The truth about what japan did in China during WWII

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The truth about what japan did in China.., Have We Heard This Before

We are not against Japanese, but only hope Japan can face the truth of History. And prevent this (nanjing massacre) happan again in any place of world

The truth is, most japanese are probably tired of being told this. They
heard it and heard it. It gets old.
 
Probably YOU are tired.
"There were many ways of not burdening one's conscience, of shunning responsibility, looking away, keeping mum. When the unspeakable truth of the Holocaust then became known at the end of the war, all too many of us claimed that they had not known anything about it or even suspected anything."

"All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old or young, must accept the past. ... It is not a case of coming to terms with the past. That is not possible. It cannot be subsequently modified or undone."

"Whoever refuses to remember the inhumanity is prone to new risks of infection."

"Seeking to forget makes exile all the longer; the secret of redemption lies in remembrance."
Richard von Weizsäcker, President of West Germany, addressing the West German public who complained that "the past is grabbing our future by the ankle."

Take out Holocaust and plug in genocide; the situation is no different.
 
.."All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old or young, must accept the past. ... It is not a case of coming to terms with the past. That is not possible. It cannot be subsequently modified or undone."

"Whoever refuses to remember the inhumanity is prone to new risks of infection."

"Seeking to forget makes exile all the longer; the secret of redemption lies in remembrance." ...

-> Look at slavery in America, how long does Americans have to beat themselves about this

-> New generations, 2-3 generations removed, want to move on.
 
OFF TOPIC: US/Australian FRONTIER GENOCIDE

JackInox said:
slavery in America, how long does Americans have to beat themselves about this
How much did you beat yourselves about this ? Forgive me; I am not aware of much...???
Acutally, JackInBox, oppression of the Afro-Americans isn't everything involved here. The US public haven't seen all there is to see. In fact the huge magnitude of genocidal crimes in the Americas is just being studied. It is meaningful to note that the average citizens were involved in the process (Helen Fein). You might at least try reading some of these -- for how could you forget what you didn't know initially ? Recent findings might illuminate some major point about the ground on which you are living and some.

Some bibliography:

Benjamin Madley, "Patterns of Frontier Genocide 1803-1910: the Aboriginal Tasmanians, the Yuki of California, and the Herero of Namibia," Journal of Genocide Research 6-2 (2004)

A. Dirk Moses, "An Antipodean Genocide ? The Origins of the Genocidal Moment in the Colonization of Australia," Journal of Genocide Research 2-1 (2000)

Ward Churchill, "Genocide of the Native Populations in the United States," Encyclopedia of Genocide, Vol. 2 pp.434-437

David Stannard, "I Saw a Lot of Women Crying," Encyclopedia of Genocide, Vol. 2, p.436

Simon Wiesenthal, "Genocide of the Indians," Encyclopedia of Genocide, Vol. 2, p.435

Press Report, "Trail of Tears March," Encyclopedia of Genocide, Vol. 2, p.437

David Stannard, "Uniqueness as Denial: The Politics of Genocide Scholarship," (ed.) Alan Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique ? (Boulder: Westview Press, 1996)

Helen Fein, "Genocide: A Sociological Perspective,"

Frank Chalk & Kurt Johanssohn, The History and Sociology of Genocide: Analysis and Case Studies

N.J.B. Plomley, The Aboriginal-Settler Clash in Van Diemen's Land: 1803-1831 (Hobart: University of Tasmania, 1992)

Lyndall Ryan, The Aboriginal Tasmanians (St. Leonards: Alen & Unwin, 1996)

Henry Reynolds, Fate of a Free People: A Radical Re-examination of the Tasmanian Wars (Ringwood: Penguin Australia, 1995)

Truganini: The Last Tasmanian d.1878
 
peepo are the problem...
time to get rid of the peepo
let the animals rule the earth :D

really, Japan does have issues dealing with the past, but China ain't no saint either...I'm surprised they (China) haven't done more to project a friendlier environment with the Olympics coming up in the near future....this Japan bashing really is a primitive method to complain about past wrongs, and it is bound to backfire if it is kept up much longer...
Olympics were boycotted for much less before...China can't afford stupid media blunders that only hurts its image as a world leader when they want to bring visitors to Beijing...
just my two yen's worth... :o
 
den4 said:
peepo are the problem...
time to get rid of the peepo
let the animals rule the earth
peepo ? pipo-chan the poe-leece mascot ?
It has been suggested. How about the chimps ? Perhaps "peepo" are just too damed aggressive... Let us lobotomise ourselves at the DNA level, reengineer ourselves before the chimps and gorillas take over ! 😲
den4 said:
Japan bashing
Actually, "bashing" never works either way. That would be the lowest form of human speech, wouldn't it ? I've seen a fair amount of China-"bashing," Korea-"trashing," but I guess that's okay here cause your views are skewed anyway. People who are not able to hold an intelligent conversation on the thread topic by the book are not really interested, so may find better things to do than spending their time on real "bashing." I might add that an inconsiderate remark goes a long mile, unless, but of course, there's always the ignore option. 😊
 
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The truth about what japan.., oppression in America

oppression of the Afro-Americans isn't everything involved here. The US public haven't seen all there is to see. In fact the huge magnitude of genocidal crimes in the Americas is just being studied. It is meaningful to note that the average citizens were involved in the process (Helen Fein).

Americans have moved on. Best documentary; "How The West Was Lost".
 
Please make yourself comfortable. You are quite welcome to put me on ignore. :-)

edit: And this post is so offensive to the mod ? You know who you are. :p
If this thread belongs here, can I have my rep. point back you took away for the wrong reason, please ? 😭
 
One china has no freedom of speech.

Very few countries do - if any.

So for chinese people to express themselves its easy to point the finger at japan since the chinese government won't arrest you for bashing japan.

Thats an incredibly limited analysis of the situation.

Americans have moved on.

This is a joke right? You cant "move on" from something you never addressed. Thats like the abusive husband telling his wife: "Im not thinking about this anymore - I'm not gonna do it anymore. . .so lets just move on" - leaving the woman to deal with the EMOTIONAL scars herself.
 
WHEATTHlNS said:
jackinbox said:
Americans have moved on.
You cant "move on" from something you never addressed. Thats like the abusive husband telling his wife: "Im not thinking about this anymore - I'm not gonna do it anymore. . .so lets just move on" - leaving the woman to deal with the EMOTIONAL scars herself.
WheatThins, that is THEE MOST sensible remark I have seen on the kind of statements that say they are tired, time to move on, forget about the past etc., etc. *breathes again* 😌
 
Do you expect me to act like a person with Hwabyung (correct me if it's a wrong spelling)? But I don't know how... :)
 
Hahaha...Pretty close, pipokun-san. 窶ーテ寂?「a /hwa?byong/. I knew the fact before I read about it at one k-bashing site.
It's also called ナクT窶ーテ寂?「a /ulhwa?byong/. Isn't that supposed to be a disease that only Koreans get ? ;-)

It wasn't specifically meant to be your unsername. I figured you didn't like it because you gave me a red marble; so I changed it. Does it still bother you :?
 
That wasn't my point. It meant my conversation with JackInBox was over. Now did you not act like one hwa?byong patient on the wrong premise ?
 
lexico said:
peepo ? pipo-chan the poe-leece mascot ?
It has been suggested. How about the chimps ? Perhaps "peepo" are just too damed aggressive... Let us lobotomise ourselves at the DNA level, reengineer ourselves before the chimps and gorillas take over ! 😲Actually, "bashing" never works either way. That would be the lowest form of human speech, wouldn't it ? I've seen a fair amount of China-"bashing," Korea-"trashing," but I guess that's okay here cause your views are skewed anyway. People who are not able to hold an intelligent conversation on the thread topic by the book are not really interested, so may find better things to do than spending their time on real "bashing." I might add that an inconsiderate remark goes a long mile, unless, but of course, there's always the ignore option. 😊

I guess things are a bit on the misunderstanding side at the moment, since Peepo was meant as a parody of people in general, and not any particular person...as far as lobotomizing, that is a choice, although the way things are going, perhaps chimps and gorillas might end up doing a better job than the human species right now...
Yes, it is true that there is a fair amount of China/Korea bashing these days, as there are bashing of any nationality that is outside one's own sphere of concern or interest.
It is interesting that my views are skewed, since I figured everybody's view being skewed is a natural part of how we perceive things. I am honored that Lexico-sama does find my views as skewed, however, since it does show that there is an interest to comment.
But it is correct to state that bashing is one of the lower methods of communication. We can do without it, since there are so many other problems in the world that need immediate attention.

but getting back on topic, it really is too bad that Japan really doesn't make an effort to clean up its act where their history textbooks are concerned....would solve at least some of the bashing they receive from other asian countries.... :o
 
The truth about what japan did in China, good analogy

You cant "move on" from something you never addressed. Thats like the abusive husband telling his wife: "Im not thinking about this anymore - I'm not gonna do it anymore. . .so lets just move on" - leaving the woman to deal with the EMOTIONAL scars herself.

Good analogy if one remembers that
-> Abusive husband was caught and spent hard time in jail
-> Came out of jail a changed person
-> But, never talks about his past (his one weakness)
-> Had children
-> The children take the blame for his past behavior
 
Eating my words: to show true analogy

@JackInBox: Your analogy is flawed. Here's a more logical analogy
Deadhippo said:
you may not agree but i feel that i have no right to slap mr. x because his father killed my father.
Lexico said:
1) Let us suppose Mr. X's father killed my father 11 yrs ago; too late for a lawsuit.
2) Let us further suppose that Mr. X publishes a statement that says, "My father never killed him (the name of my father), and if he (my name) still believes that my father killed his, he (my name) is deranged and is a liar."

If the two suppositions 1) and 2) are true, then I am fully entitled to sue Mr. X for

3) slander a/o libel; consequential psychological damage
4) defamation

Furthermore, when new evidence of a criminal act is discovered after the 10 yr "delay to appeal" I am entitled to

5) request a reopening of a prior murder case or initiate a new murder case if it had not been pursued previously.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Technically, the Chinese individuals who were victims or related to victims of Imerial Japan's atroticious acts/war crimes, if they can establish new evidence that is acceptable and proveable in a court of law, are quite entitled to sue

3) Modern Japan for slander/libel
4) Modern Japan for defamation
5) Survivors of Imperial Japan for the original crime as proveable by the newly surfaced pieces of evidence...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

errata: "delay to appeal" should be "statutory limitations ナ津カ窶亙ナスナセツ敕ー/SIZE]."

Above argument assumes there is a statute of limitation of 10 yrs; however the following states that there is no limit to crimes against humanity and war crimes such as genocide, genocidal massacre, genocidal murder, and tacitly genocidal crimes.

Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes, 1970 (pdf)

 
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The truth, JackInBox, the truth. Always. Then let there be peace. I feel it's rather urgent. The old world where covering things up helped -- communist or capitalist, totalitarian or liberal, traditional or progressive -- is over. Really, I wish you would see the change. It can only get worse if we try to suppress it; it won't go away, we can't wish it away. For all of us to accept and to move on, we need to go thru this. It's not pretty; we all know that. Please help the healing process. It's like therapy; we need to be good listeners; we need to know exactly what happened to do that. The least we can give them is symbolic justice; we can't take that away. It's the only thing we, as outsiders, can give them anything. You can be the conscience for Japan in this case. I really hope so.
 
den4 said:
I guess things are a bit on the misunderstanding side at the moment, since Peepo was meant as a parody of people in general, and not any particular person...as far as lobotomizing, that is a choice, although the way things are going, perhaps chimps and gorillas might end up doing a better job than the human species right now...
Yes, it is true that there is a fair amount of China/Korea bashing these days, as there are bashing of any nationality that is outside one's own sphere of concern or interest.
It is interesting that my views are skewed, since I figured everybody's view being skewed is a natural part of how we perceive things. I am honored that Lexico-sama does find my views as skewed, however, since it does show that there is an interest to comment.
But it is correct to state that bashing is one of the lower methods of communication. We can do without it, since there are so many other problems in the world that need immediate attention.

but getting back on topic, it really is too bad that Japan really doesn't make an effort to clean up its act where their history textbooks are concerned....would solve at least some of the bashing they receive from other asian countries.... :o
Thank you for telling me your ideas in detail. I apologise for taking an ungrounded, accusatory tone on your person. 🙂
 
Dorian1977 said:
Hi everybody i like Japan and im interested in Japanese culture very much, as far as im concerned i think that during a war many bad things can happen thats the price that humanity has to pay everytime people go to war. As far as China concerned i think that Chinese people should forget the past and see the future, because i think that in their country there is not freedom of speech , and they still have the death penalty.


no, you don't forget the past when someone committed crimes against humanity like this, it is important for us to remember the history so we don't make the same mistakes.
you may forgive, but not forget, however Japan should only be forgiven if they show that they regret of their past crimes, and the Japanese government is still denying and covering up the truth.
we don't hold anything against Japanese common people, most Japanese people are good people, we only hate their government and the people who supports militarism.
 
lexico said:
Thanks for responding. I understand what you are trying to say; according to Rummel (thanks Bossel !) who compared murder figures by regimes, Communist China ranks 2nd in total democide figures.

This is basically the reason why China should not raise the issue of the Japanese handling of History to an international audience: they will be ready to point out fingers at China, and since Japan is currently a close ally of the USA, China will end up looking bad whenever this subject is brought up.

Since China is well on its way to reclaim its rightful title of the worlds' most powerful nation and will dwarf Japan even in economic terms in about 15 years, it is best to thread carefully and avoid rocking the boat, letting it instead sail quietly and surely to its intended destination.

Regards,
Keoland
 
"Should not raise the issue ?" ???

Keoland said:
This is basically the reason why China should not raise the issue of the Japanese handling of History to an international audience: they will be ready to point out fingers at China, and since Japan is currently a close ally of the USA, China will end up looking bad whenever this subject is brought up.
Again you failed to read the conclusion of the text, which said,
lex said:
1st: Imper. Japan (1931-1945) 2.48
2nd: Nazi-Europe. (1939-1945) 1.08
3rd: Soviet Union (1917-1987) 0.45
4th: GMD-China... (1929-1949) 0.29
5th: CCP-China... (1949-1987) 0.12

<table 4. deaths percentage annual (per year-per population 100)>

From table 4. we can see that it was safer to live in the People's Republic of China than living in the Republic of China (Taiwan), the USSR, Nazi Europe, and Imperial-Japan-controlled China or Occupied China.
Keoland said:
Since China is well on its way to reclaim its rightful title of the worlds' most powerful nation and will dwarf Japan even in economic terms in about 15 years, it is best to thread carefully and avoid rocking the boat, letting it instead sail quietly and surely to its intended destination.
Again you fail to distinquish the two distinct ideas of justice and profit, military might and exchange of goods, forgetting the past by the victimised and revising historical memory by the victimiser. Does truth have any meaning to you ? btw do you still hold that position with the Xinhua News Agency ? I have noticed the general downgrading of the reporting business, but it's sad to see the kind of ideas coming from you because there is no redeeming value in them. What happened to universal moral principles and regard for truth ? Does journalism not have any ethical standards on reporting ?

While you seem to suggest that the PRC "should be careful" so as not to drive away any business it might get otherwise, I do not believe the investors of foreign countries are in much of a position as reducing costs and instability of returns from capital investment remains the major problem in the current dcowsizing, restructuring world of industry. Sure Vietnam and India pose as competitiors, but it is a good thing for the PRC also as the responsibility of absorbing business at the harsh conditions is shared, don't you think ?

I would also like to point out that a significant increase in private property will eventually, as is evident now, bring out greater freedom of expression as well as greater buying power as they go hand in hand. Greater access to information and demand for higher level of accuracy will find their reflections in a more democratic, multi-party-type of local and national government, legislation, and justice. I wonder how suppression of ideas can contribute by encouraging the continuation in old-world thinking.

I therefore find your vastly simplified perception of the PRC lacking in substance as well as deficient in presenting any positive ideas for change. The sad face of conservatism as you have amply shown on this forum shall serve as a warning for aging cultures that lack innovation in social perception, but societies live and evlove as the people do.

Do you not trust the ability of PRC citizens to think as individuals, not subjected to ideological propaganda by the state ?
 
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lexico said:
Again you failed to read the conclusion of the text,

No, I did not. The comparisons were only made with non-democracies.
Appearently 'murder figures' for the democracies are never avaliable. The japanese interned in american camps during the war must have died of sadness, the boers interned into British concentration camps must have had a collective heart attack, and the indians basically decided to spontaneously move to the reservations and just vanish in large numbers.

Since the text clearly puts the Peoples' Republic of China below any democracy, it is plainly clear that any attempt China will do to call attention to the Japanese past will be immediately replied by the 'defenders of freedom' (read: people who live in the US and allied states) that China has commited many crimes and that, anyway, Japan has been a democracy [conveniently forgetting that the government party wins every election] for 60 years now and thus has a far better record than China.

In other words, until China is able to make its voice heard loud and clear, instead of letting the 'democracies' take over the lions' share of the media coverage of these incidents, then any attempt to call the westerners' attention to the Japanese past will be met instead with a barrage of criticism of China itself [which they percieve as a real threat, whereas Japan is not seen as such]. It is therefore conterproductive for now to bring up such issues to countries that did not experience a direct japanese occupation.

lexico said:
which said,Again you fail to distinquish the two distinct ideas of justice and profit, military might and exchange of goods, forgetting the past by the victimised and revising historical memory by the victimiser.

I read six ideas there... and justice is whatever the lawmakers decide it is. There is no such thing as 'Universal Justice', just the eyes of the viewer. Which is why you can, for example, do an abortion and still be a law-abiding and respected citizen in Spain and be arrested and treated as a criminal in the neighbouring country of Portugal for doing the exact same thing.


lexico said:
Does truth have any meaning to you?

"Truth"? If you compare most history books written 80 years ago with the modern ones, you'll notice that the "Truth", save for some names and dates - and sometimes not even that - has been in many cases changed almost beyond recognition by renewed 'interpretation'.

The "Truth" is always being rewritten by historians, so that the past can be seen with the eyes of today - for example, where once the Austro-Hungarian Empire was seen as a weak state due to its multi-ethnic compostion and an example of what should not be a country, today it is regarded as an example of civilization and liberties for a multicultural society, an example for modern Europe.

lexico said:
btw do you still hold that position with the Xinhua News Agency ?

Yes, currently my collaboration with the Peoples' Republic of China has been improving considerably, as my efforts to see that China recieves a well balanced view in the media that properly reflects the conditions and aspirations of modern China without any preconcieved bias, thus opening the way for a better understanding between China and the other nations, therefore creating finer opportunities for chinese operations abroad have been positively reviewed by Beijing, which in turn wisely saw fit to make an expanded use of my skills.

lexico said:
What happened to universal moral principles and regard for truth ? Does journalism not have any ethical standards on reporting ?

Try asking that to the american media, which has been doing its best to whitewash what took place in New Orleans and masking the full extent to which the United States lost control of its 'free, prosperous and happy population'.

lexico said:
While you seem to suggest that the PRC "should be careful" so as not to drive away any business it might get otherwise, I do not believe the investors of foreign countries are in much of a position as reducing costs and instability of returns from capital investment remains the major problem in the current dcowsizing, restructuring world of industry.

There is a great deal of misinformation and fear regarding China. The latest one being the attempt to block chinese textile products in the harbours of the 'free democracies' , despite the end of the quota system by the WTO. The strength of Chinas' negotiating position there strongly depends on its reputation - its detractor nations could, for example, say they are blocking the imports due to 'moral reasons', thus masking their fear of being surpassed by China. All efforts must go into denying them the ability to use any fallacious argument against China.

You may have noticed by now that I too, fight for truth. The difference is that I have a different approach to make sure that, at least, the ultimate effects of this truth carry the day, even if the words that say it do not.

lexico said:
I would also like to point out that a significant increase in private property will eventually, as is evident now, bring out greater freedom of expression as well as greater buying power as they go hand in hand.

That is a non-sequitur.

Firstly, there is ample freedom of expression in China now, with the exception of some selected political issues that would be used by outside powers and malignant people to upset and possibly block the prosperous road the chinese population is currently undertaking. It would also bring about unnecessary and false divisions between the population (like the major divide that has been happening in the US whenever they hold a presidential election).

Second, an increase of the prosperity of the individual brings about the desire for the continuation of that prosperity, and it is clear to all except the weak-minded and the malignant that anything that may bring upheaval to the society will disrupt the current prosperous tendencies. It is, therefore, by no means correct, nor logic, to assume that greater wealth by the chinese = more desire to bring about a foreign system into China (all the more because said system has clearly shown, in Japan, South Korea and Europe, to be quite unable to deliver continued prosperity to its populations. In the German case, for example, it is even a clear case of a system that promotes devisiveness and is unable to bring about a proper government).

lexico said:
I therefore find your vastly simplified perception of the PRC lacking in substance as well as deficient in presenting any positive ideas for change. The sad face of conservatism as you have amply shown on this forum shall serve as a warning for aging cultures that lack innovation in social perception, but societies live and evlove as the people do.

And I find your near-total ignorance of the proper realities of the PRC quite disturbing, clearly showing of a severe deficit of proper information can bring about a line of thought that can be extremely negative for all sides involved and posing even a very direct threat to the well-being of the population, as it shows that the dark face of 'change to fit the will and desires of foreign powers in order to keep the chinese population in eternal chains' is still present in many peoples' minds today. I am sorry, but the time of the unjust treaties is *over*. China will no longer bow to whatever the foreign powers want it to be.

lexico said:
Do you not trust the ability of PRC citizens to think as individuals, not subjected to ideological propaganda by the state ?

I daresay that the citizens of the PRC think both in individual terms and as chinese citizens. And the subjacent implication of your statement is that the chinese State is not doing its best to further the interests of China and of its population, something with which I totally disagree - and that the current rise in prosperity of the nation proves.

Regards,
Keoland
 
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