Racism in Japan?

[Jent]

I probably put this is the wrong place... :?

The question I really want to ask, is, is racism as prevalent in other countries as it is here in the states? I'm sure it's everywhere, I was just curious. And especially in Japan I'm asking. It seems like there is quite a bit of it in the states, and that could just be because where I live, I don't know. Fill me in.

 

[sgt. Pepper]

Any country? Ok, i can give you what i know of racism in Sweden.

The racism-situation is a little tense here, most Swedes fear being called a racist (if you have any small negative remark about an immigrant/immigrants or the way the goverment handles them, then you will be called a racist by hundreds of idiots) and criticism against immigrants is taboo. But much of this is the goverment fault, they haven't done much to incorporate the immigrants into society, they mostly just bunch them up in different places, that's gets dominated by these jobless immigrants (and many of them turns to crime because of their situation). So there is a lot of "sneak-racism" (extremely ugly direct-translation) here, but not many dare to voice it. i think we take in more immigrants than we can handle, and that we should stop taking in more until we have stabilised the current situation (given them jobs and so on).

Heh, now i made it sound like it was a big problem here, but it isn't as bad as i made it sound. I've had no problems with racists, racism or immigrants.

Svenska: immigrants är invandrare, va?

 

[Ma Cherie]

I probably put this is the wrong place... :?

The question I really want to ask, is, is racism as prevalent in other countries as it is here in the states? I'm sure it's everywhere, I was just curious. And especially in Japan I'm asking. It seems like there is quite a bit of it in the states, and that could just be because where I live, I don't know. Fill me in.

Racism in Japan, well I don't think racism is the right word for it. However, it seems to me that Japan is infamous for discrimintaing against foriengners. I don't know if this has answered your question. :?

 

[lexico]

Is racism as prevalent in other countries as it is here in the states ?

I have no first hands experience living in Japan. But the last part of your question is interesting. With some criticism that the US is deeply biased against non-WASP ethnic groups, isn't the US at the forefront of abolishing racial discrimination in comparison ? Actively discussing racial issues might make the US appear to have more racism; but the truth might be that the US has been dealing with the problem and is working on the unsolved remainders of it whereas some other country that might seem quiet on racism might be very racist in reality, just never discussing it because the problem is never challenged. (Try the search function on the top menu bar with the keyword *discrimination* and you might find older discussions on it.)

 

[Bramicus]

It's not accurate to call America a racist country, but it really depends on what you mean by the word racism. Racism actually has two components. The first is the feeling or belief that people of different ethnicities have innate differences. The second is the actual dislike, anger, and conflict that occurs when different ethnicities clash.

America, precisely because it comprises hundreds of different cultures and dozens of different ethnicities, is probably the country in the entire world where the first component of racism, the feeling of any innate difference, is the least. By that measure, Americans are the least racist, because they are the most likely to consider people of different ethnicities equal, because they're the most used to dealing with them on a daily basis. Americans may be more vocal and expressing their opinions if they think there are differences, but that is a different matter.

On the other hand, countries that have very few racial or ethnic minorities may seem to have very little racism because there is very little opportunity for conflict -- precisely because there is such little mixing of ethnicities. When there is little occasion for people to discuss or even deal with their xenophobic feelings, there is no conflict and therefore the people of those countries can consider themselves quite "enlightened" and look down their noses at countries where there is racial conflict. These countries may have very little of that second component, because there is little mixing of ethnicities and therefore little occasion for conflict or anger, yet the first component -- innate feelings of superiority or inferiority assigned to race or ethnicity -- may be the strongest there. And as we have seen, once these countries start accruing sizable "immigrant" communities of different racial and/or ethnic backgrounds, they suddenly discover that enlightenment can be much easier in theory than in practice.

 

[Jent]

On the other hand, countries that have very few racial or ethnic minorities may seem to have very little racism because there is very little opportunity for conflict -- precisely because there is such little mixing of ethnicities. When there is little occasion for people to discuss or even deal with their xenophobic feelings, there is no conflict and therefore the people of those countries can consider themselves quite "enlightened" and look down their noses at countries where there is racial conflict. These countries may have very little of that second component, because there is little mixing of ethnicities and therefore little occasion for conflict or anger, yet the first component -- innate feelings of superiority or inferiority assigned to race or ethnicity -- may be the strongest there. And as we have seen, once these countries start accruing sizable "immigrant" communities of different racial and/or ethnic backgrounds, they suddenly discover that enlightenment can be much easier in theory than in practice.

Interesting. I always thought that homogeneous societies showed much more prejudice and discrimination towards poeple that are different. I never really knew, I was sort of hoping that someone that actually lived in Japan could tell me. I guess the reason I ask, is because I've heard very little of it, but I hear about it in the country I live in quite often. It really angers me to hear some one use racial slurs towards someone of a different ethnicity, simply because they are ignorant, or uneducated. That's really what I feel racism boils down to, a lack of education and understanding.

...whereas some other country that might seem quiet on racism might be very racist in reality, just never discussing it because the problem is never challenged.

Very good point. I can see where that might explain some things about how racist it seems that Americans are. I never really hear about it in other countries, but like you said, it's just doesn't really come up there.

So then, Japanese really aren't racist towards gaijin, it's more of a prejudice?

 

[PopCulturePooka]

I definately think theres a lot of racism in Japan. Not just prejudice, but racism.

 

[lexico]

I can see where that might explain some things about how racist it seems that Americans are. I never really hear about it in other countries, but like you said, it's just doesn't really come up there.

So then, Japanese really aren't racist towards gaijin, it's more of a prejudice?

You lost me here, Jent. There are some basic assumptions not stated which you assume that I know, but I really don't. What do you mean by your concluding question ? Given that

1) Racism is much talked about in the US, and that
2) Racism is not much talked about in Japan.

I suggested that
1) cannot be evidence that US society is highly racist, or that
2) cannot be evidence that Japanese society is not racist. Now that is all I said. How did you draw from this premise 2) that I am saying "Japanese really aren't racist towards gaijin, but it's more of a prejudice ?" :?

 

[lexico]

It's not accurate to call America a racist country, but it really depends on what you mean by the word racism. Racism actually has two components. The first is the feeling or belief that people of different ethnicities have innate differences (B1). The second is the actual dislike, anger, and conflict that occurs when different ethnicities clash (B2).

Your two definitions are in close parallel to Merriam-Webster's definitions in paraphrase;

M1a) idea that ethnicity is the primary factor determining human traits
M1b) idea that an ethnic group is inherently different (superior/inferior) from (to) another ethnic group
M2) ethnic prejudice or discrimination

What is missing in both is the broader definition drawn from the strict definition of anti-Semitism taken by Alan Levy of "when anyone thinks of me as a Jew first and Alan Levy second."

A3) perceiving a person by ethnicity first, and the individual characteristics second

The slightly different definitions, without proliferating the logical combinations, can be realigned according to how a society recognizes a person regarding ethnicity along an ethnic awareness scale (EAS) along the axis of the degree of perception/recognition/understanding of ethnicity as follows.

(no ethnic knowledge assumed)
0. has little/no idea about the person's ethnic group

(little or biased ethnic understanding)
1. recognizes the person's ethnic group but mostly as a naming convention
2. recognizes the person's ethnic group in terms of superiority/inferiority

(unbiased ethnic differences understood)
3. recognizes the person's ethnic group in its multivariate traits

(ethnic difference or ethnicity not assumed)
4. recognizes the person's ethnic group without assuming different traits
5. recognizes the person but without inquiring about the ethnic group first

According to this scale, the above definitions can be roughly arranged as follows;

0. (absence of ethnic perception)
1. A3 (potential racist)
2. A3, B2, M1a, M1b, M2 (classical racist)
3. A3, B1, B2, M1a. M1b, M2 (scientific racist)
4. A3 (nominal racist)
5. (fully non-racist)

America, precisely because it comprises hundreds of different cultures and dozens of different ethnicities, is probably the country in the entire world where the first component of racism, the feeling of any innate difference, is the least. By that measure, Americans are the least racist, because they are the most likely to consider people of different ethnicities equal because they're the most used to dealing with them on a daily basis. Americans may be more vocal and express their opinions if they think there are differences, but that is a different matter.

Although 'racism' is defined at an EAS scale of 2 (classical) or 3 (scientific), and certain parts of US society may have achieved level 4 (nominal) on the EAS scale, certain parts of it may still be dwelling on level 1 (potential) or 2-3 (classical-scientific).

On the other hand, countries that have very few racial or ethnic minorities may seem to have very little racism because there is very little opportunity for conflict -- precisely because there is such little mixing of ethnicities. When there is little occasion for people to discuss or even deal with their xenophobic feelings, there is no conflict and therefore the people of those countries can consider themselves quite "enlightened" and look down their noses at countries where there is racial conflict. These countries may have very little of that second component because there is little mixing of ethnicities and therefore little occasion for conflict or anger, yet the first component -- innate feelings of superiority or inferiority assigned to race or ethnicity -- may be the strongest there. And as we have seen, once these countries start accruing sizable "immigrant" communities of different racial and/or ethnic backgrounds, they suddenly discover that enlightenment can be much easier in theory than in practice.

Non-US countries without many foreign peoples where racism may not be a widely debated topic may very well fall on the EAS scale 0. (absence) or 1. (potential) and might very easily fall into racism at level 2. (classical)-3. (scientific) on the EAS scale when little or biased understanding takes root. As Bramicus points out, such a country may conceive itself as non-racist due to no or little ethnic contact. But such a country may be only waiting for a variety of racism of EAS scale 2. (classical)-3. (scientific) to emerge if ethnic knowledge and education are not provided. In conclusion, Japan, with only a dash of foreign population, may very well be considered either without much ethnic perception/potentially racist (scale 0-1) or classical racist (scale 2). The same could go for many countries with categorically similar ethnic composition with little ethnic awareness/education.

 

[Brooker]

It depends on what part of America you live in maybe. Maybe it's because I go to a community college where half of the students are foreigners and everyone seems to get along, but I think America is pretty enlightened for the most part when it comes to the mixing of various races, and I like that. Sure it's not always perfect, but I feel like people are becoming more color blind all the time. Don't let a few bad apples you might have seen make you believe the whole batch is bad.

 

[Silverbackman]

The question I really want to ask, is, is racism as prevalent in other countries as it is here in the states?

Hmmm I am a bit offended by this statement. Are you implying that Americans are racists? I have lived in both large towns and grew up in a small town, and let me tell you racism does not exist to the same extent that it might around the world. You want to see real racism go to Sudan, if you are a Black Christian in Sudan you will be targeted instantly by Arab Muslims. Or why not go to India, if your skin is too dark some people in favor of the caste system won't hire you because of it.

In any case, racism exists all over the world, sad but true. You can't say that Americans are any more racist as Europeans. As far as I have heard Japanese don't distinguish on looks but on nationality. I heard they are particularly racist toward Chinese because of the large amount of Chinese criminals in Japan.

 

[alexriversan]

i assume, japanese people can recognize the difference in behaviour/talk pattern.

would not consider this as full racism. it depends, if foreigners try to upkeep their ethic identity/potential bad manners, or to try to adapt.

of course, japanese may misconduct as well, but foreigners are counted two times. this can cause "conditional racism"- it only occurs, if a foreigner performs misconduct.

real racists may sometimes locate far away from true sympathy towards the own people.

 

[Jent]

Hmmm I am a bit offended by this statement. Are you implying that Americans are racists? I have lived in both large towns and grew up in a small town, and let me tell you racism does not exist to the same extent that it might around the world. You want to see real racism go to Sudan, if you are a Black Christian in Sudan you will be targeted instantly by Arab Muslims. Or why not go to India, if your skin is too dark some people in favor of the caste system won't hire you because of it.

In any case, racism exists all over the world, sad but true. You can't say that Americans are any more racist as Europeans. As far as I have heard Japanese don't distinguish on looks but on nationality. I heard they are particularly racist toward Chinese because of the large amount of Chinese criminals in Japan.

Don't take such offense. It's not like I don't live here too. I am not implying ALL americans are racist....

Where I live, there is a lot of ignorance and hatred towards anyone different. I live in the middle of friggin Nebraska! You wouldn't think so, but I seem to run into it a lot. I grew up with a father who told me ever since I was old enough to understand, that if I married someone from a different race, he'd pretty much disown me. I used to have to hear his racial comments all the time, like when we were watching TV or even out in the grocery store. He tried to make me hate other people because of their skin color, or because they were different and that's why I don't. I always thought my father was such an ignorant fool for acting in such a way.

So, I used to think there were just people out there like my dad. But then there's the people that make racist comments, like calling someone a chink or even a nigger from time to time. That always makes me mad, it seems like they say it because they really truly believe they are better than whomever they are talking about, but also, because they feel they can't describe the person they are talking about with making it blantantly obviously that they are enough skin color.

And I know this doesn't just exist at home. I know there are people like this scattered all over the place. You can't say that everyone's past racism now and loves each other because I know that's not how it is. Isn't the KKK still an organization today? What about the neo-nazis, are you going to try to convince me they don't exist anymore? Just search them on the interenet, they are still there if you aren't sure. I know that racism doesn't only happen in the United States of America, but I KNOW it happens here. And that is the point of this thread. To see what it is like an other places, and to learn what other countries struggles are like with this topic. Like what Sgt. Pepper posted.

 

[Uprock]

Racism in Japan, well I don't think racism is the right word for it. However, it seems to me that Japan is infamous for discrimintaing against foriengners. I don't know if this has answered your question. :?

I was going to say the same thing. There was definitely a sense of discrimination against foreigners when I was there, yet at the same time a strange sense of love and appreciation for them. I can't explain it, but it's there...

 

[Karani]

Isn't that interesting? Actually, you guys may be familiar with the "wa" in Japan, right? There are several different kind of groups in Japanese society and then there is Japan as a whole. An example of those kind of groups would be, an everyday family, a small business firm, a town, a corporation, a city etc etc. Let's take the family for example. It's kind of like, whatever happens in the family stays in the family. Anyway outside of the family is a foreigner. The same thing goes for other groups in society. They'll respect those outside of the group, but maybe you can never be apart of their group. But, it seems that there are groups that open up to foreigners, ie. people outside of their group, but this kind of culture still seems to be prevelant in Japan. This relates in "tatemae" and "honne"... look it up. It's interesting.

Also, think about the way japanese so-called "discriminate" in this way:
For example, there is a bubble. Anyone or thing inside this bubble is considered clean. Anything outside would be dirty. That's probably why there are still "japanese only" signs in japan.

 

[lexico]

Hey, welcome aboard, Karani !

For a moment I wasn't sure which 'wa' you were talking about; ﾋ彗, ﾋ彖, 窶ｰﾃ､, or 窶堙ｭ. Interesting analogy to the family.

 

[den4]

I believe (not that I know anything mind you) that Japan does have a racist element in its makeup that is brought about by the strong (if sometimes unspoken) sense of wanting to clarify just who is Japanese and who isn't. I also believe that at the same time this racist element often breaks out its ugly head in the form of folks like Shintaro (blinky) Ishihara and the folks that run around in the black buses with the megaphones around the major cities protesting when major leaders from outside Japan (the gaijin) come to hold a summit meeting in Japan.
What many people tend to forget in the zeal to name the racists in our society, pointing fingers that is, regardless of which country it is in, is that most people aren't racist, even if they do tend to have an aversion towards those that are different than ourselves to some degree. People love to bundle other people into nice categories to suit their comfort zones so they can justify their arguments one way or another...what is harder is to realize that those that are screaming the loudest about racism or discrimination are usually found to have some issues with these topics themselves...that by somehow pointing at other people and saying how bad that is that they are racist or discriminatory tends to avert attention away from their own issues with the subject.
Kind of reminds me of all of them televangelists in the US that went down in shame when they preached to the masses about family values and decency, only to find out that when you opened up the hood, that they also happened to have some social perversity that they hid from the public. Kind of also follows the olde saying that "it takes one to know one..." or that when "you point fingers (with your index finger that is), three fingers are always pointing back at you..."
I tend to dislike these witch hunting threads because they tend to really bring out the uglies in the hunt for more scapegoats...

but then, since I know nothing, you shouldn't listen to what I say, either...go listen to Uncle Frank...he makes more sense than I do

 

[lifutushi]

racism in Japan? i thought Japan is a homogeneous nation. but their prejudice against foreigners is clear(not every single one of them, of course), i think.

well, i'm not very familiar with racism, since here in Malaysia various races get along together. but that doesn't mean that there's no diversion in community here. the biggest prejudice factor here is politics, as far as i'm concern. people here won't bother what colour your skin is, but they are more interested in whether you are a government supporter or an opposition supporter. isn't that stupid?

but i really hope that someday Japanese would open their mind to foreigners, since many foreigners across the globe are interested in them.

 

[Kinsao]

Hi,
It was really interesting to read this thread.
BTW, I like the 3 fingers image. I hadn't run across that one before! Kind of reminds me of Wicca and the 'law of threefold return'...
Anyway, I can't say about Japan, I have never been there. I got on this forum because I am interested to know more, because of relations with my Japanese friend Maybe I will go there one day...!
I can say only about England... Here, it seems that there are 2 extremes. The public has a sense that we are taking in lots of asylum seekers (in fact, it's not so true, but that's how people feel... ) So, at one extreme some people have unreasonable dislike of those who look like asylum seeker/refugee (what I would think of as 'racism'), although, often people don't even know the difference between 'asylum seeker' and 'refugee'. There are many people who are ignorant and think they are all 'fake' and come to take jobs of local people, money, benefits etc... but in fact they have only a very small amount of money to live on...
At the other extreme, some people are very caring about foreigners who come to England, and they try to help them to learn English, get necessary work skills or make use of their existing skills, find friends (English and of other countries - simply so that they can have social life and not feel isolated), etc. etc. Some people devote their whole job and life to helping such people.
Of course, between these extremes there are the many different gradations of people's feelings.
I live in a large city, which has a population which is only just over 50% 'white British'. It has a very much Asian population. The younger Asian people (under 30) are generally second-generation and were born here. This is usual in my city and most 'native people' who live here would assume that Asian person was also 'native to city' and not really notice their skin colour etc. (of course there are some exceptions who are really racist, but they are minority.) These Asian people are generally from the Indian sub-continent, rather than east of Asia (Vietnam, China, Thailand, Japan etc. etc. etc....) People from east of Asia are much less usual here. I would say there is not much racism against them in my experience, it seems that English people have a healthy respect for and curiosity about the east Asian countries; also maybe because they are perceived as being economically 'better' :? (not sure of the right word), for instance, Japanese person would instantly be thought as a tourist or student, not terrorist etc. (!), i.e. not 'threatening' to our people in terms of taking money and jobs...........? But that's just my view...
In my city there is also increasing number of people from Middle East and Africa. I feel there is more prejudice against Middle Eastern people because of reasons I said earlier. Of course, there is some prejudice against black people, too. It is noticed that in England in general, black males don't do so well in school, fewer of them go to university, and fewer have 'high up' jobs. In my city, I think these scenarios are less noticeable because it has such a strong mix of people. So, from my own viewpoint I would probably notice less racism. I can't apply my views to England as a whole; I would likely be totally wrong!
I think it's OK that people *notice* cultural differences, it makes for an interesting life! But where does it stop from being 'interest' or 'curiosity' and start to become 'racism'? I think there are cases where gaijin in Japan maybe feel 'racism' to themselves, but perhaps sometimes, it can be 'interest' which went over the boundary of what we consider 'OK'. (Of course, there is genuine racism in every country, Japan no different, possibly more, but I'm not getting into that because I can't judge about Japan.)
Sorry this is such a long post :sorry: I type fast and got carried away!

 

[lv426]

Yeah that sounds pretty much right, there does seem to be some sort of respect or admeration towards oriental people (I guess because Japan is sucessfully exsporting its culture through film). I think the main reason people dont like people from the middle east is the clash of cultures, e.g. religion. I know that most people I know feel like Muslims are not making a big enougth atempt to fit in, e.g. they are always trying to push their values into the mainstream. So therefor people feel like they are imposing in on the typical British culture, which I dont think you can call racisum as I belive that if you go to another contry its important to respect their ways. I truely belive that if any forigner tryed to fit in they would be welcomed with open arms. Another factor that I hear often and happen to agree on is the way women are treated, England being a liberal culture like the fact women and men are treated equaly. With a large percentage of Muslims people feel like this is being threatened to some degree, so people often feel that its not on that they do not adapt to this.
There also seems to be some growing unrest in the British Muslim culture, I think many of them are getting confused themselves (this is all based on a channel four documentary). Many are finding it hard to choose between their religion and the country they live in without realising they can choose both, alot of them belive they are not true Muslims unless they suport their home contry and attack the west (even though they are living in a western country). Intrestingly in this documentary one Muslim told another that if he hates the west so much, why does he continue to live here and shorley he should go home if he does not like it here. This comming from a man who was trying to get Muslims to vote for either of the three main parties, many of which would not vote unless it was an all Muslim partie.
I'm getting board now so I'll rap up, basically my conclusion is that it takes two sides to come together. Is one group really going to be acepted if they disregaurd the culture they are trying to fit into.
But then again I'm bias myself, I only really know people from the rest of europe and the orient. Pluse I belive all orginised religion is evil and continues to divided and opress people, and yes I'm not atall religious. But I dont know it seems like alot of people from other countrys are getting upset about illegal imegrants. Anyway although this is not about Japan, I would be intrested to hear other peoples thoughts about this!

 

[Uprock]

Also, think about the way japanese so-called "discriminate" in this way:For example, there is a bubble. Anyone or thing inside this bubble is considered clean. Anything outside would be dirty. That's probably why there are still "japanese only" signs in japan.

I definitely concur.

 

[Mercedes]

Well, all I know is that some people in Japan don't quite like gaijin.

As for where I'm from, the USVI, a lot of people are blatantly racist against each other. It's almost like the people here want the cycle of racism to continue; they teach their children to hate people with certain skin colors. It's disgusting, but I suppose that's what happens when people live on an island.

 

[Jent]

Well, all I know is that some people in Japan don't quite like gaijin.

As for where I'm from, the USVI, a lot of people are blatantly racist against each other. It's almost like the people here want the cycle of racism to continue; they teach their children to hate people with certain skin colors. It's disgusting, but I suppose that's what happens when people live on an island.

That sounds pretty bad. I think my dad wanted me to be that way.

 

[Mercedes]

That sounds pretty bad. I think my dad wanted me to be that way.

Oh, it is. It's absolutely horrible. And, with all due respect to your father, I hope you defied his wishes.

 

[mkeosouvanh]

On japanese marriages!!

My soon to be husband is from japan.
I met him here in the states when he wasworking for HDK,INC in Chicago
How are people when it comes to racism when a different ethnic background marries a Japanese man.
I have 1 child from a previous relationship,but her father was vietnamese/chinese/cambodian
my child and fiance get along just fine,
But i think his mother had a problem or 2 with this fact.
His mother doesnt seem to say too much about it anymore but we are still in the states too.
How do you think things will be when we actually move to Japan in a few months?
Is there going to be some difficulty especially with his mother?

or with society?
I am going to be starting fashion designing college there when i go,
and see everything being fine with certain things.
But just worried how it will be with the mom. :?