What's the difference between racism and xenophobia?

[Golgo_13]

This thread is getting old.

Let's talk about Japan that we can all benefit from.

 

[Maciamo]

Furthermore, you seem to adhere to an obsolete definition of mentally retarded. To bring you up to date:
"Mental retardation refers to substantial limitations in present functioning. It is characterized by significantly subaverage intellectual functioning, existing concurrently with related limitations in two or more of the following applicable adaptive skill areas: communication, self-care, home living, social skills, community use, self-direction, health and safety, functional academics, leisure, and work. Mental retardation manifests before age 18" (American Association on Mental Retardation, 1992)

Wow ! If you stick to that definition, then almost everybody is mentally retarded. How could one possibly not be "subaverage" in at least 2 of these skills (i.e. : "communication, self-care, home living, social skills, community use, self-direction, health and safety, functional academics, leisure, and work") ? There are lots of academics lacking social, community or leisure skills, and on the other hand, few people who are good communicator, good at social skills, community, home living, etc. tend to be remarkable at work and academics at the same time (that would be great though, if all people were like that).

My opinion is that with a similar brain (no brains are exactly equal in shape, but at least comparable in size or neuron density), one can difficultly be gifted in everything. Some people may be average in all skills, but the more an individual becomes gifted in one field, the more one or several other fields lag behind. There is no miracle ; it takes time to develop mental abilities, including sports, music and other arts too, which seem to be missing in the definition's list.

 

[bossel]

Maciamo, what I quoted is the accepted definition of mental retardation. It seems you didn't really read it thoroughly: extremely low IQ "existing concurrently with related limitations in two or more of the following applicable adaptive skill areas".
Academics usually won't qualify simply for the reason of having a rather high IQ.
Those you described may qualify for some personality disorder, though. Depending on the severity of their condition.

 

[Maciamo]

Oops, it seems I missed the "low IQ" part. I simply assumed that we could consider each type of intelligence as a form of IQ (emotional quotient, artistic quotient, social quotient, self-care quotient, etc.), as "intelligence" is certainly not entirely measured by IQ test.

Otherwise, it is still to define how broad is the "average", and what is "subaverage". For example, for the IQ, we could say that 100 is the average, but we could also say that 90 to 110 is the average. This would be very different for our "subaverage group", as more than 40% of humans should have (statisically) an IQ under 100, but maybe just 10% have an IQ lower than 90.

If each of the above "skills" can be tested and rated on a similar scale as IQ, then an average person could have results like :
- IQ=105, EQ=92, AQ=137, SQ=78, SCQ=119...
or
- IQ=88, EQ=111, AQ=112, SQ=107, SCQ=98...
etc.

The first person has an average of 106,2 in the 5 skills selected, which is above the average of 100, but has a EQ (emotional quotient) and SQ (social quotient) lower than average, and thus could be called retarded.
The second person has an average of 103,2, also above average, but has an IQ and SQ lower than the 100 average, and is also retarded.
Well, I have only taken 5 skills here, but we could easily find 10 or 15 of them. Needless to say that the more skills, the higher the chances of having 2 or more of them below average.

Even in regular IQ test, some are verbal, non-verbal, or test crystalised or fuild intelligence (the 4 main kinds of IQ test), and among them, some specialise in numbers, 2D shapes, 3D shapes, colours, etc. As some people score quite differently depending on the ype of IQ test, it is also necessary to define which one (probably the crystalised non-verbal one, like Mensa) should be taken for the "low IQ".

 

[bossel]

The first person has an average of 106,2 in the 5 skills selected, which is above the average of 100, but has a EQ (emotional quotient) and SQ (social quotient) lower than average, and thus could be called retarded.
The second person has an average of 103,2, also above average, but has an IQ and SQ lower than the 100 average, and is also retarded.

As some people score quite differently depending on the ype of IQ test, it is also necessary to define which one (probably the crystalised non-verbal one, like Mensa) should be taken for the "low IQ".

Below average alone wouldn't do, as is stated above: "significantly subaverage intellectual functioning"
Significantly would mean, depending on the definition you use, either below IQ 75 or 70. That would be mild retardation, all levels according to the WHO:

"Four levels of mental retardation are specified in ICD-10: F70 mild (IQ 50 - 69), F71 moderate (IQ 35 - 49), F72 severe (IQ 20 - 34), and F73 profound (IQ below 20). IQ should not be used as the only determining factor. Clinical findings and adaptive behavior should also be used to determine level of intellectual functioning. Two additional classifications are possible: F78 other mental retardation and F79 unspecified mental retardation. Other mental retardation (F78) should be used when associated physical or sensory impairments make it difficult to establish the degree of impairment. Unspecified mental retardation (F79) should be used when there is evidence of mental retardation but not enough information to establish a level of functioning (e.g., a toddler with significant delays in development who is too young to be assessed with an IQ measure)."

You will find more information here:
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Also about the tests used to evaluate mental retardation, eg. "Bayley Scales of Infant Development", "The Differential Ability Scales", various Wechsler scales etc.

 

[Maciamo]

Bossel, have you also read that gifted Chimps and Gorillas could have an IQ equivalent to up to 70 for humans. So there are apes more intelligent than some humans. Eventhough they can't speak ,they can use sign language, which some (retadrded) humans couldn't. The odd thing is that those apes have significantly smaller brains (one third ?) than humans. That must mean that mentally retarded humans have suffered severe brain injuries (maybe before birth) or tremendous lack of developement. The link to poverty and malnutrition (in Africa, for instance), is evident. So, it is no wonder after all that very poor people have lower IQ, which might explains what Matthew C. Perry said about Africans (but contrarily to what he thought, it is not genetical, even when it is congenial).

 

[bossel]

I haven't heard of the IQ of apes, but I know of experiments with bonobos & chimps. From these experiments it was concluded that they have cognitive abilities comparable to at least 4-year old human children.
That's one of the reasons why I wouldn't eat ape flesh although I normally would at least try anything edible.

The interesting thing is that these insights were already made in the 70's (I read Die Kolonie der sprechenden Schimpansen [Apes, Men & Language by Eugene Linden in the 80's & remember the snide remarks I got for reading this) but still are not widely known. A lot of people still think they don't have any intellectual properties.

 

[niku kudasai]

Hey everyone. I used to be Fsuman110 (the person who started this topic) but I've since changed my user name. Since this thread isn't going anywhere as far as the IQ discussion, I was wondering if we could get back on topic. Perhaps I should have said for the title: What's the difference between racial discrimination and xenophobia? If I would have said that, would it have made any difference as far as you guys are concerned?

 

[Golgo_13]

If you don't know by now . . . .

 

[carmelmmm]

I think demographics and the education system associated with such demographics are a much larger part of the equation than you seem to believe. I am a Sephardic Jew, my grandfather tested in with a 100 IQ with little education in fez Morocco, and my father growing up a little better off under my grandfather's dry cleaning business in southern France tested in with a 110 IQ. My father went to hair dressing trade school and immigrated to the U.S. where he bought a home in the vicinity of Walt Whitman H.S. in Bethesda Maryland, ranked in Newsweek one of Americas top 10 public schools. My half brother and I both attended this school, and he tested in two seperate IQ tests 152; 148. I too took two IQ tests, scoring 144, and 154 (by the way I also scored a 1410 on my sat). So I feel that even though my Arab (semitic) and Berberish (Hamitic) background, that cohesively form my Moorish racial background. Along with my sephardic background leave many (especially ashkenazi) believing that I have a racial disposition to be a retard, is a belief that is farse and is an idea that should not even be humored. As mentioned earlier in this thread, blacks have benefited intellectually in a white society, because of generally better school systems than in Africa, and I would venture to say they would benefit much further if the average black was afforded the average white man's education inside of our own nation. Now that is settled !

 

[Amazinggrace]

exist. I went to a nice Japanese Resturant with a guy in the Navy nicknamed Animal. He'd had a few drinks before I met him. He started grabbing handfuls of food off people's plates, growling like an annimal, and gobbling the food down like in Animal House. He scared the hell out of the poor people and grossed me out. Next day, there was a sign on their door, no gaijens.
Again, military guys at a going- away party at a small Japanese bar. They trashed the place; and when the little ol mama-san objected, a group of guys stood on the bar and took turns urinating on her. After it rebuilt & re-opened it had the sign on the door, no foreigners !!
I'm sure these stories get around among business owners and they decide they don't want anything bad happening to their business; so up go the signs. Like all situations, their are 2 sides!!

Frank

I have not heard so much rubbish. There are two sides? well you could look at everything like that. Sure there are some dickhead foreigners in Japan who act like ***`s but I can so NO MORE THAN JAPANESE! I have seen Japanese grope girls in the street and vomit everywhere on the sidewalk. I have seen J guys beating up on their girlfriends....I have seen it all. You say two sides hey......funny that. How about trying to rent an apartment??? very difficult. What every Gaijin who rented an apartment trashed it? That excuse is rubbish. How about when the world cup soccer came to Japan and when the tourists came to town all the shops closed up cause "Gaijin are big and scary".
What it comes down to in this instance is TOTAL IGNORANCE. The Japanese have been raised and bred to believe they are superior to everyone else. In everything. Now this is NOT all the Japanese...infact it would be best to segregate the generations when making a generalisation. The younger Japaense are usually pretty cool. Naturally they have certain stereostypes programmed into their minds but it is the older generation...and mostly the OYAJIS.
The only "two sides to a story" I would accept is perhaps they have never met or had much to do with foreigners and are scared. Again this is ignorance. There are many good Japanese people out there...but again there are a lot of ***`s too!

Is that the Western belief? I thought that it was just that people are people, and everyone deserves a certain level of respect. I certainly do not believe that everyone has the same abilities and potentialities, so I guess that I just assumed that most people thought so as well. Is there an example to which you could point to show that the Western belief holds "that individuals and population groups are equal in their abilities and potentialities"?

I think it would be wrong to say it is the "western belief", however I would say discrimitory practices being it agains a race, religion, sex, handicap or whatever is not tolerated with regards to social standards and law in the west. It was the west that introduced laws and encourages certain social acceptances with regards to the above. I see no other non-western country that allow homosexuality, freedom of religion, immigration etc etc etc. countries like Japan take a very long time to catch on from the west. this is why they will never be considered as western.
answer your question?

Dangerously close? Whites ARE smarter than blacks on average, at least in terms of the kind of smarts you need to score well on an IQ test, or a med school entrance exam.



Loads of studies have been done on population groups and IQ. American blacks as a group score about one standard deviation below whites, and have ever since the inception of IQ testing in the early 1900s. If the white IQ is defined as 100, then blacks are at about 85. East Asians score a little higher than whites, and Jews are the highest scoring group of all, in the 110-115 range.

interesting. yes I do not believe at all every race is equal in intelligence. you are fooling yourself. Just as the anatomy is different to different races so is the brain and its development.
so I guess when you define intelligence with an IQ matthew is probably right. But what about TOTAL intelligence or CULTURAL intelligence? for example look at modern civilisation. who created that? western civilisation. and then look at the aboriginals in Australia or the blacks (now I AM NOT being racist) in Africa. Living for over 40,000 years in Australia and creating no more than a boomerang or spear and a few dreamtime stories. And then the Africans.
To say all races are equal is like saying all people within a race is equal. Like ANY animal group whether dogs, horses, birds or whatever. Look at a German Shephard to a french poodle.

 

[jeisan]

interesting. yes I do not believe at all every race is equal in intelligence. you are fooling yourself. Just as the anatomy is different to different races so is the brain and its development.
so I guess when you define intelligence with an IQ matthew is probably right. But what about TOTAL intelligence or CULTURAL intelligence? for example look at modern civilisation. who created that? western civilisation. and then look at the aboriginals in Australia or the blacks (now I AM NOT being racist) in Africa. Living for over 40,000 years in Australia and creating no more than a boomerang or spear and a few dreamtime stories. And then the Africans.
To say all races are equal is like saying all people within a race is equal. Like ANY animal group whether dogs, horses, birds or whatever. Look at a German Shephard to a french poodle.

one may also argue in the opposite direction. what makes western culture so "intelligent?" computers? fast cars? spaceships? none of these things are neccessary for human survival, so they are technicly useless inventions.
let's use the aboriginals as an example, they make what they need to survive, a boomerang is an excellent hunting tool, if you miss it comes back. most western culture, and indeed eastern culture, is based on agriculture which when you think about it is alot more work than hunting and gathering. so instead of working harder these people work smarter. spend a little time getting some berries or what have, kill a kangaroo or two and call it a day. where as farmers need to look after crops for months and months before seeing a result. all the time worrying about bugs or other animals that may eat their crops, fending off wolves from their sheep etc etc. lots more work than letting nature do all that for ya. so really who's more intelligent?

as for dogs, from my experience muts tend to be alot better then pure bred dogs, since most pure breds are imbreds. what does a dogs following orders have to do with its intelligence? as far as im concerned that is a respect for authority issue and has little to do with IQ.

FYI. full size poodles are one of the most intelligent breeds of dog, moreso than german shepards.

 

[Golgo_13]

Amazing,

Which rubbish posted this?:

"I have not heard so much rubbish. There are two sides? well you could look at everything like that. Sure there are some dickhead foreigners in Japan who act like ***`s but I can so NO MORE THAN JAPANESE! I have seen Japanese grope girls in the street and vomit everywhere on the sidewalk. I have seen J guys beating up on their girlfriends....I have seen it all. You say two sides hey......funny that. How about trying to rent an apartment??? very difficult. What every Gaijin who rented an apartment trashed it? That excuse is rubbish. How about when the world cup soccer came to Japan and when the tourists came to town all the shops closed up cause "Gaijin are big and scary".
What it comes down to in this instance is TOTAL IGNORANCE. The Japanese have been raised and bred to believe they are superior to everyone else. In everything. Now this is NOT all the Japanese...infact it would be best to segregate the generations when making a generalisation. The younger Japaense are usually pretty cool. Naturally they have certain stereostypes programmed into their minds but it is the older generation...and mostly the OYAJIS."

Why was it so difficult for him to accept Frank's comment that there are 2 sides? What makes him so holier than thou?

 

[jeisan]

thats amazinggrace's work there homie.
ill edit it so it looks right.

 

[Golgo_13]

thats amazinggrace's work there homie.
ill edit it so it looks right.

LOL! Calling a 43-year-old man a "homie".

But I guess I've been called much worse.

One time when I was living in NYC, I was walking home from the gym and a car drove up and some punk inside said "Hey faggot! You gonna be in the Gay Games?"

I turned around, dropped my gym bag, and said "yeah, full-contact karate. Get out of the car."

Must've been my pink socks.

 

[scotsboyuk]

The idea that one 'race' or 'people' think of themselves as better than another is not a new concept and it exists in varying degrees throughout history. If we look at modern America we can see a large section of the populace who believe that America is the greatest nation on Earth and that Americans, by extension, are the greatest people on Earth.
Britons used to think of themselves as being superior to others because their nation has conquered a quarter of the planet.
Germans thoguht themselves superior when during WWII when their armies crushed British and French forces and were on the brink of defeating the U.S.S.R.

These sort of feelings usually stem from national pride, which isn't necessarily a bad thing itself, but when it is taken to an extreme then it becomes dangerous.

 

[PaulTB]

If we look at modern America we can see a large section of the populace who believe that America is the greatest nation on Earth and that Americans, by extension, are the greatest people on Earth.
Britons used to think of themselves as being superior to others because their nation has conquered a quarter of the planet.

And now we think of ourselves as being superior to others because we aren't American.


(Yes that was a joke).

 

[scotsboyuk]

@PaulTB

Actually, as much as your comment was meant as a joke, it does actually hold an element of truth to it. It seems to be fashionable in some circles to be anti-American or to deride America and/or Americans.

 

[PaulTB]

Actually, as much as your comment was meant as a joke, it does actually hold an element of truth to it.

Most jokes include an element of truth to them.

It seems to be fashionable in some circles to be anti-American or to deride America and/or Americans.

Which has its attraction until you consider that about 49% of Americans hold the once and present US administration in about as much contempt as a lot of those outside of America do.

People who say 'America this' 'Americans that' without stopping to consider that point are as guilty of broadstroke stereotyping as anybody.

 

[TwistedMac]

I only dislike the american administration, the bible wielders and the gun wielders (the last two are often the same people ("I turn the other cheek... cuz otherwise I might get shrapnel in my eyes from firing these badass guns!").. in some cases all three are the same people.

But when talking to a friend about it, I don't say "the american administration, the hardcore christians and all those people that insist it's their right to have weapons of minor destruction in their homes" every time I want to mention them.. I just say "Americans". If I were to be correct about things like that, I'd never be able to finish a sentance! TOO MANY WORDS!!

It goes both ways tho.. If a group of 10 Americans have done something cool, I can be inclined to go "Americans are cool"

 

[scotsboyuk]

@TwistedMac

Swedes eh?!

 

[TwistedMac]

exactly