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Violent anti-Japanese demonstration in Beijing, China

TheKansaiKid said:
that an apology 50 years late would mean nothing anyway so why is it so important?

It apparently means something to Chinese people, as they are still demanding an apology, and still angry at Japan. Just have a look at all the Chinese forum members who post almost exclusively about Japan's war crimes in their country. It's still very much alive, and an apology could soothe this anger.

More important to me than verbal apologies are feelings of regret.

Which I think many Japanese don't have. I only hear people excusing Japan's past or trying to downplay the events and argue about the number of people who died. There is definitely no sense of regret or remorse among the Japanese population. Try and ask people around you about Japan's massacre of some 10 million Chinese civilians. People will either change topic, or find excuses. I haven't heard anyone sincerely tell me that this is horrible, that they feel ashamed of their country's actions and their government's current state of hypocritical actions (homage to war criminals, approval of textbooks that downplay or omit the atrocities...).

While I have no Chinese perspective on the issue it seems to be Japan has made strides to seperate itself from it's militant past. Of course there are factions within Japan trying to move it the other way, but I think that a vast majority of Japanese citizens desire nothing more than peace and understanding between countries.

Of course they want. Because they are not allowed to have an army and feel vulnerable. They also know that China is 10x more populous than Japan and growing strong, and that the Chinese want their revenge. The Japanese are afraid, that is why they claim they only want peace and understanding, but deep inside them don't give a damn about what Chinese people feel and always try to excuse their past rather than face it like Germany/Austria did.

Exactly what is the statute of limitations here, should Rome be apologizing for invading England?

I will have to give you some negative reputation points for this comment, although I usually appreciate your opinion. You can't compare things that happened 2000 years ago with events committed by people who are still alive today, including several politicians or their children. What's more the Romans did not massacre the locals in the invaded countries, and could not have killed 10 or 20 million people, when the total population of the whole Roman Empire from Britain to Egypt was only 4 or 5 million (sources).

In moving forward, a memory of the past is important. (the whole doomed to repeat it thing)

My insight as a history buff is that China will try to get their revenge, as Germany did for WWI, because it was not satisfied with the settlement and apologies. I think that the Chinese in the fast-developing cities of Eastern China are only starting to protest now, as they slowly realise that the Jews and other victims of the Nazi got a much better deal than they did, as they are getting better educated and have more free time.

The Japanese who truly are interested in the truth of what happened in China during the war can find the truth in readily available books in Japan.

Yo don't seem to understand the importance the compulsory national education has on people's minds. How many people are going to read the more pertinent and less nationlistic books ? 1% of the population ? If they grew up with the conviction that Japan has nothing to reproach itself, it's probably too late. Even learning about what really happened, they will only try to find excuses or dismiss the more neutral and reliable sources as "exagerated".

Japan is a country with a very long history, they should mention the horrible things their country was responsible for as well as parts of their history of which they can be more proud.

Japan has a very long history ? The Western civilization has a history going back to circa 3000BC. Japan's first historical records date from circa 600 AD, about 100 years after the fall of the Roman Empire and the end of the Antiquity in Europe. In fact, Japan has one of the shortest history of any Eurasian country (does that explain their immaturity in diplomatic relations ?).

I think in an effort to give their students a positive national identity some textbook writers have intentionally glossed over the darker parts of Japanese history.

Why should they try to give a positive image of their country during WWII ? German textbooks don't. They have enough positive or neutral aside. Why should everything be positive in a country's history ? (except if it's written by nationalists)

He said those photos should be included in Japanese texts, my daughter attends a Japanese school for 2 months every year and I have no desire for her to witness mans inhumanity to man on that scale.

What ? Haven't you seen photos or videos of Nazi concentration camps or the horrors of the Vietnam War when you were at school ? In my school, all students had to (at age 17, as it may be too shocking for younger people). In fact, grade 12's history class was almost entirely dedicated to WWI, WWII and other 20th events (Korean War, Vietnam War...).

After all there are only so many hours in a day to teach the kids, they aren't going to learn everything while they are in high school.

History is on of the most fundamental subject, along with maths, geography and one's mother tongue. The rest (sciences, foreign languages, psychology, arts, sports...) is mostly optional. In several EU countries there is at least 4 years of compulsory history classes (often 6 years), with at least one or two semesters dedicated to the 20th century and WWII, as it is the period closest to us, and necessary to understand the world as it is today. I believe that any education system that does not include this minimum is not a good education system (I have many more critera, of course).
 
Quote by TheKansaiKid:

"They say History is written by the victors..." Yes, but Japan lost the war, or were you referencing economy?

Regardless, I think the point is (and someone else made this point in one of the other posts), that the Japanese gov't's verbal "apologies" are in contrast with its actions via currnet foreign policies. I'm reminded of my father's words: say what you mean, and mean what you say.
 
As a Chinese,I apologize for all.
That's not the correct way to solve the problem.

I always wonder how could Japan and China rebuild a new Sino-Japan ties,and melt the tension.

Anyway,China and India are also neighbors,they have history problems as well,why they can have a decent relationship,why can't China and Japan??
 
urecco said:
Japanese education system is not like that.
schools can shoose one textbook from verious ones.
And the gov't never forces them to use particular one.
Betcha they can only choose from 'various ones' which have been approved for use. Same principle as "Intelligent Design" textbooks in America.

urecco said:
In addition.even the textbook written by so-called "right-wingers" does not say "Japan did not invade China" nor "Japan was trying to liberate the Asian countries" It says "Japan invaded the Asia in the name of liberalization."
Cuz that's so much better. 😌

urecco said:
I wonder why so many people claim about the history textbook as if they had read the textbook.
I haven't "claimed about the history textbook" I have expressed my concern over what they may contain. From your own comments I would appear to be justified in having such concerns.
 
Maciamo said:
I also explained why it is the Emperor who should apologise for the nation.
How much power did he actually have compared to what he theoretically / constitutionally had? There are various things still on the books that the Queen of England could theoretically use but in practice any attempt to do so would (at best) result in a media kerfuffle and a quick amendment to the law.

If he truely had more than a figurehead position there should be examples where he has put through things on his own behalf that weren't favoured by those below him at the time.
 
Japan always has doubles standard for others and herself

ArmandV said:
It seems to me that China expects Japan to grovel over the past. The war ended almost 61 years ago.


It also seems to me that Japan already apologized. The current generation of Japanese did not commit the crimes, so why should they have to feel guilty about anything? If there was an apology due, it was by the people who actually committed the crimes.

Still, the violence against Japanese businesses is a poor excuse.
Isn't it about time that all concerned moved on?

a mistake is a mistake, no matter how long it had already past.if your mum is killed by someone else, can u say"i don't mind since it is long time ago"?if you can,i i will say you r not human.
Ya ya ya it "seems" japan had apologized but she never "does". so you are saying what Germany doing is not right? why do u think Germany became friends with so many europe countries?you are not apart from your country!if you are not responsible for anything Japan do why should you still carry a Japan passport?

it is poor excuse?so what? Japan gave other people excuses, you eat what you sow, so who is stupid?
 
hiroshi's logic in argument is so wired

Hiroshi66 said:
What really gets me angry is the hypocrisy of this all. Chinese are getting mad about Japanese textbooks? Why don't they look at their own Chinese history textbooks and read the parts about the Nanking Decade, and the illegal annexation of Tibet? Why does Japan have to be the slave and apologize while China sits there smiling while they've done things with their own horror.

Hiroshi you just have no logic in ur argument, you don't even have common sense.
So by your logic, i can't point out a murder if i myself am a murderer? what have these two things got to do with each other?the truth is, no one say the Communists in China is the best, but it doesn't mean if the communists are bad then the Japanese are good!
why do you always bring them together, so just because communist are bad to their own people, the japanese can be bad to the chinese people too?
see how wired your logic is.i have no comment on you, go back read more books and organize your brain.stop making a fool of yourself.
 
jung hyum said:
i have no comment on you, go back read more books and organize your brain.stop making a fool of yourself.
I agree with the "two wrongs don't make a right" logic - but I don't think you're going to win friends by insulting people.
 
PaulTB said:
I agree with the "two wrongs don't make a right" logic - but I don't think you're going to win friends by insulting people.

Exactly right. Personal attacks and insults won't get you very far. It's best if you ease up.
 
A big difference is that the Chinese Communist Party's atrocities against people are still happening, while Japan isn't doing such things since ww2 ended.


Clive Ansley has been involved with China for over 40 years, first as an academic and scholar and then as a lawyer. He found the judicial system to be a "theater", whose cases are decided by governmental personnel who don't attend the trials, and completely illegal according to their own constitution. As grave as that is, he does not consider it the worst of their crimes.

"Well, it's a government like we've heard here tonight. First of all to make it very current it is involved in genocide. What it's doing to the Falun Gong adherents at the moment which is totally and utterly extralegal. Why do I say they're totally evil? That's just one example of it but this is a government that lies, commits the most outrageous atrocities and then lies about it. And the last historical incident of that that I would point to is the massacre in 1989." Ansley mentions the re-writing of history and denial by the CCP of the massacre in Tianamin Square against student protestors in 1989.

"They have done that repeatedly. They have rewritten history, they have altered photographs, they stop at nothing to just completely fictionalize history and disguise the outrages they've perpetrated."

http://www.ntdtv.com/xtr/eng/aReadArticle.jsp?id=27007
 
Eisuke said:
A big difference is that the Chinese Communist Party's atrocities against people are still happening, while Japan isn't doing such things since ww2 ended.
That's a big difference between China and Japan - and indeed I don't think anybody has suggested that current China is better than current Japan. However it has no relevance at all to (for example) whether Japan should, or shouldn't, appologise specifically to China.

This issue is exactly the sort of problem that I have with the US foreign policy. If there are two countries at odds (e.g. Israel and Palestine) America immediately tags one as 'good' and one as 'bad'.

This in itself isn't so terrible - but it then goes on to ignore anything which could be interpreted as bad done by the 'good' country or consider it irrelevant because the 'bad' country has done worse.

It doesn't matter how good your country is in general - bad actions are still bad.
 
Unfortunately China killed more of its people during the infamous Cultural Revolution than anyone else. As a Taiwanese American, I'd like Japan and China to admit to their errors. Even if they don't, many people know what happened and we won't forget.
 
A.A. Lee said:
Unfortunately China killed more of its people during the infamous Cultural Revolution than anyone else. As a Taiwanese American, I'd like Japan and China to admit to their errors. Even if they don't, many people know what happened and we won't forget.
So true. Whether Japan admits it's atrocities or not the whole world knows the truth. What gets me is that China is demanding an apology from Japan, but why are they not apologizing for their own slaughters to their own people? It seems like hypocracy to me. And the Chinese people are going along with it! Do they not know the atrocities comitted by their own government against their own people?

Dream Time said:
the Nanking Massacre is a massacre, a war crime, NOT an 'incident'

stop using the word 'incident'
Incident, massacre, does it really matter? An English writer once said, "A rose by any other name is still a rose. As I said above, why doesn't China apologize for their own massacres during the cultural revoloution?

China isn't democractic, it is still in the progress of walking towards democracy.
Do you really believe China will ever become a democracy? Not in my lifetime I think. The communists are too entrenched and have too much control over the people. Just look at the recent demonstrations against Japan. The "sheeple" are just following blindly what the government tells them to do. Much like years ago when politicians here in the US started smashing Japanese cars with sledge hammers. Soon the people followed blindly without checking the facts and a Chinese man was murdered by some workers in the US because they thought he was Japanese. Sad, but true.
 
If it is always going to come down to 'i blame you and you blame me' why dont we all just go back to the jungle and throw excrement at each other...

Of course there are many problems with China's government, it is after all a DEVELOPING country...IMO Japan is not doing a very good job of protecting it's own people by continuing this game of 'we didn't do it'...
If Japan is going to continue to disregard the way other Asian countries feel about it, then the only thing i can think we can look forward to is more violence...
 
The main idea I was trying to get accross in an earlier post was that

In my oppinion apologies are worthless, like i said just my oppinion and apparently almost everyone disagrees. A public apology brings no one back to life. The person apologizing is more than likely insincere, because he personally did nothing. The textbook issue on the other hand is vitally important, remembering the past helps us learn and avoid similar mistakes, thats why I think they are two seperate issues.

I am however a bit disturbed by comments along these lines:

You can't compare things that happened 2000 years ago with events committed by people who are still alive today, including several politicians or their children.

If people are still alive that committed atrocities they should undeniably be brought to justice, but their children? To hold people responsible for their parents grandparents or greatgrandparents actions is absurd. In a rural area of the USA I was verbally assaulted once by a man who said he was a survivor of a japanese prison camp, when he found my girlfriend was japanese he called me a traitor to my country and my race and her a the seed of the devil. I can see why he felt that way, BUT SHE WASN'T THERE. I just think that the idea of berating someone for their race or the actions of their ancestors (wether it be one or onehundred generations removed) is absurd.

Like I said this is my oppinion, unlike some others here I don't claim to have the absolute truth to impart to the lowly, this is just an oppinion.
 
Pachipro said:
So true. Whether Japan admits it's atrocities or not the whole world knows the truth. What gets me is that China is demanding an apology from Japan, but why are they not apologizing for their own slaughters to their own people? It seems like hypocracy to me. And the Chinese people are going along with it! Do they not know the atrocities comitted by their own government against their own people?


Do you really believe China will ever become a democracy? Not in my lifetime I think. The communists are too entrenched and have too much control over the people. Just look at the recent demonstrations against Japan. The "sheeple" are just following blindly what the government tells them to do. Much like years ago when politicians here in the US started smashing Japanese cars with sledge hammers. Soon the people followed blindly without checking the facts and a Chinese man was murdered by some workers in the US because they thought he was Japanese. Sad, but true.

the Chinese government does not really demand apology from Japan
it is the Chinese people who demands the apology.
the Chinese government don't really say much, because they don't want to damage the relationship with Japan. Japan stole the Diaoyu island from China and placed a Japanese flag on it, though the Chinese people keep protesting against the Japanese but the Chinese government really don't do or say anything about the whole issue.

China does revision their history textbooks, but there are lots of people who knows that their history textbooks do not tell all the truth, there have been lots of people who are angry about this, and some of them knows that if the Chinese government don't teach their people the truth about history, Japan might never apologize because they might point to our history and say 'hey you guys have not apologized for your past crimes, why should we apologize to you then?'
but then again, like i said before, just because a country A has committed crimes and , does not mean that country B can do the same about the crimes that they did against country A,
almost all countries have their black spots in their history, if a country who has not apologized for what they did, is not qualified to demand apologies, then i guess no country is qualified to demand apologies from the offenders.

I believe that China will have democracy someday, but I don't know when, it is a long way to go.
China can not have democracy right now,
in order to let democracy function properly, your citizens needs to get good education, they have to know that whats right and wrong, what you can do and what you can't do,there are kids who don't receive education breaking the laws, the citizens needs to know that freedom isn't free. there are 8.5 million illiterate people in China, second in the world. as you know that China has 1.3 billion people, in order to let each and everyone to have a chance to receive education, there are lots of work to be done.
 
Dream Time said:
China can not have democracy right now,
in order to let democracy function properly, your citizens needs to get good education, they have to know that whats right and wrong, what you can do and what you can't do,there are kids who don't receive education breaking the laws, the citizens needs to know that freedom isn't free. there are 8.5 million illiterate people in China, second in the world. as you know that China has 1.3 billion people, in order to let each and everyone to have a chance to receive education, there are lots of work to be done.
This rather poor excuse I have often heard from Chinese. Someone else brought up India as a counter-example for a working democracy in a 3rd-world country. I think, it can also work as a counter-example for this particular claim.
 
爱国无罪

NHK News
Anti-Japan Protesters Stone Shanghai Cosulate​

In China, more than 10,000 people in Shanghai are protesting against Japan's bid for a permanent UN Security Council seat. Some threw stones and broke windows at the Japanese consulate general.

Several hundred people, most of them students, began gathering at Shanghai's People's Square, in the city center, on Saturday morning and marched to the streets.

The number of protestors grew to several thousand as they marched toward the Japanese consulate general.

Officials at the consulate said protesters throwing stones broke more than 10 windows. Some people also threw ink, paint, or eggs, leaving the building splashed in red, black and blue.

Many armed policemen are deployed around the consulate, but they are not intervening.

The officials of the consulate said many Japanese restaurants and convenience stores were robbed.

A Japanese envoy in Beijing phoned a official of China's Foreign Ministry to protest the behavior of the demonstrators, and demanded that China's government immediately protect Japanese and Japanese companies.

Shanghai authorities are not said to have granted permission for the demonstrations.
Demonstrators Break Windows at Japan Consulate in Shanghai

 
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Jung Hyun, read my comments again. You missed the whole point. Your personal insults show what a low-life type of person you are and how nobody can take your arguements seriously. Wired? LOL, what a funny word.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But Japan and the CPC both have done cruel things to the Chinese people. Why does one party have to apologize to the other one?
 
I'm getting disgusted with what I just saw on the news...Chinese youth just saying things like "I hate Japanese" and feel proud of it.It seems like they have to read what to say, it's like the Chinese government uses the people as a puppet and those fools don't even know it.I'm planning to go to Beijing this summer to visit my friend who also is Japanese.But these things make me doubt if it's a good situation :?
 
Here are two very relevant articles from CNN on this matter:

The offending textbook is only used by 18 out of 11102 junior highs!
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/japan.textbook.ap/index.html
Though given away for free, the text is used by only 18 junior high schools -- out of 11,102 junior highs in all of Japan. It has been denounced by the nation's leading teacher's union, and is well right of mainstream public opinion. [...]
Only 10 public and eight private junior high schools use the textbook, meaning it reaches only 0.1 percent of the 1.2 million seventh graders in Japan.
The text's limited usage reflects many teachers' concerns over its content. [...]

Chinese textbooks are a great deal worse, glorifying the Communist party, ignoring atrocities like the ~30 million chinese starved to death during Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in 1959-61 etc. - and these are used universally!
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/13/china.japan.ap/index.html
[...] The books don't mention the brief but bloody 1962 border war with India that broke out when Chinese troops attacked Indian positions to enforce territorial claims.
There is nothing on the 1979 war when Chinese troops attacked Vietnam. The assault was ordered to punish Hanoi for ousting the murderous Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, which was an ally of Beijing.

Also missing:
- The 1989 crackdown on democracy demonstrations, when Chinese troops killed hundreds and possibly thousands of unarmed protesters.
- The estimated 30 million Chinese who starved to death during the 1958-61 "Great Leap Forward," revolutionary leader Mao Zedong's attempt to speed up China's farm and factory output through mass collectivization.

Textbooks gloss over ally North Korea's invasion of South Korea at the start of the 1950-53 Korean War, a conflict that drew in troops from the United States and other countries on the side of the South and China's army in support of the North.
The texts say only that "civil war broke out," without mentioning how it started. America is portrayed as an invader that forced Beijing to intervene by threatening Chinese territory.
A seventh-grade text also accuses the U.S. military of using biological weapons during the Korean War, repeating a claim made by China, North Korea and the former Soviet Union during the Cold War but never proven. [...]

As a matter of fact, the Chinese are absolutely in no position to complain about others!
 
Lina Inverse said:
The offending textbook is only used by 18 out of 11102 junior highs!
That's not the point. The point is that it was approved by the Japanese government.

As a matter of fact, the Chinese are absolutely in no position to complain about others!
It's not only Chinese, but also Koreans. Only because they don't complain as violently, you don't hear so much about it.
 
Hello, I'm new to this forum.
I guess almost all member here didn't read the textbook written by so-called "right-wingers".
But you can read the book on the web. (in Japanese)


for example, in P288...
[戦争の悲劇] 戦争では,多くの兵士が命を落とす。しかし,戦争の犠牲者は,武装した兵だけではない。むしろもっとも大きな被害を受けるのは,一般の人々である。非武装の民間人や正式に降伏した捕虜の多くが,生命や財産をうばわれる。また,国際法上禁じられている毒ガスなどの残虐な兵器を使用する国も存在する。これが,戦争の悲惨な現実である。
これまでの歴史で,戦争をして,非武装の人々に対する殺害や虐待をいっさいおかさなかった国はなく,日本も例外ではない。日本軍も,戦争中に進攻した地域で,捕虜となった敵国の兵士や民間人に対して,不当な殺害や虐待を行った。
"Tragedy of war."
In the war, a lot of soldiers die. However, the victim of the war is not only a soldier.
General people receive the biggest damage. Many of unarmed civilians and captive who surrenders formally are deprived of the life and the property.
Moreover, the country that uses cruel arms such as poisonous gases forbidden on International Law exists. This is a miserable reality of war.
No country did not commit murders and cruelties to unarmed people, and Japan is not an exception. Japanese army also murdered unjustified and maltreated the captivated soldier and the civilian of the enemy country.

(sorry for my poor translation)

...and the whole story of War in China and WWII is below.

It is also written, "Japanese Army murdered many people in NanjingArmy".
Do you think it's a "white-washed" textbook?
 
RockLee said:
I'm getting disgusted with what I just saw on the news...Chinese youth just saying things like "I hate Japanese" and feel proud of it.It seems like they have to read what to say, it's like the Chinese government uses the people as a puppet and those fools don't even know it.I'm planning to go to Beijing this summer to visit my friend who also is Japanese.But these things make me doubt if it's a good situation :?
It's the same on Japanese news. They might not be representative, but the demonstrators interviewed for these shows come off more as simple-minded fools than serious-minded politicos or even the slightest bit angry. "I will attend the demonstration" or "I'm going to protest Japan" like they were out for a picnic in the countryside. If this was truly about the textbook/history issue don't you think there would be people there who actually experienced it ? At least the parents generation if not before.... :?
 
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