Unpopular personal characteristics in Japan

Maciamo · 11 Mar 2006

godppgo said:
Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 窶吮?｡窶ｰﾃｮ窶ｹﾃ?ｽﾃ (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill

I strongly disagree with some of this list. From my experience in Japanese society, being drunk or lying is not only well accepted, but even encouraged. Never seen so many drunkards as in Tokyo (esp. on Friday night). Lying is a way of life in Japan, as people just cannot say what they truly think or feel. It's the most hypocritical society I've come to know.

I just don't understand number 9. Why would a person with good social skill be "hated" ? This is all the stranger that Japanese people put a lot of importance on socialisation.

However, I can understand that opportunist (esp. young ones) are disregarded by many Japanese, especially by the older generation (e.g. Horiemon of Live Door). Dreamers are also criticised (typically by the adjective "amai", which literally means "sweet", but translates as "naive" or "dreamer").

If Japanese don't like complainers, then they should do something about their women, especially old grandmas that complain almsot 24h a day.

Never heard that property owners or 窶吮?｡窶ｰﾃｮ窶ｹﾃ?ｽﾃ had a bad reputation. Sports coaches tend to be pretty popular if we look at football or baseball. The foreign coach of the Japanese football team is often greeted at the airport by loads of fans and journalists...

epigene said:
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot): There are a lot of debators on TV now. They're not exactly welcome but have won recognition.

Really ? Then we don't have the same definition of "debate".

godppgo · 11 Mar 2006

I think my translation of those traits to English is not very clear, I apologize for the bad translation..... especially number 9, I really can't find a suitable English word for it. I'll try to explain it.

A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.

Myself for example, when I first came to Canada, I was appalled by some of the behaviors of canadian students in class. The most amazing behavior I observed during that time was that student actually ask question in class, not just one, but tons of questions. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to raise your hand in an asian class (true for Japanese too) and expose yourself to the whole class. Students also leave class without teacher's consent. The act of standing up and walking out of the class is seem as not conforming to group. During that few seconds of you walking out of class, the attention of the group has shifted to you, the individual, while the rest of students are still functioning as a group.

I hope this gives a better explanation to number 9. I'll try to explain the rest better if I can't really find proper translation for them.

Elizabeth van Kampen · 11 Mar 2006

May a send you a broad smile?

The Japanese soldiers who took care of us war prisoners were almost always drunk, or on their way to be drunk.
They were always telling us big lies, especially about winning the war.

But then of course those prison camp guards were not the highest level of the Japanese people.

I am certain about one thing; the Japanese people believe in what they want to believe even in just lies.

pipokun · 13 Mar 2006

I just skimmed through the book yesterday.
I suppose the controversial no.9 here, may be "Yarite". I guess "clever" has close meanings as yarite, for both don't always have positive meanings.

Anyways, happy yarite argument on the Japaneseness here!

MajideSaiaku · 13 Mar 2006

I am certain about one thing; the Japanese people believe in what they want to believe even in just lies.

Same can be said for chinese, americans, europeans, puleaaase......the worlds just as bad all over, look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.

Maciamo · 14 Mar 2006

nurizeko said:
Same can be said for chinese, americans, europeans, puleaaase......the worlds just as bad all over, look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.

You sometimes surprise me by your lack of gradation and nuance in comparing national characters. It is obvious that humans can display the same traits all over the world, but what matters in comparisons is to determine what traits are more common (even slightly so) among what kind of people. That's why we can say that Americans are fat compared to, say, Japanese or French people, and it brings nothing to the discussion to ultra-relativise and say that there are fat and slim people everywhere. Statistically, there are proportionally more fat people in the US than Japan or France ! So I believe you can find some personality traits or social taboos more common in one culture than in another as well. What would be the point of comparing countries and cultures if it was always to say that so and such people can be found all over the world ?

gaijinalways · 15 Mar 2006

That being said, there are liars all over the world. The difference in Japan, lieing is more tolerated, as harmony is generally valued over the truth (versus America, where the opposite is generally true). Every society has its versions of 'white' lies (or what they sometimes refer to in Japan as social lies), it just seems sometimes hte Japanese are more bald faced about coming up with lies that are sometimes not even close to being beleivable, yet Japanese people are often conditioned not to question these 'variations' of the truth!

pipokun · 16 Mar 2006

What is the truth?

nice gaijin · 25 Mar 2006

I think that's a very interesting question, pipokun, but it seems to be a whole new can of philosophical worms that I'm not sure is within the original scope of the thread. Of course if someone is willing to pick up that topic and run with it I have no problem, but I'm afraid I will make no such attempt.

That said, I think you give Japanese people too little credit, gaijinalways. A lot of the overt lies that you mentioned are a part of proper social interactions that, as you said, value harmony over straightforward bluntness. That is not to say that Japanese people are conditioned to believe everything they hear: not questioning something out loud is itself a method of preserving harmony, but that is not to say that this altered version of reality is accepted as truth.

dreamer · 25 Mar 2006

godppgo said:
Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 窶吮?｡窶ｰﾃｮ窶ｹﾃ?ｽﾃ (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

Hahaha I guess I wouldn't be welcomed in japan then
Personnally, my asian friends like me for skill # 3, 5 and 9

Zenigata · 10 Apr 2006

godppgo said:
The book title is called 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堙個行窶慊ｮ窶罵ﾅｽﾂｮ by ﾂ荒窶禿倪?敘ｽ窶抃. Here's a link to the Kinokuniya online store if anyone's interested in finding out more:
紀伊國屋書店ウェブストア｜オンライン書店｜本、雑誌の通販、電子書籍ストア
I am not sure if there is an English translated version but the book was first published in 1992 so there might exist one. I am about 1/3 through the book and there are some really interesting observations about Japanese. Some I find too theoretical to be practically applied to the Japanese general public.

This book has not been translated into English so far, but a review of it in English is available on the website of the Georgia Association of Teachers of Japanese.
The book title is translated as Behavioral Patterns of the Japanese by Hiroyuki Araki (Kodansha 1973).

godppgo · 20 Apr 2006

After some thought I would like to elaborate on the number one character (opportunist) more.

Merriam-Webster defines opportunist as:
"One who takes advantage of any opportunity to achieve an end, often with no regard for principles or consequences."

This is obviously in conflict with the practice of Bushido which emphasizes a great deal on living and acting accordingly to principles. Even though Bushido is not having the same impact it once had on Japanese society, most Japanese in certain ways still live according to Bushido principles.

Another traditional Japanese value which conflicts with the opportunist character is the Confucius principle of Loyalty (窶吮?ｰ). One should be loyal to his master to the point which himself and his family are secondary when there is a conflict of interest. In return, the master bears the responsibility for the actions of his followers. In modern day Japan, this principle is best illustrated by the life-long hiring policy employed by many big Japanese corporations.

Of course, Japanese thinking is changing. Opportunist might not have such bad name as before but it is still not something being accepted widely by the general public. I hope this can give people a better understanding of the coming about of the unpopular opportunist character. I'll try to explain others later!

yukio_michael · 20 Apr 2006

nurizeko said:
look at the americans opposition to the legal ports deal, that alone has clinched it for me the american people dont know what their talknig about and just believe their own hot air.

Why in the world would people be concered about an Islamic monarchy who's own residents have little to no rights taking over ports of entry, contrary to the security concerns of the coast guard, all passed through by a president who admited to not knowing anything about it until after the deal went through, and all during a period where security is paramount, if not in reality, but at least still within the minds of the US population... sounds ludicrous right!?

Here's a trait that I dislike, people in the UK arm-chair philosophising about how absurd and "wrong" US government is.

kashiya · 20 Apr 2006

godppgo said:
A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.
Myself for example, when I first came to Canada, I was appalled by some of the behaviors of canadian students in class. The most amazing behavior I observed during that time was that student actually ask question in class, not just one, but tons of questions. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to raise your hand in an asian class (true for Japanese too) and expose yourself to the whole class. Students also leave class without teacher's consent. The act of standing up and walking out of the class is seem as not conforming to group. During that few seconds of you walking out of class, the attention of the group has shifted to you, the individual, while the rest of students are still functioning as a group.

I guess it applies but only partly.
I was once on an English course in Canada in a school, where I was one of the few non-Asian ppl. I attended two types of English course: normal English and business English. The avarage age of the normal English class was about 25 yrs, in the business English it were mainly ppl over 30.
In the "younger class" the people were really relaxed and funny! THey were talkative and asked plenty of questions and they rather tried to be outstanding in some way. For instance there was this guy Naoki who had his hair in an afro-like-style and was jocking around etc. In this "older class" everyone was really silent, no-one asked any questions etc. I felt quite uncomfortable there, as I'm talkative and because everyone was silent I also just shut up and sat there without much talking (which is so unlike me...)
In my opinion this #9 applies to the older Asian ppl, as I have never experienced any "shyness" among the young ppl.

pipokun · 21 Apr 2006

No. 9 was just a mistranslation.

godppgo
As you know, the charactaristics the author described was based upon a field research on a small village in TOSA by a person in the Meiji era.

However,
窶堙Ｂ hint: Horiemon, or Mr. Horie

godppgo · 22 Apr 2006

pipokun said:
No. 9 was just a mistranslation.
godppgo
As you know, the charactaristics the author described was based upon a field research on a small village in TOSA by a person in the Meiji era.
However,
窶堙Ｂ hint: Horiemon, or Mr. Horie

I really can't find a suitalbe English word to translate that trait and it seems I've confused many people.. sorry...
Yeah I guess Mr. Horie would be a good representation in this case.

Asakusa · 27 Apr 2006

Maciamo said:
Lying is a way of life in Japan, as people just cannot say what they truly think or feel. It's the most hypocritical society I've come to know.

Supposing that people really know what they truly -as you say- think or feel, I disagree this point of view. Not to say what you think or fell does not means to lie at all. I can tell something that is not the "truth", but I can be sincere, not hypocritic. Maybe we need to define the truth and the lie before. Again, this seem to me a manichean vision of life that I don't agree.

PS I apologize for my poor knowledge of english language that could makes me misunderstand something

Kyoko_desu · 1 May 2006

About #9

About #9, I suppose the writer said the word "good" sarcastically.
We have an expression "Happou bijin" ﾂ（窶敖ｪ窶｢ﾃｻ窶敕ｼﾂ人ﾂ）here. Literally it means "Eight directions, beautiful person" and it really means a person who agrees with anyone with anything and tries to look nice to anyone. And of course, it isn't thought to be a very nice thing, and we would use this term like:
Don't trust what she said to you, becuase she is happou bijin.
(Means: You should not trust her, because maybe she didn't really mean what she said. She just said it only to please you, or to avoide arguing. And she would probably agree the people who are saying the opposit things from you as well.)
:angryfire By the way, I would like to add one personality on the list.
I hate a person who is always bragging.

Kyoko_desu · 1 May 2006

A person with good social skill is usually a person who stands out in a group or a person who is not afraid of showing himself or herself. This kind of behavior is not encouraged in most asian cultures where conforming to group is what one should do instead of showing individuality. This is especially true for Japanese. This might be hard for westerners to understand because individualism is encouraged in most western cultures.

I think this kind of people are called "medachi tagari ya" ﾂ（窶禿壺?板ｧ窶堋ｿ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｪ窶堙ｨ窶ｰﾂｮﾂ）(A person who loves to stand out) and they sure are thought to be too much aggressive here.
After submitting the last post of mine, I noticed that I had missed reading this post by godppgo-san, and yes, maybe the author meant a person like him.

dreamer · 1 May 2006

but the point is that sometimes you stand out without wanting it...
I mean that for exemple, I'm one of the few asians at my uni who can speak french, and due to my function as foreign student council president there are often 5-6 people around me asking me questions. Would that be considered as standing out too much?

godppgo · 2 May 2006

Kyoko_desu said:
I think this kind of people are called "medachi tagari ya" ﾂ（窶禿壺?板ｧ窶堋ｿ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｪ窶堙ｨ窶ｰﾂｮﾂ）(A person who loves to stand out) and they sure are thought to be too much aggressive here.
After submitting the last post of mine, I noticed that I had missed reading this post by godppgo-san, and yes, maybe the author meant a person like him.

Kyoko-san!

Thanks for the translation, I learned something new today! I had a very difficult time explaning number 9. Is there a term in Japanese to describe someone who is always bragging?

Kyoko_desu · 3 May 2006

Hi!

Is there a term in Japanese to describe someone who is always bragging?

Hmmm, we don't really have a good one-word that can describe such kind of person.ﾂ I would say like ﾅｽﾂｩ窶督敖好窶堋ｫ窶堙按人ﾂ（窶堋ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｱ窶堋ｸ窶堋ｫ窶堙遺?堙絶?堙?）, or ﾅｽﾂｩ窶督昶?堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ人ﾂ（窶堋ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｱ窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙絶?堙?.

Crackpot · 3 May 2006

godppgo said:
Okay I was reading a book that talks about Japanese behavior and came across this interesting list of personalities most hated by the Japanese society.
1. Opportunist
2. Drunk
3. Dreamer
4. Debator (person who argues, quarrels alot)
5. Complainer
6. Liar
7. 窶吮?｡窶ｰﾃｮ窶ｹﾃ?ｽﾃ (don't know how to translate this, but it means person who has no real technical skill but uses talking skill to make a living. A good example would be a professional athlete's agent).
8. Property owner (person who collects rent and doesn't have to do real work to make a living).
9. Person with good social skill
Now when compared to my culture, I agree on number 2,3,4,5,6. How does the list compared to your culture or country's list of most hated personalities? Do you find the list to be an accurate reflection on present day Japanese society?

I think whoever got polled for that book were probably liars, dreamers or drinkers...

I was pleased to see maciamo tethering the thread back to an experiential level (a bit later on in this discussion) with his criticism of drying up a discussion saying something happens everywhere and not just Japan.

Anyway coming back to lying in Japan - it is something Im sweating about a lot recently. I still havent gotten to the basis for its rampancy or its full extent in Japanese life yet but Ive seen Japanese people lie at scientific meetings (in Japan in the Japanese language), been sure that the person being lied to was aware of this and always let it slide. I have participate in many international scientific syposia and I have never been aware of this before.

So I have run through numerous rationalisations to dig deep and somehow explain this apalling behaviour. But Im struggling. The best I can come up with is to imagine there is some link to the Edo era where your word was your life. People accepted it with the understanding that it was given under pain of death - if you lied and were found out you did the honourable thing. But nowadays taking your life in this manner is uncommon thankfully, put the acceptance of a persons word seems to remain - and of course this latitute gets abused by unscrupulous authority figures...

But it has to stop or the reputation of Japanese, at least within the international scientific community will be badly damaged...

I say expose the lying - espicically if the effects are far reaching

strongvoicesforward · 4 May 2006

My view is that lying here in Japan begins with tatemae. Those are superficial lies, that we may view as "white lies" (oh, Susan, your new hair style is great!), when actually it isn`t. Tatemae seems more prevalent here -- as if it is a daily thing -- a way of life. I don`t see it as deception with a purpose to full someone for self profit.

I think tatemae came about naturally in Japan due to the close proximity of living conditions and paper thin walls. It is just better to act as if you didn`t hear your neighbors fighting than act as if you did and then when you meet them outside greet them in a way that pulls knowledge off of whatever familiarity you have learned about them through close quarters. It probably started like that in small subtle ways and built and built until now we have this culture here of superficiality. It grates me.

I still hate the superficial comment about how well I am at using chopsticks despite the fact that the person complimenting me knows I have lived here for 15 years. I mean, have I ever complimented a Japanese about how well they can use "sit-down" style comodes to defacate? "Oh Junko, you really know how to use a toilet seat realy well and just sit so centered on the seat."

Actually, I`ve said that before, but sarcasm rarely registers with the Japanese humor bone -- unless you have a big squeeky red hammer. Then you are Jim Carry funny man.

budd · 4 May 2006

chopsticks?
they say that because that is what they would like to hear?
so they think that foreign people want them to say it to them
i never insult their level of english, but that's what they consistently apologize for
that is a good list, as far as accuracy imo. everybody knows that actors were regarded as yakza bitd rite?

Unpopular personal characteristics in Japan

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puzzled gaijin

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Resident Realist

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Registered

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Sempai

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