Violent anti-Japanese demonstration in Beijing, China

[shiroma]

However it is the matter of time til Koizumi visits Yasukuni again (he has been visiting the shrine every year since he got elected for the first time in 1972.)

Err, I guess you meant since he was elected in 2001.

Profile of Prime Minister Koizumi

Member of the House of Representatives since 1972 (reelected in 11 consecutive elections)

 

[Hiroshi66]

What really gets me angry is the hypocrisy of this all. Chinese are getting mad about Japanese textbooks? Why don't they look at their own Chinese history textbooks and read the parts about the Nanking Decade, and the illegal annexation of Tibet? Why does Japan have to be the slave and apologize while China sits there smiling while they've done things with their own horror.

 

[Maciamo]

What really gets me angry is the hypocrisy of this all. Chinese are getting mad about Japanese textbooks? Why don't they look at their own Chinese history textbooks and read the parts about the Nanking Decade, and the illegal annexation of Tibet? Why does Japan have to be the slave and apologize while China sits there smiling while they've done things with their own horror.

Seeing it this way, if I were to negotiate a settlement between Japan and China regarding apologies and textbooks (on the behalf of the UN, for instance), I would ask for China to apologize to the Tibetans and Uyghurs, and make clear mention of what happened in the history textbooks, in exchange for Japan to do the same. The only problem is that China still occupies Tibet, so that it would be difficult not to ask for Tibet's independence at the same time if they admit their wrongful occupation. China is not going to give Tibet away, and may ask for Okinawa or Hokkaido to become independent in exchange, as Japan colonised them in the late 19th century. The Japanese counter-attack would be that Okinawan or Ainu people do not wish their independence. To what the Chinese could reply that it's only natural as most of the natives were exterminated or forced to intermarry, and so that if it does the same in Tibet, Tibet will hav no grounds to become independent ever again. Dangerous game.

 

[Dream Time]

What really gets me angry is the hypocrisy of this all. Chinese are getting mad about Japanese textbooks? Why don't they look at their own Chinese history textbooks and read the parts about the Nanking Decade, and the illegal annexation of Tibet? Why does Japan have to be the slave and apologize while China sits there smiling while they've done things with their own horror.

you have to seperate the 'government' and the 'people'

it is the Chinese people who are asking for the Japanese to apologize, and many Chinese do not agree of what the the CCP did to Tibet and etc

I, for one, hates the CCP for the crimes that they have commited.

 

[Dream Time]

What really gets me angry is the hypocrisy of this all. Chinese are getting mad about Japanese textbooks? Why don't they look at their own Chinese history textbooks and read the parts about the Nanking Decade, and the illegal annexation of Tibet? Why does Japan have to be the slave and apologize while China sits there smiling while they've done things with their own horror.

if Japan replies to the Chinese's request of an apology by saying 'your country has committed crimes too'
first of all, almost all countries have committed crimes, if you go by the logic 'a country which has committed crimes, is not qualified to request for an apology from another country', then no country would need to apologize for their cimes.
this is like...person A stole a piece of bread from person B, and B stole an apple from someone else...B asks A to confest and apologize, A replies by saying 'you stole an apple from someone else too, why do i need apologize to you?' , both A and B are wrong, and just because B also did something wrong, does not mean that A do not need to apologize to B.

 

[Dream Time]

Well, to admit your country has done horrible things is something the Japanese can't do that easily because of PRIDE maybe :? And I don't think the Chinese would be satisfied from one day on another even if the Japanese did appologize.

the Germans have apologized and really changed, they put so much effort to educate their kids not to repeat the same mistake again.

I can't speak for other Chinese people, but for me, if Japan sincerely apologized and really learned the lesson, I can forgive

 

[shiroma]

you have to seperate the 'government' and the 'people'

The world sees that things are well orchestrated between government and people, like:

The whole thing what amazes me the most is that the police doesn't do anything!! They just let the people throw stones etc.

Riot police not trying to stop mob could be in a way, violation of Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations Article 22-2.

The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.

 

[Hiroshi66]

I am all for Japan apologizing. Go ahead and do it already!

But once Japan does apologize, what exactly will happen? japan will be the good-boy of Asia while China continues commiting atrocities.

 

[Maciamo]

I am all for Japan apologizing. Go ahead and do it already!

But once Japan does apologize, what exactly will happen? japan will be the good-boy of Asia while China continues commiting atrocities.

There are 3 good reasons for Japan to formally apologize for its war crimes :

1) It will lower anti-Japanese sentiment in China, and therefore lower the chances of China attacking Japan or Chinese people attacking Japanese people in the future.

2) It gives no good excuse to China to veto Japan's bid for a permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

3) It makes Japan appear more civilised. Now Japan crawls at the same level as China politically, if not even lower. Can only be good for Japan's international image, and bad if Japan insist on not taking its responsibilities.

 

[shiroma]

I am all for Japan apologizing. Go ahead and do it already!

There are 3 good reasons for Japan to formally apologize for its war crimes :

Some people might have felt that this is not an apology:

In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology.

(from On the Occasion of the 50th Anniversary of the War's End)


Someone criticized Japan for not apologizing to China individually in this post, but Chinese government does not complain about that according to Joint Declaration on Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development, which reads

The Japanese side observes the 1972 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China and the 15 August 1995 Statement by former Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this. The Chinese side hopes that the Japanese side will learn lessons from the history and adhere to the path of peace and development.

 

[PaulTB]

Some people might have felt that this is not an apology

It looks pretty much like one to me. :-/

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙債、 窶督｢窶藩??堙嫁津ｫ窶堋ｿ窶督ｳ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙溪?堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｪﾅ津娯?堙可、 窶ｹ^窶堋､窶堙冷?堋ｭ窶堙?窶堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?氾ｰﾅｽj窶堙固ｽ窶毒ｽﾃ?窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｪ窶ｹ窶｢窶堙嫁ｽﾃｳ窶堋ｯﾅｽ~窶堙淞、 窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙俄?堋?窶堙ｧ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙??凖可静倪?堙遺?敖ｽﾂ湘遺?堙戸?凪?堙ｰ窶｢\窶堋ｵﾂ、 ﾂ心窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙娯?堋ｨﾋ徑窶堙鯛?堙娯?ｹCﾅｽﾂ昶?堋ｿ窶堙ｰ窶｢\窶督ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。 窶堙懌?堋ｽﾂ、 窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?氾ｰﾅｽj窶堋ｪ窶堙?窶堋ｽ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶愿?ﾅ?O窶堋ｷ窶堙冷?堙??堙娯?ｹ]ﾂ青ｵﾅｽﾃ停?堙可深窶堋｢ﾋ?｣窶懌?ｰ窶堙娯?抂窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃｹ窶堋ｰ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

However I'm not so concerned with that as I am with whether school history textbooks in Japan reasonably represent events of the time.

 

[Gaki]

TBH an apology doesnt mean very much when you still go around sweeping your dirties under the carpet.

 

[bossel]

TBH an apology doesnt mean very much when you still go around sweeping your dirties under the carpet.

That's it, I think. Japan can apologise as often as it wants, as long as they accept textbooks for their schools which play down past atrocities the feelings in China & Korea won't change.
On the other hand, if Chinese & Koreans actually would see Japan come to terms with its past, perhaps they wouldn't even demand more formal apologies.

 

[Dream Time]

like i said, the Germans have apologized and they put so much effort into teaching their next generations not to repeat the same mistake again, i think people from German could tell you what their teachers in schools taught them

the Japanese has never sincerely apologized to the people of Asia, their Prime Ministers have 'apologized' by saying they are concious of Japan's reponsibility and have expressed 'deep remorse', and then on the other hand their government keeps trying to pass on the propagandas to their next generation, like 'Japan did not invade China', or 'Japan was trying to liberate the Asian countries' and to encourage their people to sacrifice their lives to save the country.

 

[urecco]

the Japanese has never sincerely apologized to the people of Asia, their Prime Ministers have 'apologized' by saying they are concious of Japan's reponsibility and have expressed 'deep remorse', and then on the other hand their government keeps trying to pass on the propagandas to their next generation, like 'Japan did not invade China', or 'Japan was trying to liberate the Asian countries' and to encourage their people to sacrifice their lives to save the country.

Japanese education system is not like that.
schools can shoose one textbook from verious ones.
And the gov't never forces them to use particular one.

In addition.even the textbook written by so-called "right-wingers" does not say "Japan did not invade China" nor "Japan was trying to liberate the Asian countries"
It says "Japan invaded the Asia in the name of liberalization."

I wonder why so many people claim about the history textbook as if they had read the textbook.

 

[skyyrie]

That is correct. And China has been allowing its citizens to chanel their frustrations about the country's government toward the outside for hundreds of years. It's the way they do things. That is why I am not very optimistic about China getting weapons from other, more technologically advanced countries. If China goes to war with any other country, many Chinese people will let out their accumulated frustration in this war, let the Nazi against the Jews and the Japanese against their neighbours in WWII. The difference being that China is more populous than all the rest of East Asia combined, or all the American continent. And the Chinese regime more repressive than the German or Japanese one in the 1930's.

So donn't change the topic, the sentiment anti-japanese cann't be the work of the government.

I just cann't imagine if germany writes in the textbook as the japanese does, the jewist ,french ,polish and russian people will do noting just idle about.

Even if there are no liberty of speech in china , we still have our own attitude. To the point of the brutality of the past , it 's we the chinese people who show our indination not the goverment.

 

[ArmandV]

It seems to me that China expects Japan to grovel over the past. The war ended almost 61 years ago.

It also seems to me that Japan already apologized. The current generation of Japanese did not commit the crimes, so why should they have to feel guilty about anything? If there was an apology due, it was by the people who actually committed the crimes.

Still, the violence against Japanese businesses is a poor excuse.

Isn't it about time that all concerned moved on?

 

[Maciamo]

TBH an apology doesnt mean very much when you still go around sweeping your dirties under the carpet.

That's a good point. How hypocritical is it to said they apologised (not very well), and then have the Prime Minister paying homage to Class-A War Criminals and the Governor of Tokyo insisting that the Nanking Massacre is a myth and never happened. If top Japanese politicians are so irresponsible in their behaviour, it is natural for Japan to get blamed by the international communty (not just China).

 

[RockLee]

Now that the Koreans also started to demonstrate against the Japanese textbooks it's getting out of control I think...There has to be a way that satisfies all parties involved ☝

 

[Maciamo]

Japanese education system is not like that.
schools can shoose one textbook from verious ones.
And the gov't never forces them to use particular one.

I am fed up of all those excuses ! Everytime I talk about the relations between Japan and China to Japanese people, all they can do is find excuses like that ("there is more than one textbook; teachers cn choose..."), and say that China doesn't want to accept their past apologies, or that it won't change anything to apologise because China will always be anti-Japanese, or that Yasukuni Shrine is a shrine like any other, or that China is no better than Japan for its textbooks, or wahtever. Always like that ! How immature are Japanese people ?! Isn't it obvious that an apology cannot be accepted if so many Japanese people still think that Japan didn't commit atrocities during WWII or that it is no problem for the Prime Minister to visit Yasukuni-jinja.

Germany not only apologised for its war cimes and paid war reparations, the most important is that the children are taught to sincerely feel guilty for their forefathers, and that any anti-semitic or racist behaviour is unacceptable. Japan not only discriminate against Chinese and Korean immigrants, but against all foreigners in a very insiduous and cowardly manner (eg. limitation of visas, harassment by the police, refusal of most landowners and real estate agencies to rent to foreigners, etc.).

Japan accepts less political refugees than any other developed country in the world (1000x less than Britain in the period between 1992 and 2001!). The excuse is always that Japan is not an asylum country, that it has no tradition of accepting immigrants, etc. But does any European country have ? Germany in particular has a history of not accepting even the Jews that had been there for hundreds of years, but is now accepting more immigrants than almost any other EU country.

Japan always claim to be racially pure, to be unique and harmonious, and that an influx of immigrants will disturb the "wa" (group harmony). That is a very selfish way of thinking, and very dated one too. This could have been acceptable 100 years ago, but not in 2005. If Japan feels so proud that it cannot apologise properly and its people feel sincere remorse for killings over 10 million people in China & Asia during WWII, if it persists to downplay the importance of these atrocities (not just the politicians, but the population as a whole, who is very easily influenced by the media or government attitude), and Japan continue to do all it can to accept as few immigrants and refugees as it can, and only cedes to foreign pressure reluctantly and never because the Japanese really consent, then maybe Japan should go back to its Edo-era isolation and cut all diplomatic relations with the world, withdraw its companies from Europe, America, Asia or anywhere, and be the unique and pure nation it wants to be, all by itslef. It seems obvious that the Japanese are so self-centered that they cannot possibly live in harmony with other people, and that there will always be an "uchi" and a "soto", and that the Japanese will always tacitly feel different, unique or even superior. Maybe it is time for the world to wake up and see that Japan can only be friendly in a hypocritical way, when it benefit it to do so. Altruism is a thing reserved only for relations from Japanese to Japanese. Chinese people do not deserve respect because they are only Chinese, that's how a Japanese mind is taught to think. How could anyone trust a person who thinks this way ?

 

[Dream Time]

It seems to me that China expects Japan to grovel over the past. The war ended almost 61 years ago.

It also seems to me that Japan already apologized. The current generation of Japanese did not commit the crimes, so why should they have to feel guilty about anything? If there was an apology due, it was by the people who actually committed the crimes.

Still, the violence against Japanese businesses is a poor excuse.

Isn't it about time that all concerned moved on?

the war ended almost 61 years ago, but still the Japanese has not apologized, i mean 61 years, for 61 years Japan is still denying history.
they have apologized on a few occasions, but on the other hand they keep brainwashing their children,
like Gaki said, an apology means nothing when you are still sweeping dirts under the carpet

one important thing, the government keeps sending 'pro war' propagandas to their citizens, even the teenagers and children, they brainwash their citizens into believing fighting for Japan is an honor, and other Asians deserves no respect just because they are not Japanese.
i remember when i was studying psychology, one of the psychologists said that you can raise a kid to be a thief, be a musician, be a policeman, be whatever, and guess what, if the government keeps sending these types of messages to their kids, they can raise those kids to be soldiers or militarists too.
kids are innocent, they are very pure like water or paper, if you send them messages they just receive them without really thinking about right or wrong, for example, nowadays you see some kids and teenagers becoming so aggressive, just look at what kind of tv shows they watch and what kind of music they listen to.

one incident, in the year 2000, there was this 8 year old Chinese girl born in Japan, she has a Chinese name, her Japanese classmates made fun of her, they formed this little group to bully her everyday, saying that she smells bad, she gets punched and kicked everyday, the whole class discriminated her. the female teacher didn't help her, instead, she often made fun of her in front of the class. the little girl attempted suicide 3 times.
her parents insisted to have a parent meeting, on the meeting one of the bully's parent said that 'there are reasons when someone gets bullied, nobody is helping your kid, that proves that your kid have some problems', the vice principal actually agreed with this parent and said the whole thing was a joke

this maybe an isolated incident, but it tells you what kind of message that they are sending to their citizens and children,
if the government brainwash their citizens and kids into thinking 'Japanese are superior' , 'Japan was the hero in WW2', it is very dangerous for Japan and the world.

 

[Dream Time]

ask any Jewish person, what if the Germans have never apologized and they act like how Japan is acting right now? i am sure the Jewish would feel the same way as the Chinese and Koreans are feeling right now

the war ended like 60 years ago, but the militarism is still there
and if you think that 'the war ended so long ago, we should forget and move on', you have fallen into the trap set by the Japanese government, that is what they want, brainwash their citizens, wait for time to pass, wait for the people who lived through the WW2 to all die, then everyone forgets about the war crimes that Japan committed.
also, some people who suffered in WW2 are still alive

how could a person grow up if he does not recognize his past mistakes?

 

[Shibuyaexpat]

Japanese education system is not like that.
schools can shoose one textbook from verious ones.
And the gov't never forces them to use particular one.

Really? Then how does this statement fit in (from Japan Times, 4/7/05, "Fuso flouted screening regulations")

"In Japan, all elementary to high schools are required to use textbooks approved by the education ministry. Boards of education and school principals determine which authorized texts are to be used in their schools."

In addition.even the textbook written by so-called "right-wingers" does not say "Japan did not invade China" nor "Japan was trying to liberate the Asian countries"
It says "Japan invaded the Asia in the name of liberalization."

Are you serious? Your quote basically supports critics' arguments that Japan's attitude towards the past is that of Asian hero. Saying "Japan invaded the Asia in the name of liberalization," is like saying, "I'll rape you so that you won't get raped by others." You can't INVADE another country to LIBERATE it.

I wonder why so many people claim about the history textbook as if they had read the textbook.

Because it's so obviously clear by comments of those who did read them (I'm assuming that you're one of them), that these textbooks are a nationalistic revision of Japan's past.

 

[Maciamo]

It also seems to me that Japan already apologized. The current generation of Japanese did not commit the crimes, so why should they have to feel guilty about anything? If there was an apology due, it was by the people who actually committed the crimes.

I have explained in this thread (post #5) and this post too, that Japan has apologised to Korea and some South-East Asian countries, but has not presented formal, official apologies to the PRC only. In same thread (post #13) I also explained why it is the Emperor who should apologise for the nation.

So, no it's not over. Japan has always postponed its apologies, but it doesn't mean it's too late for it, especially that some high-ranking politicians are still negating the existance of some brutal massacres, and the government continues to approve textbooks that downplay those massacres.

 

[TheKansaiKid]

My initial feeling about the whole "apologize" controversy was

that an apology 50 years late would mean nothing anyway so why is it so important? I guess that is easy for me to say when I am personally removed from the atrocities while these people have personal connections. More important to me than verbal apologies are feelings of regret. While I have no Chinese perspective on the issue it seems to be Japan has made strides to seperate itself from it's militant past. Of course there are factions within Japan trying to move it the other way, but I think that a vast majority of Japanese citizens desire nothing more than peace and understanding between countries. Exactly what is the statute of limitations here, should Rome be apologizing for invading England? No country is spotless, the best we can expect is that the citizens try to improve their country, and move forward. In moving forward, a memory of the past is important. (the whole doomed to repeat it thing)

Should Japan apologize? Of course yes, but the whole textbook issue seems more pertinant to me. They say History is written by the victors, which means all history is tainted by the people who tell that history. In every country there are people who would gloss over the mistakes (a grossly understated word to use in this case) their country has made. There are also people who strive to see that history is an accurate portrayal of what actually happened. The Japanese who truly are interested in the truth of what happened in China during the war can find the truth in readily available books in Japan. Japan is a country with a very long history, they should mention the horrible things their country was responsible for as well as parts of their history of which they can be more proud. I think in an effort to give their students a positive national identity some textbook writers have intentionally glossed over the darker parts of Japanese history. However I think that many Chinese would not be happy unless all texts were to cover only the period and crimes of WWII.

A few days ago there was a post with pictures of some of these horrific crimes posted by one of our Chinese friends. I thought they were a bit inappropriate, on a public forum like this. These photos were very graphic and really assaulted the senses. A moderator quickly removed the post and was soundly berated for it by the poster. Perhaps he could have posted a link to those pictures and warned us of the graphic nature instead he wanted to shock. He said those photos should be included in Japanese texts, my daughter attends a Japanese school for 2 months every year and I have no desire for her to witness mans inhumanity to man on that scale. If we need to have more accurate texts how in depth do these texts need to go to satisfy everyone, and what history should be ignored to see that it can be included. After all there are only so many hours in a day to teach the kids, they aren't going to learn everything while they are in high school.