Pronunciation Of Kanji...

[PaulTB]

There is actually no restriction whether a calligraphy kanji should be written 縦書き or 横書き.

Calligraphy in general, yes. But what about 草書 in particular?

 

[seasurfer]

Calligraphy in general, yes. But what about 草書 in particular?

To put it in the English term, 楷書、隷書と草書, are just kinda of different "fonts" for the kanji. Each kanji is independent regardless of the way you write, whether vertically or right to left. It does not destroy the meaning nor the beauty of it. It is really up to the writer. Most people write it vertically, because the tradition has been that way. However, since the introduction of western culture into east asian countries during the late 19th century, way of writing has changed. People start to write horizontally. 草書 is just like the cursive letter in roman alphabets. When you write those kanji fast enough then it becomes 草書 (of cos, u need to know the way to write) . You can do this in a horizontal way as well. You can find modern calligraphy in 草書 pattern written horizontally, in both japanese and chinese.

However, I have to admit, from my experience, it is better to write 草書 vertically, as I personally feel that it is more natural, as you follow the movement of the word and the brush. But if you ask me if there is any restriction to 草書, I would say no as far as I know. In fact I have never heard of any restriction rule kind of thing until I come across your article.

 

[Glenn]

What you said is not really right. It is true that in chinese, the common word for safe is 安全（あんぜん）。But the word 安 is the true word the gives the meaning of safe or peace.

Firstly, each individual kanji or chinese character have its own meaning, it can exist by itself and can also be used on its own.

The character 安（あん）、actually means peace or safe. In both chinese and japanese as an individual character. So when this word is used as an individual, what comes to the mind is "something related to safe or peace". If you present the word 安 to a chinese or japanese, I believe most of them will understand the meaning.

Another example, 食, if you just have this character alone, it can mean anything related to food or eating, in chinese or japanese it literally means the same thing. Ditto, the word 安.

Well, have you ever seen a sentence like 安だけを望んでいます? I haven't, but then again, my experience with the language is far from exhaustive. My point is that many kanji are more similar to affixes in English than they are words. For example, un is not a word. It does, however, have meaning. It is a negating prefix. Are you telling me that 安 is used like I used it above, as an entire word meaning "peace?"

That aside, it seems that it doesn't mean "cheap" when used alone, if it indeed is. But according to my search of the 大辞林, it isn't.

 

[seasurfer]

Well, have you ever seen a sentence like 安だけを望んでいます? I haven't, but then again, my experience with the language is far from exhaustive. My point is that many kanji are more similar to affixes in English than they are words. For example, un is not a word. It does, however, have meaning. It is a negating prefix. Are you telling me that 安 is used like I used it above, as an entire word meaning "peace?"

That aside, it seems that it doesn't mean "cheap" when used alone, if it indeed is. But according to my search of the 大辞林, it isn't.

安だけを望んでいます？。。。Only looking forward to peace?

Well, I don't know if the word 安 can be used in such a way? But I haven't seen anyone using it like this.

I think you might have misunderstood what I am try to say. First, you need to know the concept of letter, character and word.

In japanese and chinese, each kanji is a character, it is unlike the roman alphabet. And almost all of these individual character have its own meaning since it was created in china long time ago. Most of the original meaning is still preserved in both language today. However, some of its original meaning might not be used commonly today.

Since each kanji has its own meaning, it can exist as an individual or as an
"affixes" as you mention. But I don't called it an affixes, as it is just a combination of characters, I will elaborate below.

For example, when the character 安 stand alone, it actually means peace or safe. Actually it means cheap only when it is written 安い. Because when the price is cheap, it is safe and you will feel "peaceful". That is how the meaning "cheap" come about. In fact, 安い means peace also. Example: 気安い、心安い。

When it combines with another kanji, such as 安全、it means safe, totally safe. The character 安 gives the meaning of safe, and the character 全 gives the meaning of total. So it is "totally safe". But, in today terms, the whole word 安全 means to give people the meaning of safe, and the character that gives 安全 the meaning of safe is 安. Hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

Another example, 気安い, meaning relaxed. 気 gives the meaning of "energy" or "ki" (if you practise aikido, you will know the meaning of this word) or "qi" (in the chinese term). And 安 as mentioned earlier gives the meaning of peace. So when the whole word 気安い means "peaceful energy", which means relaxed.

Going back to your sentence, 安だけを望んでいます？ I am not sure whether it can be used this way to make a sentence. I need to point out that, people generally don't used a stand-alone kanji meaning to make a sentence just like you do, in both japanese and chinese, as the meaning will be vague. Stand-alone kanji only gives a generally meaning in both of these langauges. To gives precise meaning of a word, it usually have to be combined with another kanji. Such as the above example 安全、気安い、心安い、公安。。。etc. The character 安 only gives general meaning of safe, but it does't specifically tells you what kind of safe or peace or cheap it means.

But if you were to write an ancient chinese or japanese article. Then you may use the stand-alone kanji to make a sentence. Which makes it one of the reason, why those ancient articles are so difficult to read and understand, even for both chinese and japanese speaker. Language is a flexible thing, it can be creative, that is where the beauty is. You may use it in the way you used it, such as that sentence, if the general speakers of that language can understand. Why not? The purpose of language is to convey your thought to another human being.

 

[Reiku]

Wow, alot happened while I was gone...

Thanks for moving the thread, like I said I was really tired when I first posted this and I mistook the "Nihongo Forum" as being a place to speak in Japanese, as opposed to speaking about Japanese.

(Huh, image tags don't seem to work in here--so much for my custom emoticons.)

At any rate, my knowlege of Kanji is fairly limited, I got the translations from Jim Breen's online dictionary/kanji lookup but the readings were listed in katakana and when I tried to translate them using this site the results I got were--well--less than pronounceable.

(I tried looking up the readings on other sources as well, and got several contradictory results--which just shows how reliable the net is for these kinds of things...)

As far as the connection between the text above and below the pic--there isn't any really. The text is part of a Shinto chant from the fire festival scene in Akira Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress. Both the three kanji and that chant/song represent certain key philosopies that are important to me, so I tend to use them a lot.

(The pic in my signature is also a link to my forum, and since those philosophies form much of the underlying theme of that site, I often use them in the site banners ect...)

BTW: As far as the reputation thing, PaulTB--some people in another thread misread one of my posts and assumed I was giving incorrect information, and since the urge to lash out is stronger than the desire to compliment, no one has bothered to give positive reputation for any of my other posts--so I'm currently at -5 for inadvertently stepping on some toes.

At any rate, I can't help what people think of me--and I don't particularly care. I can only share my knowledge and learn from others--what people choose to think of that knowledge is entirely up to them.

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Since I'm being told that the kanji I'm using do not accurately convey what I want them to, I'd appreciate any suggestions on a better translation.

(Preferably in Japanese kanji, as I recognize that there are many differences between the various symbols and their uses.)

I'd also appreciate any research tips you could give me so that I don't make the same mistakes in the future and can keep from having to bug forum-goers for the answers all the time. ;-)

 

[Glenn]

安だけを望んでいます？。。。Only looking forward to peace?

Well, I don't know if the word 安 can be used in such a way? But I haven't seen anyone using it like this.

That's exactly my point.

Since each kanji has its own meaning, it can exist as an individual or as an
"affixes" as you mention. But I don't called it an affixes, as it is just a combination of characters, I will elaborate below.

Well, perhaps "affix" was the wrong word for it, but I meant that it is used as a semantic unit that cannot stand on its own.

For example, when the character 安 stand alone, it actually means peace or safe. Actually it means cheap only when it is written 安い. Because when the price is cheap, it is safe and you will feel "peaceful". That is how the meaning "cheap" come about. In fact, 安い means peace also. Example: 気安い、心安い。

Right, it doesn't stand alone. That's all I'm saying. I understand that each kanji has its own meaning, and in many cases, more than one. All I'm saying is that they are better thought of in some cases as parts of words than words in their own right. For example, while "tele" is used as an abbreviation for "television" in British English, it is originally a Greek combining form that means "distant." When put together with the Greek word for sound, "phone," it means "distant sound" (telephone). However, really it doesn't have meaning on its own except for being abbreviated in one particular instance in one particular dialect to mean "TV." For instance, you won't hear anyone saying "*he seems to be a bit emotionally tele to me."

Another example, 気安い, meaning relaxed. 気 gives the meaning of "energy" or "ki" (if you practise aikido, you will know the meaning of this word) or "qi" (in the chinese term). And 安 as mentioned earlier gives the meaning of peace. So when the whole word 気安い means "peaceful energy", which means relaxed.

Once again, it gives meaning, but is not used alone.

Going back to your sentence, 安だけを望んでいます？ I am not sure whether it can be used this way to make a sentence. I need to point out that, people generally don't used a stand-alone kanji meaning to make a sentence just like you do, in both japanese and chinese, as the meaning will be vague. Stand-alone kanji only gives a generally meaning in both of these langauges. To gives precise meaning of a word, it usually have to be combined with another kanji. Such as the above example 安全、気安い、心安い、公安。。。etc. The character 安 only gives general meaning of safe, but it does't specifically tells you what kind of safe or peace or cheap it means.

Which is exactly my point. It isn't used alone.

But if you were to write an ancient chinese or japanese article. Then you may use the stand-alone kanji to make a sentence. Which makes it one of the reason, why those ancient articles are so difficult to read and understand, even for both chinese and japanese speaker.

Right, and we are talking about modern Japanese, are we not? That was the assumption under which I was working.

Language is a flexible thing, it can be creative, that is where the beauty is. You may use it in the way you used it, such as that sentence, if the general speakers of that language can understand. Why not? The purpose of language is to convey your thought to another human being.

I understand that, but it doesn't show that anything that I have said is inaccurate. I just shows that language is flexible. After all, I was saying that right now, in modern Japanese, native speakers don't use the kanji 安 as a word unto itself, but only as a part of other words, or with okurigana as an adjective, which to me, means that it isn't used alone.

 

[lexico]

I know my calligraphy sucks--but considering the late hour I wrote those at and the pen I was using (and the fact that it was the first time in my life I'd ever tried to draw a kanji) I think I did pretty well.

I don't know if this is any consolation, your characters are quite well formed, which are actually better than most of mine.
They resemble the late Qin to Han writings in stroke style, which are less curved but rather thick and straight. Anyway, what amazes me is how you stand all this criticism, however well-intentioned. You must have sturdy character as well as co-ordinated characters. I've only read upto here, so let's see what happens. Good luck!

This is the end. What happened, Reiku?

 

[Aghast]

Rudeness!

I just surfed into this site and read your message re. pronunciation. I cannot believe how rude and arogant some of the replies are! How do people become so anal! It has completely put me off finding out about life in Japan, as the afficionados seem to be so horrid! Whatever happened to common courtesy?????

 

[Reiku]

It got flushed down the toilet along time ago.

As for how I could stand the criticism, well...

1) First and foremost, I am a pragmatist: A person may be a jerk, but if I call them that, I am unlikely to get information from them.

2) I'm really not bothered by failed attacks--I guess it comes with studying the martial arts. Few people put much thought into their rudeness, making assumtions about a person and then attacking that percieved image--and if their attack misses, I see no reason to feel wounded.

A good example of this would be mikecash's initial comment:

"Probably thinks you can just string kanji together any old way you like and everybody will know what the hell it's supposed to mean."

He probably noticed the Japanese screen name, the anime reference, and the U.S.A. location and assumed I was an ignorant anime fanboy--so he attacked my supposed ignorance of the subject, thinking I was an easy target.

It's like trying to insult a black man by calling him a cracker--you just make yourself look stupid, so why should he care?

As for progress, there really hasn't been any--I used the english definitions for the banners on my site instead of the pronounciations I couldn't find, and haven't really bothered trying to find out since.

I'd still like to know, but as I no longer have an immediate need for the information, I'm content to wait until the answer presents itself.

 

[Buntaro]

Reiku,

Yes, there are rude people here. Put them on your Ignore list, that is the best way to handle them. If you need help on how to use the Ignore function, just let me know.

 

[Reiku]

There's an "ignore" function now?

I have been gone along time!

 

[GoldCoinLover]

I just surfed into this site and read your message re. pronunciation. I cannot believe how rude and arrogant some of the replies are! How do people become so anal! It has completely put me off finding out about life in Japan, as the aficionados seem to be so horrid! Whatever happened to common courtesy?????

God I know, people do this to me all the time, especially mikecash.

I feel sorry for this guy. Hey, raiku, PM me anytime and I'll do my best to help you (even though I ain't the best in japanese) sorry they are doing this to you.

 

[Mike Cash]

Don't worry, Kevin, I'm through trying to ride your roller coaster of disturbed emotions.

When you consider that the Japanese language doesn't belong to me and that there is not a limited supply of it, you have to realize that I have no possible reason for wanting to discourage you or anyone else from learning it. I've only posted things attempting to help give you a little guidance to getting started learning it. And attempting to do so in the face of your massive self-pity and mercurial mood swings hasn't exactly been a joy ride. Your last couple of posts spitting in my face have finally convinced me that there is no point in continuing further.

 

[Damicci]

I still love you mike! Even though I don't think any harm was done by the statement, but there so many people out there who think know kanji just because they walk around with flash cards and try to show how much Japanese they study it is easy to assume foreigners don't have a clue about how to read and or pronounce kanji. It is a difficult task. At anyrate good luck with reiku. I don't think i'll ever be able to properly string kanji together to make a phrase. But will be willing ot give it my best shot.

 

[Elizabeth]

I've only posted things attempting to help give you a little guidance to getting started learning it. And attempting to do so in the face of your massive self-pity and mercurial mood swings hasn't exactly been a joy ride.

I agree with the point about the self-defeating nature of trying to direct another member's efforts through an online forum. My philosophy tends to offer concrete help to anyone willing to keep learning on their own and hope a few early successes boost their confidence, stabilize their efforts and generally lead to more focused results. I was the absolute poster child for disorganization and randomness when I first started....way worse than anything you think you've seen in Kevin...on the other hand I was in way over my head almost entirely independently as well. So I can basically see both sides of the coin.

 

[Mike Cash]

Given his nature, the only possible role I could fulfill for him is to provide a convenient scapegoat to blame if/when he finally gives up.

 

[Reiku]

Don't worry, Kevin, I'm through trying to ride your roller coaster of disturbed emotions.

When you consider that the Japanese language doesn't belong to me and that there is not a limited supply of it, you have to realize that I have no possible reason for wanting to discourage you or anyone else from learning it. I've only posted things attempting to help give you a little guidance to getting started learning it. And attempting to do so in the face of your massive self-pity and mercurial mood swings hasn't exactly been a joy ride. Your last couple of posts spitting in my face have finally convinced me that there is no point in continuing further.

Just out of mild curiousity--who's Kevin?

 

[Mike Cash]

I have a bad habit of preferring to use people's real names to address them rather than their screen names. Post #38 was a reply to post #37.

 

[Reiku]

Ah, I had trouble with that when I first started using forums--now I have so many differant screen names myself it's like being schizophrenic.

The martial artist and philosopher side for Jref, the Musician side for www.bboy.org and www.ddruk.com, the computer programer side for Gaming World, the evil side for Death Tap's Hentai Hideout (there's really not much hentai there, actually)...

...sadly, I guess some people don't have the luxury of being themselves even through the anonymity of the internet--just about the only place I can really be myself is on my own forum...

...and that's because there's hardly anyone there.

 

[Mike Cash]

Certainly people have the luxury of being themselves. There's nothing stopping people from using their proper names on the internet.

 

[Reiku]

Actually Reiku Hiteruo is my name. Reiku is my Gempuku name and Hiteruo is my last name.

I don't use my birth name IRL, actually.

As for being oneself, perhaps I should've qualified that:

Not everyone has the luxury of being themselves--if they want to interact with others. Humans are a notoriously picky species, everyone tends to segregate themselves into groups and visciosly--even violently--exclude those who do not fit the stereotypical image of that group.

As a philosipher, martial artist, Techno/Metal/Jazz/Hip-Hop/Swing musician, and many other things, I can rarely show all of myself to any group without being instantly ostracized.

Frankly, my opinionated nature nearly does the job on it's own.

In real life, it's not a problem--as I'm not a partcularly social person. But I don't go to internet forums to be by myself, so there is a difficulty there.

For example:

If I was spittin' my mind in street, who'd listen to my ***? Y'all say I be wack no matter how ill the knowlege I be droppin' was. Don't front, you know it.

Like it or not, all people carry such prejudices. Some try to keep them in check, other's aren't even aware if them.

To function in a community, one must follow it's rules--that is simply the price of cooperation.

Fortunately, I be as chill talkin' in street--as I am using college level english.

 

[Mike Cash]

All very interesting, but there is nothing stopping you from using your birth name in any place and under any circumstances. You have exercised the option to not do so; no outside force has compelled you.

 

[Reiku]

Yes, but a name is not who you are.

"Being yourself" is different from "using the name your momma' gave you".

In fact, the entire concept behind taking a new name during one's Gempuku was that it allowed the individual to pick a name that defined them--rather than using a title decided by others at or before their birth.

Ah, but here I am falling into one of the traps I was just writing about in my wikipedia article on identifying trolls:

> Ignores statements which detract from the troll's argument

As for being oneself, perhaps I should've qualified that:

Not everyone has the luxury of being themselves--if they want to interact with others.

I actually agreed with you on this already: No outside pressure can force someone to not be themselves.

This is true--technically one could chose to be themselves even if it meant being killed for it...

...but I dare say there can be a large amount of pressure, even if it isn't strictly irresistible.

I find people who advocate the "just be yourself" philosophy usually don't have the difficulty being accepted that those of the "Are you crazy? I'll be lynched!" philosophy do.

It quite a bit harder to be yourself for those who'll face violent opposition if they do.

Anyway, I think we've hijacked this thread long enough-don't you?

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't think I've argued against your point about being yourself, whether under your birth name or not, or that the appellation "troll" is in any way justified.

I merely pointed out that there using or not using one's birth name is a matter of personal choice. If you don't want to use yours, fine.