This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

Rape Of Nanking

We have very different standards of what is acceptable nowadays. I want to pick up on the point that allied troops were more important than innocent civilians. The sad truth is at the time they were considered more important. Look for instance at the liberation of France. Allied troops had lost so many soldiers that they weren't willing to sacrifice more. When Americans liberated French cities they bombed them from as high as possible with little accuracy in their targets because they didn't want to lose more pilots. In many places, they killed more people in one day than the Germans had during the entire war + occupation.

If you talk to people about WW2, very few seem aware of the atrocities committed against innocent German civilians, the fire-bombing of Dresden for instance (deaths estimates range from 40,000 to 130,000). These people were innocent civilians just like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not that either could be justified, IMO any attack on civilian targets should be considered a war crime.

The way we think about war has changed. People see seriously injured civilians and soldiers on TV, they hear British soldiers complain that lack of equipment may be to blame for lost lives. That sort of thing would have been unthinkable back in the 1940s. Most people believed the propaganda they were fed and in any case they didn't have access to the facts in the way we do now.
 

Yes allied lives were more important during WWII considering the fact that they were acting for the benefit of the world. It is funny that you contest the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki when you take into consideration that the Pearl Harbor attacks took place after talks of peace between the US and Japan had commenced. Also man woman and child were armed with bamboo sticks and any other implements they could find and told to fight invading allies to the death on okinawa. This was not a nation who was going to surrender. War is war in all inevitability. I think it would be best to not argue about it because both sides of the argument have there qualms.
 
How do bamboo sticks compare with an A-bomb? It's pointless trying to talk to people that already have their minds made up. I'm just simply saying that it's terrible that some nations have to massacre innocent civilians. Period.

Better watch your tone, by the way.
 
We could go on listing our could haves, should haves, and would haves, but this gets us no where. No one knows what would happened if we took any other tactic of offense so its no use saying America should had done this because you don't know what would have resulted.

Detonating an A-Bomb in Tokyo Bay seems like it would have had severe consequences. The bay would have become radioactive, killing thousands of fish and intoxifying fish that would later be eaten. A radioactive cloud would descend on Tokyo and surrounding areas cauing massive long term damage.
 
It would have caused huge tsunamis destroying much of the city anyway. when i made reference to bamboo sticks i was trying to point out at what lengths they were willing to go in their desperation. try to keep up please.
 
An air blast above Tokyo Bay would have caused tsunamis, but not huge ones. Yes, some fish would have been killed, and some people might have died of radiation poisoning, but there wouldn't have been 100,000+ incinerated. And that is the whole point - the power of the bomb could have been demonstrated first, before destroying entire cities.
 
Regarding the dropping of the A Bombs, I would recommend that everyone read

"The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb" by Gar Alperovitz, "Hiroshima: Why America Dropped the Atomic Bomb" by Ronald Takaki and "Hiroshima in America: A Half Century of Denial" by Robert Jay Lifton.

Both books cite the generals involved in the Pacific War and Truman's own diary to show that the atomic bombings were motivated by politics rather than military concerns. Most of the reasons given for the dropping of the bombs on this thread are retreads that have been debunked long ago.

That being said, there's no denying the warcrimes perpetrated by the Japanese military during WWII.
 
This is a highly misleading article by Kyodo:
Local Assembly Members Protest Manga Portrayal of Nanjing Massacre

The original protest text reads,
The issue raised was the use of an unrelated photo as a reference.
Ichiro Matsuo had pointed out that a man's cloth in an "evidence" photo is not Imperial Japanese army uniform, in a book published in Dec. 2003.
Motomiya knowingly or unknowingly drew the man in Japanese soldier uniform and cap, in the Sep. 22 issue (scan.)
claiming there is strong evidence that the Nanjing Massacre did not happen and no proof that it did.
Click to expand...
No such sentense in the original text. No sentence there that translates "as if it was the truth" either.
 
Golgo_13 said:
When is China gonna free Tibet and return their independence?
Click to expand...

Maybe when Japan finally decides to apologise for the war.
 
名無し said:
No sentence there that translates "as if it was the truth" either.
Click to expand...

Let's take the last point first. This is a rather long sentence (too long)

４２、４３号の本宮ひろ志作「国が燃える」で、所謂「南京大虐殺」を歴史の真実として漫画化しているが、本宮が参考とする資料など全てに亘りずさん極まりないものばかりで、読者に与える悪影響たるや計り知れない。

but this portion of it 所謂「南京大虐殺」を歴史の真実として漫画化している certainly translates as "The so called Nanking Massacre being made into a manga as if it were real history."

名無し said:
claiming there is strong evidence that the Nanjing Massacre did not happen and no proof that it did.
Click to expand...

No such sentence in the original text.
Click to expand...

Well the '所謂「南京大虐殺」' (so called Nanjing Massacre) pretty much implies that it didn't happen.

Followed by this bit
いうまでもなく、南京大虐殺は事実検証を抜きにした中共による反日政治工作の要である。
It goes without saying that the main element of the Nanjing Massacre is a political scheme unfounded in evidence put forth by the Peoples Republic of China.

Not to mention the bit at the end.

三 本作品は、本宮の完全なる空想であり、歴史の事実とは全く無縁である旨を「ヤングジャンプ」を通じて広告を出すこと。

3. As this work, being a complete work of fantasy on the part of [authorname] and having completely no connection to real history, we have sent this announcement to be put out through 'Young Jump'.
 
No, "so-called" refers to other name/euphemism, for instance "Rape of Nanking," "Nanking Incident" so forth. Not "as if" but just "as" would be the appropreate translation.

No, いわゆる南京大虐殺 wording has been used anytime when they do not completely agree with the death toll that CCP insists.

Followed by this bit "Political scheme" includes inflating the number of victims, not necessarily the total denial.

Having said things above, I admit that I made a huge mistake of having quoted an unrelated protest text.
Further researches made me realize that the "original protest" text I posted was by an unrelated individual instead of the group of assembly members. The protest letter by the local assembly menbers is: I stand corrected, should have been more careful about Googling (well that might suggest I'm not one of their minions.)
This protest letter does not demand the title to be pulled off, just asking for "sincere reply." As media reports, the protest letter does have a sentence saying "there is strong evidence that the massacre never happened and no proof that it did."

Reuters article makes it vague if it was facist politicians or more than 200 phone calls who made Shueisha decide to "delay serialization 'indefinitely.'"
 
Last edited:
Where is the honour ?? where is the pride for being a soldier ?? to commit something as cruel as below ??



In the next 2 - 3 months, Japan committed the infamous "Nanjing Datusha" or "Nanjing Massacre", or "Rape of Nanjing".

The brutalities included shooting, stabbing, cutting open the abdomen, excavating the heart, decapitation, drowning, punching the body and eye with an awl. Thousands of civilians were buried or burn alive, or used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into Yangtze River.

"Not only did live burials, castration, the carving of organs and the roasting of people become routine, but more diabolical tortures were practiced, such as hanging people by their tongues on iron hooks or burying people to their waists and watching them torn apart by dogs."

"Many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, nail them alive to walls. Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons of their mothers, as other family members watched."

"The manner in which these victims met their death was extremely cruel and diverse, so ghastly in fact that it made Auschwitz gas chamber appear humane."

Japanese invented games of rape and torture, turned murder into sport.

Soldiers competed in " Bushido - Killing Contest" and sent the number of murders back to Nichi-Nichi Shimbun national newspaper in Japan to publish.

"I have never been to hell, but there is a hell, it was in this city," reporter for the Tokyo Times told the killing in Nanjing.
 
Gaki said:
Maybe when Japan finally decides to apologise for the war.
Click to expand...

Japan did apologize and here are the facts:


1982,August 24, Prime Minister Zenko Suzuki.

At the press conference

"I am painfully aware of the responsibility for inflicting serious damages (on some Asian countries) during the past war." "We need to recognize criticism that (Japan's occupation) was invasion."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1983,January, Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone

"It is regrettable that the bilateral relationship (with China) had a very tragic period in the past history, but it is the fact and we have to face it solemnly."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1984,September 7, Emperor Showa (Hirohito) (During 1925-1989)

At the banquet at the Imperial Palace for South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan

"I find it extremely deplorable that the tragic past took place at one time in this century."



Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone at the reception lunch

"(Japan) brought enormous difficulty to your country and your people." "I feel sense of regret about that"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1990,May 24, Emperor Akihito (During 1989-)

"I can't help feeling the deepest regret when I think of the suffering of the people of your country in this unfortunate period brought by my country."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1990,May 25, Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu

At the meeting with The South Korean President

"I humbly feel deep regret and express forthright apology for the fact that the people of the Korean peninsula experienced unbearable anguish and grief because of our country's action."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1992,January 17, Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa

Commenting on allegation from Korean women who claimed that they were forced to work as prostitutes, during his visit to South Korea

"I'd like to apologize and humbly express deep regret, from the bottom of my heart, for people who went through a lot of hardships beyond description."

"I feel a lump in my throat."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1993,August 11, Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa

At the first press conference after he assumed the premiership.

"The last war was war of aggression."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1993,November 7, Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa

During his 22-hour visit to Kyongju, Korea (Short visit only to make a statement of apology) .

"As an assailant country of the last war, I'd like to express deep regret from the bottom of my heart and apologize for the fact that my country's colonial occupation deprived the people of the Korean peninsula opportunities to learn their own language, forced them to have Japanese names, brought them experiences of unbearable anguish and grief by army draft and comfort women (alleged forced prostitution)."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1994,July 24, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama

During his visit to Korea

"I'd like to express my apology from the bottom of my heart and deep regret seriously."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1995,August 15, Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama

In the announcement of the 50-year anniversary of the end of the WW2

"Not so long time ago, at one time in the past, (Japan) made wrong state policies and the colonization and invasion brought enormous damages and sufferings, especially for the peoples of Asian countries. I humbly accept this historical fact and express my deep remorse and heartfelt apology."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1996,June, Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto

"It is beyond all imagination that how much forced Japanese names hurt hearts of Korean people."

"Nothing has ever hurt honor and dignity of women (more than alleged comfort women issue). I'd like to express my apology and deep regret from the bottom of my heart."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1998,October 8, Emperor Akihito.

During South Korean President Kim Dae-jung's visit

"The days of my country inflicting enormous hardships on the people of the Korean peninsula. . . . Deep sorrow."



Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi

In the official papers of the joint declaration of

"Japan-Korea partnership toward 21st century" which President Kim Dae-jung "valued very highly."

"Deep regret and heartfelt apology for the people of South Korea."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2001,October 15, Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

Japan's prime minister has apologised to South Korea for the brutality it suffered during the 35-year Japanese occupation of the country.

"I sincerely apologise for the pain and sorrow Japan inflicted on the Korean people under Japanese colonial rule."

Said Mr Koizumi while visiting a former prison where independence fighters were tortured and executed.

The prime minister bowed his head as he delivered his apology to South Korea. Koizumi laid a wreath to honour Korean independence fighters.
 
名無し said:
No, "so-called" refers to other name/euphemism, for instance "Rape of Nanking," "Nanking Incident" so forth. Not "as if" but just "as" would be the appropreate translation.
Click to expand...

Like a large number of American journalists, you seem to have a misunderstanding of the meaning and use of "so-called".

It doesn't mean "another name for" but rather "incorrectly, inappropriately, or unjustly known as _________"
 
I would like to hit back on the A Bomb idea.
I believe that the Americans dropped the A Bomb on Hiroshima for the primary damage of seeing what it could do. Otherwise, why else would Americans drop the bomb and a previously unscathed city? Its like knocking over freshly set up dominos with a bowling ball...
Another reason why the Americans dropped the bomb was to show the Soviets that when the war was over, the Soviets should not mess with the United States.
The final reason, which I am skeptical of, is to avoid mainland invasion. However, consider this when you say "hundreds of thousands of allied troops would have perished". This was based on previous battles reaching up to mainland Japan. But at this point, the allies had cut off all supply lines to Japan and made food, medical and weaponry supplies difficult to come by. How hard to starving people fight? The United States with its "infinite resources" could have easily come up with a strategy to make Japan starve to death with dead supply lines.

Also, let me bring it to Nagasaki. On August 6th, the Emperor witnessed the awesome power of the bomb. There is DOCUMENTED evidence that the emperor was ready to surrender. This was expressed on August 7th, I believe, when he witnessed Soviet troops line up along the borders of Manchuria, Korea and many other East Asian nations ready to invade Japan. So if one says that Hiroshima was necessary (which it wasnt) then you cannot say that Nagasaki was also when there is documented evidence of surrender that Truman knew about before the August 9th bombing.

This is not to say that Americans are bad people for the bomb. This is simply describes human nature and the nature of warfare. I'm sure if the Japanese had the bomb, or the Germans, they would not find a reason to use it on Americans, they would simple drop it without regard for civilians or military personnel.

Sorry for the diversion on the Rape of Nanking, but I get very discouraged when people do not know the facts on the A Bomb.
 
mikecash said:
Like a large number of American journalists, you seem to have a misunderstanding of the meaning and use of "so-called".

It doesn't mean "another name for" but rather "incorrectly, inappropriately, or unjustly known as _________"
Click to expand...
which raises the issue of questionable translation: "so-called" would be an incorrect word choice for 所謂, if "so-called" is not "another name for" but "incorrectly, inappropriately, or unjustly known as _________."
Link

Note that it was not me who provided the (mis)translation.
 
"The prime minister bowed his head as he delivered his apology to South Korea. Koizumi laid a wreath to honour Korean independence fighters."

The irony is that Japanese PM continued to worship warshrine which hold several first degree criminals that some were not even prosecuted. When you have such a thing happening, It continued to bring back the memory of sorrow to the affected nations. It's as if German decides to build a statue of Hitler for honor of his past deed , and disregard the feeling of other EU nations .
 
Warshrine said:
It's as if German decides to build a statue of Hitler for honor of his past deed , and disregard the feeling of other EU nations .
Click to expand...
Not entirely. It's as if Germany built a memorial for all (or a great number of) war "heroes" who died fighting for Germany & then included some war criminals in that memorial.
What actually happens is that all war dead are honoured, no matter who. Hitler et al. are not explicitly mentioned, but usually they are not explicitly excluded either.
 
Wang said:
Japan did apologize and here are the facts:

-snip-
Click to expand...

Most of those quotes are just political obligation apologies, if the apology was sincere people would have moved on years ago.

Most other developed coutries tend to clean up after they mess up, Japan seems to have only just sweeped their dirties under a carpet.
 
Last edited:

Some of these quotes are sincere though and should be recognized as such. Whether you think it is good enough or not is a opinion.
 
300,000 killed are widely accepted, but it is just because the Chinese government informed this number.
Even according to the Tokyo trial, more than 200.000 or 100,000 were killed but not 300.000. Nobody knows where the number of 300,000 came from. Everybody knows China's gov. is not trustful since she denied the existence of the Tiananmen Square Incident.

Admittedly, the Japanese Army executed about 40,000 people who were either POWs or suspects of guerilla war, including innocent citizens. But I do not think there was much raping or murder besides execution. There are several reasons for it. For example, according to the diary of Minnie Vautrin,a.k.a. the goddess of Nanking, about 2,000 wives sent a plea for releasing their husbands who were innocent and misjudged as guerillas, but only 30 people were released. Then think about it. If China gov. statement were correct,2.000 wives would send a plea for releasing innocent suspects where more than half of the population had been indiscriminately killed.

About the picture which Luk shows,how can it be believed it is real?
You can see the massive amount of skulls, but why are they perfectly divided from their bodies? As I said, Japanese troops executed 40,000 people; if it were the accurate picture, there would be no problem. But this picture would have been made to scare people or make people hate Japan. The Japanese Army asked some organisations to bury the dead people. If it were real, the organisations would have burnt the dead bodies until they became perfect skulls and bones, displayed them and taken pictures.

Unfortunately, people are pretty likely to believe pictures without any doubt, and pro-massacre websites, books and movies use many images mentioned to be fake, combined photographs and with wrong explanations. It would help if YOu thought about when, on what occasions, why and who took those pictures.

Could you find even a single website which links to the con-massacre website?
Could you find English books that logically explain how the Japanese denial of the Nanking massacre is wrong?
They say, "Japan is whitewashing her war crimes" or "Japan does not apologise sincerely."
If Japan claimed that America killed more than 2,000,000 people with atomic bombs, no matter how they feel about nuclear bombs, every American would deny it.
 
You dont exactly go into someone's house for no reason kick them in the nuts and expect them to forgive you.

Even though i'm against the war in Iraq, at least the British and Americans have sent over people to help rebuild.
50 years down the line left over Japanese weapons are still exploding in China, and you expect them to be happy about that ???

To be honest i dont really care about specific details and numbers, the fact is Japan invaded China for no good reason and didnt do a very good job fixing things up afterwards.

And yes this is an opinion.
 
urecco said:
Admittedly, the Japanese army executed about 40,000 people who were either POWs or suspects of guerilla war, including innocent citizens. But I do not think there was a massive raping or murder besides execution.
Click to expand...
There is enough evidence for mass rape & mass murder. Look, e.g. at the Rabe diaries.

About the number of victims: Would it make much difference if the Japanese murdered 40000, 200,000 or 300,000? I'm all for objective research into the actual number since I've never understood that some people make a dogma of history. Yet I can't see how this would change the view of the perpetrators. Whether someone is responsible for 4,000 or 4,000,000 murders, it's still a mass murderer.

Could you find a single website that links to the con-massacre website?
Could you find books written in English that logically explain how the Japanese denial of the Nanking massacre is wrong?
Click to expand...
What is a con-massacre website?
What would you call "explain logically"? The denial is wrong because a massacre happened. The number of victims can be discussed, but the fact of a massacre remains.

Here is a good article explaining the 3 Japanese schools of thought regarding the massacre:


Quote:
"Interpretations of the Nanjing Incident in Japan are usually summarised as falling into three schools of thought,[12] defined by the number of people each argues were massacred in Nanjing (Hata Ikuhiko 1993). They are the Nanjing Incident as Illusion School (maboroshi-ha), which argues that at most several thousand were massacred in Nanjing; the Middle-of-the-Road School (chﾃｼkan-ha), which argues that between 13,000 (in the case of Itakura Yoshiaki) and 38,000-42,000 (in the case of Hata Ikuhiko) were massacred; and the Great Massacre School (daigyakusatsu-ha), which argues, in the words of one of its leading advocates, Kasahara Tokushi, that "over 100,000, perhaps nearly 200,000 or even more", were killed in Nanjing. [13] The English language debate does not have as great a range of opinions. However, Masahiro Yamamoto clearly falls within the Middle-of-the-Road School, and Iris Chang, even more, argues for a massacre on a far greater scale than any member of the Great Massacre School. Chinese language sources are closer to Iris Chang than the three Japanese groups."

Note that the writer is not a historian, but the article is still worth reading.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Chinese girls raped in Japan
2 3
Replies
66
Views
42K
diceke
D
The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang
2 3
Replies
66
Views
17K
SevenStarsHK2N
S
B
U.S. Marine arrested on suspicion of raping 14-year-old girl in Okinawa
2 3 4
Replies
92
Views
23K
Hezam
After you watch the film "Nanking" ,you will sure say:...
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
15K
anomouse
A
ARTICLE: Three Rapes: The Status of Forces Agreement and Okinawa
Replies
4
Views
7K
Sukotto
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…