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Trying to name a concept...

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Has anyone else taken into consideration the absolute butchering the pronunciation of any name is going to receive?
I consider it every time I type pronunciation hints.
With luck maybe it will be only on the order of the American pronunciation of 'anime' or 'tsunami' and not as terrible as 'karaoke' and 'manga'... well, one can hope.
 

Mike Cash

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I consider it every time I type pronunciation hints.
With luck maybe it will be only on the order of the American pronunciation of 'anime' or 'tsunami' and not as terrible as 'karaoke' and 'manga'... well, one can hope.

I just shuddered at the thought of how 戦 would no doubt come out.

Karaoke only came to America after I had already left so I have very little experience hearing it mangled. Every time I do hear it I think they're saying 仮置き, which is a word I do actually use.
 

Toritoribe

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@ the OP, if you want to add an atmosphere of Feudal Japan to your game, I strongly recommend sticking to Japanese origin words.
影 can be used figuratively, for instance, it can mean "dark side of personality". 陰 has a negative nuance, so I wouldn't use it.
What comes to mind from 帝国 is Star Wars or Imperial Japan (from Meiji Restoration to the end of WW2).
 

WillyT

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The games that inspired this game are full of bastardized languages. One of my staff members led the first Japanese group down here. I led a hoplite group. We took the time to learn the pronunciation, but the languages related to our groups were slaughtered. Greek especially, considering their singular forms sound like plurals, their plurals sound like singulars, etc.

Perioeci (dwellers around - a term for non-resident aliens in Sparta) was used to describe honorary members of my group; we had a lot of hangarounds who were put off by the difficulty of our entry trials but we considered them family anyway. But, man... I heard them called pierogies (like the deep friend potato things), perokies, etc. And we used terms like Nautikon, Ilarchos, Lochagos, Epistates, Protostates, etc.

Steering back to the topic at hand...

I really appreciate waking up to all of the input today. This community has been super helpful; I'm going to continue to run things by you guys in different threads, even after I've learned the language myself.

Related to mdchachi's post...

I think I've narrowed is down to:

-Kokujima (Black Islands if that works?)
-Kagejima

What are the words for mist and/or fog?
 

WillyT

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I like kuro much better than koku anyway - we're referring to one of two currencies as koku and I don't want to confuse anyone more than necessary.

@Mike Cash , I try to avoid that image. I consider myself humble in my knowledge in Japan and it's culture. Majoring in history and minoring in anthropology, I tend to focus on antiquity. I enjoy certain aspects of Asian culture, having been involved in martial arts for 17 years (TKD - more of a Korean Martial Sport, Aikido, Krav Maga, and MCMAP when I was in the Marine Corps... I'd love to do Kendo if it didn't fall on a work night) however, I am quite secure in my nationality and find anime annoying. I'm not sure if it's the animation that I find hard on the eyes, the squealing girls, or idea of avenging one's family to music that sounds like the Backstreet Boys. What we're doing is far from the typical teens in Dragonball Z t-shirts fighting with wall-hanger katana. I do know that's one of the demographics that will be drawn to the organization though. I do love sushi with a cold bottle of Kirin Ichiban, and date nights often come down to a choice between Ruths Chris and Kobe. Point being, I'll shrug and own it, it's just easy that way, lol.

I pretty much have my decisions narrowed down, the only other word I think I need to make my choice is "game." In the context of "Game of Thrones."
 

Mike Cash

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I do know that's one of the demographics that will be drawn to the organization though. <snip> Point being, I'll shrug and own it, it's just easy that way, lol.

Never let it be said you're not a good sport.

You're doing something that gets them outdoors and away from their cartoons, comics, and keyboards for a while and for that you are to be commended.
 

Toritoribe

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I pretty much have my decisions narrowed down, the only other word I think I need to make my choice is "game." In the context of "Game of Thrones."
策略 sakuryaku or 駆け引き kakehiki
 

WillyT

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So it's down to:

Kirijima
Kagejima
Kurojima

Kurojima (60%) is leading on polls, followed by Kirijima (40%); Kagejima is at a big whopping 0; there is a negative air to Kage in the state from the old Japanese group here - people don't want to be associated with or mistaken for an older group down here that had a really bad reputation.

When it boils down to usage with other concepts, I think I'm personally leaning towards Kiri...

My big concern is "-jin."

[insert choice]jimajin is a bit long and tongue-twisty, so I considered using the shorthand and adding -jin. The problem with that is the most popular option comes out to be Kurojin, which is literally "Black People" right?
 
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to usage with other concepts, I think I'm personally leaning towards Kiri...

My big concern is "-jin."

[insert choice]jimajin is a bit long and tongue-twisty, so I considered using the shorthand and adding -jin. The problem with that is the most popular option comes out to be Kurojin, which is literally "Black People" right?
You're mixing the types of readings again.
kokujin is 'black people' or 'black person', but this is used in real life for people with dark skin.
Kurobito would use the Japanese readings and mean black people. It's not a real name.
There's also the slightly unusual 'kuroi tami' or 'kuro no tami' ... 民(tami) also means people, but strictly in the sense of 'population' or 'citizens', that is of people residing in the same region or under the same rule.
(Comparatively 人 - hito/bito/jin - is a very broad term, used for counting people, people in a certain occupation, for individual people as well as groups, etc, etc... i.e., almost any kind of use of the words people, person, or persons has a similar Japanese use of 人)

If you were to have island people it would be 'shimabito' not 'jimabito'. (shi becomes ji when going from unvoiced to voiced as hi become bi when going from unvoiced to voiced.)

Of course kirijimabito or kurojimabito are fine, and also
kirijima no tami , kurojima no tami .

霧の民 (kiri no tami) is, incidentally, the name of a tribal people in the book and anime '獣の奏者エリン' (kemono no souja Erin). They are, though, a completely fictitious people in a completely fictitious land, so you can use that term too without any concern about overlapping with reality.
 

WillyT

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Alright... let me see if I got this right, now I see why they say Japanese is the hardest language to learn.

I'm mixing up readings in the department of koku vs. kuro. Correct?

Would the Japanese or Chinese readings be more likely in Feudal Japan? Or are both likely?

Am I correct in my understanding that all 民 can be called 人, but not all 人 are 民? Eg: 人 would also cover "citizens" under its broad umbrella? And in that case, it would also describe a member of the organization.

And could you elaborate further on:

"If you were to have island people it would be 'shimabito' not 'jimabito'. (shi becomes ji when going from unvoiced to voiced as hi become bi when going from unvoiced to voiced.)"

What I gather from that quote is that Jima and Shima are both spoken the same way, but shima is the correct spelling. I'm assuming from this that Kirishima and shimabito are the terms I'd want to use and the correct way to spell the transliterations?

Thanks for your patience. I'm trying, lol.
 

mdchachi

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As Chris says instead of -jin (人) you could also use tami (民) or hito(bito) (人). -min (民) is also possibility. kuro-jima-min for example. -min means person as a member (i.e. a citizen or subject).

If you're going to shorten it, I'd go with the island-people abbreviation rather than the black-people abbreviation.
 
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Normally you don't have to worry so very much about the difference between Japanese and Chinese readings so much because normally you're not trying to coin your own words. :)

Japanese was originally a completely independent language from Chinese, so in general words with a Japanese reading feel older than words that use Chinese readings. The further back in Japanese history you go, the less common Chinese readings are. (Of course Chinese readings exist in all of Japan's written history, simply because Japan didn't have a writing system until they borrowed the Chinese system. )

This is why Toritoribe-san a few post back suggests that the Japanese pronunciation sounds more feudal.

Shima and Jima are not pronounced the same. The difference between voiced and unvoiced is simply whether or not you vibrate your vocal cords. (For example, say very slowly the English word 'shoot'... you'll find your vocal cords are still until you start the vowel. This is the same 'sh' consonant sound in Japanese transliteration.)

I can't think of an actual English word using the right consonant sound for 'jima', but in any case it's the 'j' of the French name Jacques or the famous palace Taj Mahal. (The 'j' of 'jelly' is definitely wrong. The guide on wikipedia suggest 'j' of 'jeep' but I'm not sure about that. I guess it depends on your accent.) Anyway the sound is this one,
Voiced alveolo-palatal affricate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'hi' doesn't go directly to 'bi' just by voicing it.
'hi' is not voiced, not plosive (your lips start and stay open) 'pi' is plosive but not voiced (same consonant as 'hi' but you start with your lips closed and make a little pop as you start.)
'bi' is plosive and voiced.
(These are the same as most American pronunciations of 'h', 'b' and 'p'. There are some h's that I'm certain become a different consonant in some British accents, but American accents are too close to home for me to immediately identify any exceptions for these three consonant sounds. They probably exist, but in in case the h/b/p consonant sounds are all found in the broadcast standard American pronunciation of 'happy birthday'.)

Edit: Oh, wait. I forgot (again) that the h in 'hi' is not the h in the rest of the row. Japanese ears and English-speaking ears both group them as the same consonant so they're the same row in Japanese kana and the same letter in English but they're not actually the same sound. 'h' in 'hi' is the 'h' of a British 'hue', while ha/ho/he are the 'h' of 'happy'. Of course this is one of the subtlest points of Japanese pronunciation but, well, there it is in the extremely common word 'hito'.

This page is helpful starting point for the actual pronunciation of Japanese... you can always follow the IPA symbol link to get a recording of the sound (just keep in mind that an unimportant vowel sound is included in recordings of consonant sounds just to make the consonant pronounceable):
Help:IPA for Japanese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually pronouncing Japanese correctly is pretty difficult to do without actually studying the language enough to understand and mimic actual spoken Japanese but having the right consonant and vowel sounds is an indispensable starting point.
 
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WillyT

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Second wave of requests:

Looking for Japanese readings...

1. Compound for "Moon Origin"

2. "Black Lotus" (As well as compound if possible)

3. "Moon Lotus" (As well as compound if possible)

Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

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本 "Hon" has so many meanings. I would interpret 月本 "Tuskihon" as "Moon book".

本 can mean "origin", but the reading must be "moto" for that meaning. Furthermore, "moto" can't mean "origin" in compound words. You need to use particles such like "Tsuki ga moto no".
 

WillyT

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Ok, now this is just for my information... I have a solid list of relevant names to work with and poll the organization. Thank you, everyone, for helping me out. This means a lot to me.

Before I specified Japanese readings I had both coming at me, so I'm still confused. Are Ei and In Chinese readings?
 

mdchachi

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Before I specified Japanese readings I had both coming at me, so I'm still confused. Are Ei and In Chinese readings?

Yes.
Keep in mind when we say "Chinese readings" it means the pronunciation that was originally based on Chinese hundreds of years ago. The reading is still 100% part of modern Japanese. It's simply the root of the reason why you'll see the same character read two or more ways. Like shima or tou for island. Both are completely valid Japanese pronunciations and you should feel free to use both as you see fit. It's a fictional world you're creating after all.
 

Toritoribe

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Note that the meaning could change depending on the reading or the order of the kanji in compound words. For instance, "Kagetsuki" means "Shadow Moon" whether the kanji is 影月 or 陰月, but 陰月 means more likely "Dark Moon" when it's read "Ingetsu" since "In" works as an adjective here. (Incidentally, the word 陰月 "Ingetsu" exists as the name of a month on the lunar calendar.)
It's really confusing, but 月陰 means "Moon Shadow/Shadow of Moon" whether it's read "Getsuin" or "Tsukikage".
 
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