The United States of America

[Pachipro]

I have an Arabic Bible in my computer,I don't agree with this Gov (gosh i'm gonna get arrested).

Please, Hezam, do NOT get yourself arrested. If you can see the links and you have access to the websites that show Saudi Arabia for what it really is, tread lightly and be careful. Your insights and views are most welcomed (at least for me) as they are rare from someone of your background, religion and country.

 

[Nuala]

Being arrested would not be advisable, Hezam. I wouldn't have anyone to argue with back and forth if you weren't here.

 

[The Dunadan]

'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'

President Reagan, from his farewell address in 1988, where he elucidates his vision of the U.S.A. in the same, clear way that men like Presidents Washington and Jefferson did.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Hmm, this is an interesting one for me.
I am by no means a fan of the government especially as an Iranian, there are too many things to try and just narrow it down. However the actual people? No problems really, yes there is that stereotype that most Americans are gun slinging idiots, but quite frankly every country has its share of idiots. That being said I have never been a fan of the gun culture of America and how accepted and normal it is for most households to own a gun, but thats a seperate issue.
Other than that I've always believed the concept of the states was great, a place where as you hinted any man from any nation can come and can eventually be considered to be an Amercian. Of course thats not taking into account the slaying of thousands if not millions of native Indians who were there in the first place.
There are many things I don't like about the states and sometimes feel its too powerful for its own good. However there are also many things I do like about the states, in Britian we are quite heavily influenced by American culture and even though I don't agree with all of it there are manys things I'm glad we did get from them.

 

[Nuala]

There is no gun culture. We don't sit around the table every night and chat about how awesome guns are. The idea of a government telling me that I can't protect myself is a government I wouldn't support. There are guns, and there are people who like guns and collect them as a hobby, but there are so few people doing it that I'm aghast at you calling it a gun culture. There are so many negative connotations that can go along with that phrasing.


The United States of America: We Don't Trust (Our) Government

 

[Jericho Desu]

There is no gun culture. We don't sit around the table every night and chat about how awesome guns are. The idea of a government telling me that I can't protect myself is a government I wouldn't support. There are guns, and there are people who like guns and collect them as a hobby, but there are so few people doing it that I'm aghast at you calling it a gun culture. There are so many negative connotations that can go along with that phrasing.


The United States of America: We Don't Trust (Our) Government

To be fair most of my knowledge of that comes from the media and the many reports on it, so maybe it wasn't fair to call it a culture, but to me there does seem to be a heavy connection at least more so than any other western country between American and guns I'm sorry to say. That comes from years of hearing/reading stories related to gun crime in America and it has given me and many others the thinking that America loves guns.

 

[Nuala]

To be fair most of my knowledge of that comes from the media and the many reports on it, so maybe it wasn't fair to call it a culture, but to me there does seem to be a heavy connection at least more so than any other western country between American and guns I'm sorry to say. That comes from years of hearing/reading stories related to gun crime in America and it has given me and many others the thinking that America loves guns.

Do you see anything wrong with owning a gun?

 

[Jericho Desu]

Do you see anything wrong with owning a gun?

Personally yes, thats just my view on it.

 

[Nuala]

Personally yes, thats just my view on it.

..Could you please elaborate as to why you dislike people owning guns?

 

[Jericho Desu]

..Could you please elaborate as to why you dislike people owning guns?

Is it that upsurd that I find owning something that was designed and made specifically to end a human life ridiculous? Owning a gun most likely gives that person a feeling of power for that very reason, as well as the excuse of security that many gun owners love to push forward. Of course I'm not saying all gun owners are like that.

I didn't want to say anymore on the subject because its rearing off topic.

 

[Hezam]

Is it that upsurd that I find owning something that was designed and made specifically to end a human life ridiculous? Owning a gun most likely gives that person a feeling of power for that very reason, as well as the excuse of security that many gun owners love to push forward. Of course I'm not saying all gun owners are like that.
I didn't want to say anymore on the subject because its rearing off topic.

Agreed..i grew up watching the American movies/Cartoons and it'a all about Guns/weapons !!

 

[The Dunadan]

"The happiness of mankind is best promoted by the useful pursuits of peace."

- Thomas Jefferson

I don't think too many non-Americans are as familiar with the ideals of the Founding Fathers as they are with the evil ideals of the recent American politicians (so-called). The Founding Fathers envisioned a nation where the rule of law was respected and all were co-equal under the law, and could worship God as they chose (be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, or even some variety of infidel). Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran, and Thomas Paine was familiar with some of the history of Muhammad. Abraham Lincoln, while he lived, seems to have been loved by more blacks than whites because he opposed slavery as an affront to the American ideal that all men are created equal.

This America, the Shining City of Reagan, was never meant to be the World's Policeman or the American Empire.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Agreed..i grew up watching the American movies/Cartoons and it'a all about Guns/weapons !!"

Did that make you more violent? lol

I would say that most Americans don't own guns, but currently a majority does like to have the right to one, if they wish. The number of guns in the US is misleading because those who do own guns usually own more than one.

You could call me part of our "gun culture," I guess, since I do on occasion talk about how awesome guns are. For instance, what load gives best accuracy in a given rifle (for those of us who make our own ammo), and which caliber is best for stopping a charging grizzly bear.

Guns certainly aren't made only for killing humans. Guns are just tools -- dangerous tools, to be sure, but still just tools. The danger element simply means you have to learn how to use them; and if you don't, you might kill yourself or someone else.

Doesn't it seem that a person's feelings against guns is proportional to their unfamiliarity with guns? We always fear the unknown or unfamiliar. People from the East Coast visit here and are terrified of our bears. To me, the greatest moment of terror in my life came when I tried to cross a street in New York City.

 

[Nuala]

I didn't want to say anymore on the subject because its rearing off topic.

According to you, gun culture is very important to the USA. Furthermore, you're really not saying much on the subject as to why gun ownership is bad.

"Guns give people a feeling of power"

Haha, yeah, and the same goes for sharp, blunt, and ranged weaponry throughout human history. But, we have fencing in schools, archery in schools, and we have hobbies such as wrestling that all teach us how to hurt people. Yet, you lot mature and responsible gun owners in with the mentally ill, and idiots. You do realize a kitchen knife is as deadly as a gun, right? And cars, oh boy, cars. Put a gigantic SUV into the hands of a 16 year old, hand them a cell phone, and you have a weapon right there.

But you blame guns for the actions of their owners. People kill people, and people always have a choice. They will make that choice with or without a gun.

"Guns provide false security"

I digress, you pull a gun on someone breaking and entering, even unloaded, and they're likely to run the other way, or do as you say.

"Guns are made to end human life"

See the first paragraph in this post. At any rate, the best gun to own is the one you never have to use, as with any weapon, be it mace, or a taser.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The idea of a government telling me that I can't protect myself is a government I wouldn't support.

As I said on the Guns and Civilisation thread, this is the part I don't understand. If you are living in a civilised country, the need to protect yourself shouldn't be at the forefront of your mind.

Guns certainly aren't made only for killing humans. Guns are just tools -- dangerous tools, to be sure, but still just tools.

The specific purpose of which is to kill.

You do realize a kitchen knife is as deadly as a gun, right? And cars, oh boy, cars. Put a gigantic SUV into the hands of a 16 year old, hand them a cell phone, and you have a weapon right there.

The primary purpose of a kitchen knife is to chop food. The primary purpose of a car is transportation. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill.

But you blame guns for the actions of their owners. People kill people, and people always have a choice. They will make that choice with or without a gun.

But with a gun, that choice is much more likely to be fatal. A gunshot wound to the heart is 84% fatal, compared to 30% for a knife wound (Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia).

 

[Jericho Desu]

I fully agree with Tsuyoiko.

 

[Nuala]

I fully agree with Tsuyoiko.

Instead of doing that, why don't you read some articles on wikipedia(for a starting point), and then write up your own opinion?

As I said on the Guns and Civilisation thread, this is the part I don't understand. If you are living in a civilised country, the need to protect yourself shouldn't be at the forefront of your mind.

We don't live in a civilized world. It's unfortunate that the same applies to Britain. Don't be delusional.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Gosh, I guess I've been misusing my guns all these years. I use them to hunt for food. I use them to target shoot. And I keep them in the house in case I ever have to defend my family from intruders.

But I've never used a gun to kill a person. So I guess I've never used them for their true purpose.

 

[Mycernius]

This is going offtopic. There is a thread for Gun discussion, as Tsuyoiko noted, please take this over to that thread. Thank you.

 

[Nuala]

This is going offtopic. There is a thread for Gun discussion, as Tsuyoiko noted, please take this over to that thread. Thank you.

Well, according to Hezam & Jericho Desu, we Americans are all about guns, so I feel that drawing attention away from this thread because there is a thread for guns is unfair, whereas the subject of the alleged "gun culture" of the USA is in need of some serious discussion, Mycernius. After all, we're not talking about guns, but their ownership and rights to own a gun in the USA.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Well, according to Hezam & Jericho Desu, we Americans are all about guns, so I feel that drawing attention away from this thread because there is a thread for guns is unfair, whereas the subject of the alleged "gun culture" of the USA is in need of some serious discussion, Mycernius. After all, we're not talking about guns, but their ownership and rights to own a gun in the USA.

Do not twist what I said, I said there seemed to be a heavy connection between America and guns but I never said that's what Americans were all about. If your going to get so defensive over something like this then maybe you should have just let it go. Anyway thats the last you'll hear of me talking about this off topic subject.

Instead of doing that, why don't you read some articles on wikipedia(for a starting point), and then write up your own opinion?

When I say "fully agree" I'm basically saying her opinion on this matter is equivalent to mine, what didn't you understand?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Thor, some advice: never argue with the guy who has the edit/delete option. You'll lose. lol

I've only lived in two countries for any length of time -- the US and Japan -- so I can't compare my home country to Europe (which I've never even visited) or other places. Compared to Japanese, Americans have much stronger belief in individual rights and more distrust of authority. In Japan I was continually amazed at how submissive the citizens were to any official with the slightest degree of authority.

I've also found that Japanese tend to be more fatalistic that Americans. If stuck in a lousy job or marriage, Japanese may simply decide that it's their fate, and put up with it. Americans tend (or at least want) to believe that we can be or do anything, if we try hard enough.

Sometimes this attitude gets us in trouble, as when we take it upon ourselves to try to fix problems in the Middle East. As support for our wars there falters, many people here continue to insist that we simply have not committed ourselves (troops, resources, and political will) to winning. We never want to admit that some problems or issues just aren't surmountable.

We made the same mistake in Vietnam, I remember.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

We don't live in a civilized world. It's unfortunate that the same applies to Britain. Don't be delusional.

There are uncivilised places in the world, sure. Perhaps you don't live think you live in a civilised place, but I think I do, for the most part. I wouldn't presume to tell you whether the US is really civilised or not, since I've never been there, but from what I see on TV, it doesn't seem uncivilised to me.

Uncivilised things happen in the UK sometimes, but for the most part, we are civilised. Perhaps the belief that our country is civilised is one reason why British people generally don't feel the need to defend themselves in their own homes.

What is it about the world, US or UK that you think makes it uncivilised?

I use them to hunt for food. I use them to target shoot. And I keep them in the house in case I ever have to defend my family from intruders.

But I've never used a gun to kill a person. So I guess I've never used them for their true purpose.

Re-read my post. I said that the primary purpose of a gun is to kill, full stop. I didn't say that its primary purpose is to kill people. If you use your gun to hunt for food then you are using it for the purpose I stated. You have to admit that target shooting is a secondary purpose; guns were not invented for that reason, and it's not their main use. If you're keeping it in the house in case you have to defend yourself, surely that means that you recognise the potential that one day you may use it to kill a person.

@Mycernius - sorry for the offtopic bit

 

[Nuala]

There are uncivilised places in the world, sure. Perhaps you don't live think you live in a civilised place, but I think I do, for the most part. I wouldn't presume to tell you whether the US is really civilised or not, since I've never been there, but from what I see on TV, it doesn't seem uncivilised to me.
Uncivilised things happen in the UK sometimes, but for the most part, we are civilised. Perhaps the belief that our country is civilised is one reason why British people generally don't feel the need to defend themselves in their own homes.

Great Britain, one nation under CCTV? I don't know, Tsuyoiko. Your country is so civilized it has sub-sonic weaponry in it's shops to prevent misbehaving youths from entering unhindered.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Are there still bombs going off in shops there in the civilized UK?