make it even easier to integrate mentally retarded or handicapped into the work force.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Extra police for reasons of lower IQ levels?

There is probably some relationship between low IQ and criminality. Of course there are smart criminals, and most low IQ individuals do not turn to crime, but convicted criminals, as a group, have IQs that are substantially below average, at least in America. I think it probably has to do with lower brain function leading to generally poor decision making, and sometimes to criminality.

Reasoning based on Haiti?
Haiti is actually a very good example of a dysfunctional education system (apart from other dysfunctional systems there). You can't blame the mentally retarded or handicapped for the condition of this particular society.

Haiti has an average IQ of 72, which means that the majority of the country is borderline retarded by developed world standards. Haiti has no public educational system, and is 60-70% illiterate primarily because it has so few people who are smart enough to organize schools and teach, or even recognize the importance of such activities. And it doesn't help that many of Haiti's more capable individuals emmigrate to greener pastures.

The ghettos you mentioned are not a very good example either. Where are these ghettos in Europe. With the exception of some French suburbs there are almost none. Ghettos are a sign of a malfunction in society. More police or social workers won't make ghettos disappear.

I agree that they are a sign of malfunction. Police and social workers can only make the situation marginally better, but that may be the best that anyone can do. Government could spend a few hundred billion dollars, tear down all the slums and buy every resident a house in the suburbs. But I'm afraid the whole scenario would just begin again.

I don't know where you live & how you define it, but IMO most jobs are boring & repetitive.
Apart from that, there are lots of jobs even people with an IQ lower than 80 could fulfill, if trained properly. Although I have to agree that for some of these jobs a special training would be needed.
Modern technology can make it even easier to integrate mentally retarded or handicapped into the work force.

I am an American living in Japan, living the somewhat boring repetitive life of an English teacher. It sure beats factory work though. I agree that lower IQ people can be trained to do many jobs, and that government should make the effort to see that this happens.

 

[TwistedMac]

*ding ding* in the red corner, weighing in at 85kg... wearing a plaid jacket and mocka shoes... PERRY!

and in this corner, weighing a whopping 8kg, being a frog... BOSSEL!!!


LET'S GET READY TO RUMMMMMMBLE!!!!!!

 

[Keeni84]

*ding ding* in the red corner, weighing in at 85kg... wearing a plaid jacket and mocka shoes... PERRY!

How clever.


Anyway, I believe that IQ has much more to do with environment than actual brain power. You look at most people that have low IQ's. They aren't among the rich, are they? They don't make up the middle class. Most people with low IQ's are predominately in the lower classes (both economically and socially). Now isn't that an interesting trend?

I mean, look at this. You have three people. The first person is a WASP man, whose parents are in the upper middle class, and who was sent to private school all his life. The second person is a Chinese woman, who grew up in a middle class suburb in the Midwest. The last person is a Hispanic man, whose second language is English, and who grew up in the ghetto his whole life and completed only high school.

Who is going to get the highest score on the IQ test? I can tell you right now that it's not going to be the Hispanic dude.

I mean, the IQ test measures whatever intelligence that person has in that specific moment based on that IQ test, anyway.

 

[bossel]

weighing a whopping 8kg, being a frog... BOSSEL!!!

8 kg? Hey, I'm not that fat! I'm just a common European Tree Frog.

 

[bossel]

convicted criminals, as a group, have IQs that are substantially below average

Maybe more of them get caught for being not smart enough to outrun justice?
Anyway, just because a higher percentage of criminals have a low IQ that doesn't mean that low IQ is the cause of being/becoming criminal. As you mentioned, a large part of the low-IQ-population is poor. Poverty is one of the many reasons why people may become criminal.

Haiti has an average IQ of 72, which means that the majority of the country is borderline retarded by developed world standards. Haiti has no public educational system,

If there is no public educational system, it seems more logical to me to say that this is the reason for such a low IQ average.
Besides, this sounds a bit like "G-Factor" (Brand AKA Crispian, wasn't it?), I find it rather doubtful to compare complete nations on basis of one standard set of questions. Very few IQ tests are really devised independent of cultural interference. After adaptation it will be rather hard to compare the results.

Furthermore, you seem to adhere to an obsolete definition of mentally retarded. To bring you up to date:
"Mental retardation refers to substantial limitations in present functioning. It is characterized by significantly subaverage intellectual functioning, existing concurrently with related limitations in two or more of the following applicable adaptive skill areas: communication, self-care, home living, social skills, community use, self-direction, health and safety, functional academics, leisure, and work. Mental retardation manifests before age 18" (American Association on Mental Retardation, 1992)

Just because someone has a low IQ doesn't mean one is mentally retarded.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Does poverty tend to lower IQ, and encourage criminality? Does genetically caused lower brain funtion, as measured by IQ sometimes lead to poverty and criminality? I think the answer to both questions is yes.

 

[Matthew C. Perry]

Just because someone has a low IQ doesn't mean one is mentally retarded.

I'm not that interested in the formal definitions. People who have low IQs and are funtionally impaired need help. People who have low IQs but function normally in most situations, might still need some help. At least their situation should be evaluated realistically. It makes no sense to just ignore the fact that their brains function at a lower level, and expect that they can become doctors, teachers, or wise government leaders of modern nations.

 

[bossel]

I'm not that interested in the formal definitions. People who have low IQs and are funtionally impaired need help. People who have low IQs but function normally in most situations, might still need some help. At least their situation should be evaluated realistically. It makes no sense to just ignore the fact that their brains function at a lower level, and expect that they can become doctors, teachers, or wise government leaders of modern nations.

That's the point exactly. People with a low IQ don't need some help imposed on them, they know very well that some situations are too abstract/complicated & then can call for help. You don't need to put social workers (& surely no police) on their heels to tell them how to live their lives.
Don't see why anybody should expect them to become doctors or whatever. A scavenger is as respectable a job as factory worker or doctor.

Fine, that we finally agree on something. Back to the original topic then, where I agree with Keeni:

I believe Xenophobia and racism to be different. Xenophobia is the fear of "outsiders" or strangers to your country. It even applies to people who may be of your country, but are recent immigrants. Racism is the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. It's different.