The United States of America

[noyhauser]

"The happiness of mankind is best promoted by the useful pursuits of peace."
- Thomas Jefferson
I don't think too many non-Americans are as familiar with the ideals of the Founding Fathers as they are with the evil ideals of the recent American politicians (so-called). The Founding Fathers envisioned a nation where the rule of law was respected and all were co-equal under the law, and could worship God as they chose (be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, or even some variety of infidel). Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran, and Thomas Paine was familiar with some of the history of Muhammad. Abraham Lincoln, while he lived, seems to have been loved by more blacks than whites because he opposed slavery as an affront to the American ideal that all men are created equal.
This America, the Shining City of Reagan, was never meant to be the World's Policeman or the American Empire.

I think your premise that the founding fathers ideals are "corrupted" by many of todays "evil" politicians is mistaken. You're right that the founding fathers were driven by the belief in natural and universal rights, yet there is a clear continuity from them to our present politicians. During the revolution Benjamin Franklin and others claimed that "America's cause is that of mankind" and that they were fighting for all of mankind. While America remained largely detached from European state affairs until the twentieth century, it was certainly active in spreading its liberal ideals. The movement westwards and wars with Indians, Mexico and Spain reflected the civilizing impulse. The creation of a proper federal state in the 1780s was in part based on the view that America needed a strong central agency to ensure its unencumbered development. Then, under Thomas Jefferson in 1801 it sends a military expedition to North Africa to deal with the Barbary Pirates... partly on the justification that trade and commerce should be free and without interference. It then wages a war with Britain in 1812 for that very same reason. This is broadly supported by Alexander Hamilton, and is continued through the foreign policy tradition that bears his name. The present form of these trends are evoked by Woodrow Wilson, which became the basis of liberal internationalism.

So there is a clear continuity between the ideals of the founding fathers and that of the many politicians today on the idea of the spreading of US values, sometimes by force. They didn't view the United States purely as a benign power and a shining example on a hill.

If you're interested about this there is an excellent book by Robert Kagan called "Dangerous Nation: America's Place in the World, from it's Earliest Days to the Dawn of the 20th Century." It covers the internationalist impulse within the United States from its origins. Its worth a read.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The fact that uncivilised things happen sometimes doesn't make a country uncivilised, any more than the fact that I slept late at the weekend makes me lazy. I'm a conscientious person who has lazy days, just as the UK is a civilised society where bad things sometimes happen.

If your life is generally about more than just doing what's necessary to stay alive then I think you can say you're living in a civilised country.

 

[mobile1]

I wouldn't say we're proud of the wars, Hezam. We're proud of the people who fought in them. Which is understandable enough, even if you hate the war, you have to respect the people going to a foreign country to fight it. It's loyalty, and is highly respectable.

Furthermore, The Japanese military was not innocent in World War II, Hezam. Between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered between 3,00,000 to over 10,000,000 million Chinese, Indonesian, Korean, Filipino, Indochinese, and Western prisoners of war.

I guess I shouldn't forget to mention the human experimentation by the Japanese military. Could you imagine vivisection without anesthesia, or amputation? Would you enjoy being placed into a high-pressure chamber until you die, or buried alive? How about the tests performed on prisoners/civilians with plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism, and so on? Millions of civilians in Southeast Asia died during a preventable famine in 1944-45. Those are some of the crimes committed by the Japanese military during World War 2.

Japan did not agree to the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. Thus the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were carried out. It brings tears to my eyes when I consider the ramifications of those horrible bombings, but I believe that the Allied forces during WW2 had no other choice.

In regards to the Cold War? It was insane and had more players in it than just the United States and the Soviet Union, which the Vietnam War would fall under. God, I don't even know where to start with the goddamn Cold War.

Remember the CHINDITS!

 

[The Dunadan]

I think your premise that the founding fathers ideals are "corrupted" by many of todays "evil" politicians is mistaken. You're right that the founding fathers were driven by the belief in natural and universal rights, yet there is a clear continuity from them to our present politicians. During the revolution Benjamin Franklin and others claimed that "America's cause is that of mankind" and that they were fighting for all of mankind. While America remained largely detached from European state affairs until the twentieth century, it was certainly active in spreading its liberal ideals. The movement westwards and wars with Indians, Mexico and Spain reflected the civilizing impulse. The creation of a proper federal state in the 1780s was in part based on the view that America needed a strong central agency to ensure its unencumbered development. Then, under Thomas Jefferson in 1801 it sends a military expedition to North Africa to deal with the Barbary Pirates... partly on the justification that trade and commerce should be free and without interference. It then wages a war with Britain in 1812 for that very same reason. This is broadly supported by Alexander Hamilton, and is continued through the foreign policy tradition that bears his name. The present form of these trends are evoked by Woodrow Wilson, which became the basis of liberal internationalism.

No, I don't believe myself to be mistaken in the idea that the ideals of the Founding Fathers were corrupted. You mention the conflict with the Barbary pirates, but there was also the XYZ Affair, both instances in which American commerce was menaced by outsider powers. This was also one of the reasons for the War of 1812, as you say: British interference in American overseas shipping, pressing American sailors into service in the royal navy and whatnot.

Free trade was one of the ideals that the Founding Fathers valued the most, not some sort of armed imperialism to spread American ideals around the world. The Founding Fathers weren't neocons, even if they did have the idea of America's manifest destiny, which some of them obviously did (Jefferson, Paine). There's a strong difference between spreading political ideals and meddling in international affairs, as the U.S. has done since pretty consistently since the 20th century, or even further back in time if you take into accounts like the voyage of Commodore Perry and his squadron into Japan.

 

[noyhauser]

No, I don't believe myself to be mistaken in the idea that the ideals of the Founding Fathers were corrupted. You mention the conflict with the Barbary pirates, but there was also the XYZ Affair, both instances in which American commerce was menaced by outsider powers. This was also one of the reasons for the War of 1812, as you say: British interference in American over
seas shipping, pressing American sailors into service in the royal navy and whatnot.

First off, I'd like to point out that your initial claim is that the United States should not be the "world's policeman." Well a major part of the United States' overseas presence is to ensure the free trade, which its the main beneficiary of.

However making a distinction between Free trade and liberal interventionism is often tough. Nowhere is this more true with the War of 1812. Trade wasn't the only issue; the US pushed for the annexation of British North America and Spanish territory to liberate them from the "tyranny of their crown." Concurrent with arguments over trade was the view that 1812 would simply complete the business of the failed 1776 invasion of Canada. Thats despite the fact that most people in the BNA were loyalists and did want to live under the crown.

Free trade was one of the ideals that the Founding Fathers valued the most, not some sort of armed imperialism to spread American ideals around the world. The Founding Fathers weren't neocons, even if they did have the idea of America's manifest destiny, which some of them obviously did (Jefferson, Paine). There's a strong difference between spreading political ideals and meddling in international affairs, as the U.S. has done since pretty consistently since the 20th century, or even further back in time if you take into accounts like the voyage of Commodore Perry and his squadron into Japan.

See I think the lack of US "foreign meddling" in the 19th century had less to do with a lack of "will" and more with a lack of capability. From the mid 18th Century until about 1922 (the Washington Conference) the British held total naval superiority in the world's oceans. Most other Monarchies possessed significant navies as well, which made any attempt at foreign interventions impossible. Instead the US pushed a liberal policy (directly or indirectly) in places where there was weak control; South America (Monroe Doctrine), North America (War of 1812) and parts of Asia (Perry's intervention.)

I'm not saying this to promote or criticize. I;m raising it because it is part of the historical record. T that there were a multiplicity of views present, not the anti-liberalist view that some have suggested. Its absolutely true that what the United States strenuously avoided was having foreign "empires," like their European contemporaries. I think that view is alive and very well in the United States today. However the method by which the US should spread American values is a very complex question that doesn't have an easy answer, as is its providence.

 

[Hezam]

the Saudi's etc. etc.

You missed something here,The USA is supporting dictators in All Arab-Islamic world,The USA support the crimes,corruption in Arab world....etc.

But in the other hand :
the USA saved the world from the Soviet Union.

Plus,I like American people ( the good of them )...they are very nice <3

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"The United States of America is a brash, loud, selfish, self centred, one-dimensional, poorly educated, poverty plagued, paranoid, short sighted, pollution spewing, egotistical, sometimes inbred, school bully upon the world stage."

Thanks. But don't you have anything bad to say about my country? lol

 

[humanityissad]

yes I'm American, and I agree. Some soldiers did shameful things, and alot of peopl claim that alot of money was wasted on wars

 

[sbg711]

Some people here call America a "monkey with a grenade".
And indeed, if you'd consider most military conflicts worldwide that took place per the past few decades, America played its role in every single one of them.
Whatever America says becomes obsolete, whilst everything said in opposition is labeled as propaganda or a conspiracy. America's influence on the world-wide media had simply reached ridiculous heights. Take 9/11 for example. The case was closed despite the global dispute between thousands of engineers. Or 08/08/08, when all western news channels were blowing horns about Russia attacking Georgia, whilst shortly after the conflict ended, U.N. issued out a report where it was clearly stated that Georgia invaded South Ossetia.

Hypocrisy? Yes.
They say America is the strongest military power in the world. Yet, for how many years have they been tackling Iraq and Afghanistan?

About American presence in Japan. Japan clearly doesn't want protection, whilst World War 2 is soon to celebrate its 70th decade anniversary. I guess it needs not to be said that Japan had still been restrained from signing a WWII peace treaty with Russia. Ridiculous, isn't it?

From a gamer's perspective, when American game developers grew tired of nazi-shoot-em-ups, they've started tackling a new propaganda stereotype of Russians playing the bad guys. And it won't come as a surprise to me if soon the stores will be invaded with anti-chinese propaganda, considering the current state of relationship between the two countries.
I know, they're just games. But don't forget, that most of those who play them are just gamers.

Anyway, as I see it, taking China and Russia into consideration, America has been a growing bubble of power and influence for too long. Every bubble pops eventually, nothing lasts forever. Now, the main global concern is how it is going to pop.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

U.S. military probably was not so bad in WWII ?

If the US didn't help fight the Nazis off in WWII , you probably would be a German citizen now . Maybe if we only had tackled the Russians back then, you would not of had to wait so long to get your freedom back?

Uncle Frank

 

[Hezam]

I don't know why the American system need an enemy every time.
I feel sorry for the american people cuz i know most of them are victims of the Media.

"With us or against us"
Japan was forced to go to Iraq/Afghanistan,I don't know why the US system involve their allies in their wars !!

I have a question,Could the american people change the government ?

 

[Pavel123]

The USA is a federal constitutional republic, it comprises fifty states, and a federal district. Within it are over 309 million people. It has 3,790,000 square miles of land, and is the third largest country by land area and population. It is one of the world's most ethnically diverse, and multicultural nations. We won the revolutionary war on September 3, 1783 with the help of France, Spain, and the Netherlands.
We fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, Mexican-American War, the Civil War, Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Desert Storm, and the Iraq/Afghanistan war we are currently fighting.
As a country, our true identity is that of the world's, considering almost every American alive today can trace their ancestry back to a foreign country.
I'm wondering what's everyone's view on the United States of America. Have we assumed the mantle of evil empire? Are we religious nuts? Run by corporations? I'm curious, so indulge yourselves and explain how you feel about it.

United States of America. The country that every war in history is won by her. Yeah, right. They claim to win the WWII. While it actually was won by USSR.

 

[Hezam]

If the US didn't help fight the Nazis off in WWII , you probably would be a German citizen now . Maybe if we only had tackled the Russians back then, you would not of had to wait so long to get your freedom back?
Uncle Frank

I agree,europe would be a part of Soviet Union if the US didn't defind europe.

 

[Haruspex]

United States of America. The country that every war in history is won by her. Yeah, right. They claim to win the WWII. While it actually was won by USSR.

Pardon me, but what do you base that assertion on? I'm not saying the USSR actually lost the war, but they didn't quite win against the US either. I mean if you look at the decades long period of animosity, you will find that it ended in the USSR falling apart and even the 'official' end of the war in '45 left the two countries in a position where they were very much able to compete. The war was won by the US as much as it was won by the USSR at worst and at best, well, let me bring your attention to the number of dead soldiers and the general state of welfare in the post-war USSR.

Do not even bother if you are planning on throwing a bitter one liner back at me, or a moralistic cry, like you have in the past.

 

[Hezam]

United States of America. The country that every war in history is won by her. Yeah, right. They claim to win the WWII. While it actually was won by USSR.

No,actually i don't see USSR anywhere now !!

 

[noyhauser]

Some people here call America a "monkey with a grenade".
And indeed, if you'd consider most military conflicts worldwide that took place per the past few decades, America played its role in every single one of them.

Its Always the United States' fault, isn't it?

Lets look at some conflicts where the US didn't intervene: The Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan, Sri Lanka: They festered for years causing untold death and suffering. When the US failed to intervene in Bosina for the better part of five years, what happened? Genocide, ethnic cleansing and what seemed to be an intractable conflict. Operation Deliberate Force happens in 1995 and the combatants come to the table and sign the Dayton peace agreement. While the United States have made serious errors of judgement, its also done quite a bit to create stability within the world.

Whatever America says becomes obsolete, whilst everything said in opposition is labeled as propaganda or a conspiracy. America's influence on the world-wide media had simply reached ridiculous heights. Take 9/11 for example. The case was closed despite the global dispute between thousands of engineers.

A thousand? More like a few hundred asserting something that is so ridiculous that its laughable that you would attempt to assert it as proof. Are you really going to suggest that thousands of americans went out and hatched a plot to kill several thousand of their countrymen in an massive act of violence?

Or 08/08/08, when all western news channels were blowing horns about Russia attacking Georgia, whilst shortly after the conflict ended, U.N. issued out a report where it was clearly stated that Georgia invaded South Ossetia.
Hypocrisy? Yes.

First off, I've never heard of this UN report you speak of. Maybe you mean the European Union one... have you even read it?

For a person posting from Lithuania, I'm actually surprised that you'd say that the Russians are blameless in this situation, when your country was the target of an unprovoked cyber attack by them in the last two years. The fact that most countries surrounding Russia have been the target of intense intimidation and economic attacks over the past decade indicates a consistent pattern of behavior. Saying that Georgia was the only "aggressor" is just plain ignorant of the facts and the very European Union report you cite.

They say America is the strongest military power in the world. Yet, for how many years have they been tackling Iraq and Afghanistan?

What does that have to do with anything except that state power is actually very limited.

About American presence in Japan. Japan clearly doesn't want protection, whilst World War 2 is soon to celebrate its 70th decade anniversary. I guess it needs not to be said that Japan had still been restrained from signing a WWII peace treaty with Russia. Ridiculous, isn't it?

#1 Most Japanese do appreciate the US's presence, its more a tactical question about where the presence should be deployed. #2 America has nothing to do with the lack of a final treaty; it has everything to do with Japan and Russia's territorial disputes over the Kuril islands, which were annexed at the end of the war.

From a gamer's perspective, when American game developers grew tired of nazi-shoot-em-ups, they've started tackling a new propaganda stereotype of Russians playing the bad guys. And it won't come as a surprise to me if soon the stores will be invaded with anti-chinese propaganda, considering the current state of relationship between the two countries.
I know, they're just games. But don't forget, that most of those who play them are just gamers.

I guess because Halo Reach and Duke Nukem Forever are coming out the United States is trying to ratchet up the fear against extra-terrestrials coming to kill us?

United States of America. The country that every war in history is won by her. Yeah, right. They claim to win the WWII. While it actually was won by USSR.

Without the United States the Russians probably wouldn't have won WWII or the other way around. Lend-Lease was instrumental in providing the USSR the industrial and logistical base to fight the war. The US also single-handedly took on the Japanese, which likely prevented an Siberian invasion between 1941 and 1944.

I don't know why the American system need an enemy every time.
I feel sorry for the american people cuz i know most of them are victims of the Media.

And yet the US has some of the finest media outlets in the world...

"With us or against us"
Japan was forced to go to Iraq/Afghanistan,I don't know why the US system involve their allies in their wars !!

Because most of the countries felt a common interest to go, and they still do in the case of Afghanistan. Thats why most European countries have increased their involvement in the past five years, not decreased it. Also it wasn't the United States who invoked Article 5 of the NATO Defence treaty for a common defence; it was France.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Last year I read the book The politics of truth by Joseph C. Wilson. Ex ambassador J.C.Wilson.
He who was in Iraq, an American who saw it all with his own eyes. A real greate book!!

Thor you started this very interesting thread and you like to know how many different countries see the Americans.
May I answer you as a West-European? In general we see you as a very open and very proud of your self and your country people. Most of us like the Americans.. As our tourists you are more than welcome! We admire the way you and your forefathers (mostly Europeans) have build up your U.S.A.
We admire you and are more than grateful that you stopped WWII in Europe. Thank you forever!

This west-european didn't grew up in Europe but in the Far East, in Indonesia. During WWII occupied by Japan. We were set free (so it is said) when the two A-bombs fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I have visited Nagasaki in 2000 and felt extremely sorry for all those who died in such a horrible way.
Today there are quite some countries who are able to make much bigger and crueler A-bombs than those that fell on Japan.

Maybe Americans must learn that not only the others need America but that Americans need the other people from all over the world too. Not to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan together but also in many other ways. We need each other as friends, as partners but not as a big brother who knows everything better.

I have been more than a year in your country, New York. Fascinating city, very open and very busy people. Everything very modern and always very fast and in a hurry. I have admired the Americans how they could keep on going in this rhythm.
I missed our European side-walk café's where we can sit and eat with friends and chat for hours.
I missed history. In Amsterdam are still buildings in town more than 700 years old, in Paris and Rome is history around each corner.
There is now a united Europe, we don't want any more wars in Europe. The heart of this Europe is Brussels, that is where we are trying to make Europe a real United Europe. This Continent is very tired of wars since we have had too many overhere on our own grounds.
So please understand that Europeans are not really willing to fight in Afghanistan.

Warm greetings from a European towards an American!!

 

[let`s talk]

If the US didn't help fight the Nazis off in WWII , you probably would be a German citizen now .

Are you implying that the USSR would have lost the WWII if the US didn't enter the war in Europe? Sounds like a childish nonsense that I am not supposed to comment since as an adult I can hurt the kid.

Maybe if we only had tackled the Russians back then, you would not of had to wait so long to get your freedom back?
Uncle Frank

Are you saying the US should feel partly guilty for their behavior in Baltic countries' history?

I'm not saying the USSR actually lost the war, but they didn't quite win against the US either.

The USSR didn't have the war against the USA. It was the war agaist Nazi. Nowdays they tell you different in schools? Well,.. you can always try self-education, especially if you have the access to the Internet.

you will find that it ended in the USSR falling apart

In general it was a very good news for Russia. The USSR had too many beggers not only in Eastern Europe but inside the country too. Nowdays Russia works for itself and people are enjoying what they have. The life in modern Russian is completely uncomparable with the life in the USSR. It is simply much much better. Doesn't sound like a loss to me at all. Of course the number of social disasters that took place in millions of families across the Soviet Union after its collapse are very sad casualties that could have been probably escaped but unfortunately normally revolutions happen in less peaceful ways.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

I think that America did a more than great job in Europe during WWII!!! But in the beginning they were not interested although W.Churchill asked them several times for support because Great Britain stood there all alone in Europe since the rest of the Continent was occupied. It was Japan that pushed America unto England and Europe.
It is a well known fact that (also today) America has always been far more interested in the Far East than in Europe.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Sounds like a childish nonsense that I am not supposed to comment since as an adult I can hurt the kid.

Man, your tongue is sharper than a Goro Nyudo Masamune sword ! No way I will ever believe you are a Japanese female, LOL. I might believe you spent time in a Russian gulag being brain washed though ?

Uncle Frank

 

[MadamePapillon]

I'm not sure if this is entirely on topic but having just been back to America recently I have to say .... the country is buttf*ck insane. I had more encounters with crazy people and weirdos in a day that I normally have in an entire year ... from being cornered by a hysterically sobbing man, to being followed at night, to the roving groups of black guys shouting at me ("DAMN, girl").

America ... you are crazy and loud and sometimes really obnoxious, but I still love you because you make Funyuns.

 

[noyhauser]

Are you implying that the USSR would have lost the WWII if the US didn't enter the war in Europe? Sounds like a childish nonsense that I am not supposed to comment since as an adult I can hurt the kid.

Its not clear they would have won. Alone, the Soviet Union did not have the industrial capability to take on the Third Reich; that is absolutely clear. The United States' lend-lease program was essential to keeping the USSR in the war, in particular its logistical capability. The United States provided ALL of the USSR's train production and approximately 2/3rds of all the trucks used by them.

Think that doesn't matter? Operation Barbarossa in 1941 saw a massive loss of material due to the speed of the German advance and the Red Army's logistical ability was severely damaged. Without American assistance the Soviet armies would not have been able bring troops from Northern Fronts to launch Operation Uranus in 1942, countered Operation Zitadelle in 1943 or launched Bagration in 1944. Without American support, how would the Russians carry out the fast breakthroughs they did... by walking?

Moreover direct US involvement ensured that the the German military had to fight a three front war, and never concentrate its full force on Russia. The defeat in Tunisia in 1942/43, the Italian Campaign and the 1944 Normandy Landings, as well as the strategic bombing campaign, all made it easier for the Soviet Union to win. Remove these factors and lend lease, then its not at all certain that the Soviet Union would have won.


Also next time, I suggest you don't insult a moderator so directly. We're trying to have a civil discussion and your posting style sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[Hezam]

I'm not sure if this is entirely on topic but having just been back to America recently I have to say .... the country is buttf*ck insane. I had more encounters with crazy people and weirdos in a day that I normally have in an entire year ... from being cornered by a hysterically sobbing man, to being followed at night, to the roving groups of black guys shouting at me ("DAMN, girl").
America ... you are crazy and loud and sometimes really obnoxious, but I still love you because you make Funyuns.

Sorry but if someone from somewhere for some reason did something to you that doesn't mean all people who live from the Atlantic to the Pacific are the same guy !!
I feel sorry for what happend to you but please there are over 300 millions human beings from different places live in the USA.
You sound like "That guy insulted me,his neighbor is rude !!"


I hope this thread will not turn into racism,it's to discuss the positive and nigative sides of the United Status.

 

[justin]

I have a question,Could the american people change the government ?

We can change it through voting or if push-comes-to-shove we can take up arms against a tyrannical government. I pray it never comes to that. The last thing America needs is another civil war.

 

[Hezam]

We can change it through voting or if push-comes-to-shove we can take up arms against a tyrannical government. I pray it never comes to that. The last thing America needs is another civil war.

There are two parties in the US And nothing changed whoever win the elections !
both are worse than each other so i wonder if there will be any third party in the near future ?