OT: Type 45 & military hardware

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Actually I'm pretty sure I don;t and its readily apparent your grasp of this and other issues is tenuous, if not non existent.
No, you definitely have it all wrong.

Ok whatever mate. I'm sure you know everything.
Like how Sea viper is inferior to a bit of "off the shelf" kit 'anyone' can buy from the Americans.
And how the most recent anti air ship to be developed, and developed by a nation that prides itself on being a Naval power, and had a "money is no object" approach built a boat that was inferior than some older, cheaper boat.

Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope has talked of the RN's pride in a Type 45 being asked to switch off PAAMS (Primary Anti Air Missile System) because it was "constraining the training" in exercises with US forces.

Or how Japan is just a abuz with exciting politics, and how the leaders just don't give a damn about what the home voter thinks.
And it's not conservative/republican/politically right in anyway,
Man I bet the working conditions out there must be a Frenchman's Dream what with all the power the Unions and their Left field sponsored political parties must have.

Oh yea and tell me again that story about how Russia is a fading power,
(in other news, Syria has not been invaded, Georgia Has been invaded and much land annexed - despite the USA)


I am sure you also know that Article 9 is pretty much defunct already as it's hugely open to interpretation. Japan Traded it's self-defence force for a proper grown up Ministry of Defence some years back - but hey you knew that, and know about the subtle ways in which this has enabled Japan to put boots on foreign soil eh

Which isn't surprising given your general posting behavior.

WOW and a PHD in psychology too, what don't you know?

=

It's all politics for the home voters.
Dont ask questions about what we are doing - get angry at johnny Japanese For going to an island
Don't get angry at us for screwing up - get angry at Chinese Chris for going to an island

The problem is, its all fun and games till it costs you,
And what really is the end game for Japan?

 

[noyhauser]

Ok whatever mate. I'm sure you know everything.

Like how Sea viper is inferior to a bit of "off the shelf" kit 'anyone' can buy from the Americans.
And how the most recent anti air ship to be developed, and developed by a nation that prides itself on being a Naval power, and had a "money is no object" approach built a boat that was inferior than some older, cheaper boat.

Aegis is hardly off the shelf. In FY2013 the US military will spend $2.3 billion dollars on the Aegis BMD research alone. That's just one part of the system and doesn't include near yearly upgrades to the AN/SPY-1 computer systems, radars and missiles. The SM-6 system incorporates an extremely advanced seeker head based on the new AIM-120D warhead. Furthermore Tico and Burke classes actually have a real anti-ship capability in the form of Mk 41 VLS... where the type 45 has none.

Certainly the type 45 is a good ship and its system is top of the line, however its not the best ship in the world.

Or how Japan is just a abuz with exciting politics, and how the leaders just don't give a damn about what the home voter thinks.
And it's not conservative/republican/politically right in anyway,
Man I bet the working conditions out there must be a Frenchman's Dream what with all the power the Unions and their Left field sponsored political parties must have.

This does not even make sense.

Oh yea and tell me again that story about how Russia is a fading power,
(in other news, Syria has not been invaded, Georgia Has been invaded and much land annexed - despite the USA)

So russia beats up a country with 1/20th the population and that proves its a major power? Really it doesn't prove much, particularly when it was hardly a flawless victory.

Considering Russia's atrocious demographic situation and collapsing social system is leading it to lose population faster than Japan, its a fading power. Furthermore its proven oil reserves are declining rapidly... which is basically becoming the basis of its economic power.

I am sure you also know that Article 9 is pretty much defunct already as it's hugely open to interpretation. Japan Traded it's self-defence force for a proper grown up Ministry of Defence some years back - but hey you knew that, and know about the subtle ways in which this has enabled Japan to put boots on foreign soil eh

In support of UN or multilateral operations, far less of a shift than the German government carried out since 1999 when they moved to being a more normal power.

Furthermore Japan's military capabilities remain extremely limited when it comes to its actual ability to deploy out of country. It has no long range strike or precision strike capability, effective EW, true long range persistent recce, precision strike capabilities, among a whole host of other things that are essential for a "normal military."

WOW and a PHD in psychology too, what don't you know?

I know enough to know a troll when I see one.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Aegis is hardly off the shelf. In FY2013 the US military will spend $2.3 billion dollars on the Aegis BMD research alone. That's just one part of the system and doesn't include near yearly upgrades to the AN/SPY-1 computer systems, radars and missiles. The SM-6 system incorporates an extremely advanced seeker head based on the new AIM-120D warhead. Furthermore Tico and Burke classes actually have a real anti-ship capability in the form of Mk 41 VLS... where the type 45 has none.
Certainly the type 45 is a good ship and its system is top of the line, however its not the best ship in the world.
This does not even make sense.

It's an anti-air platform, As I write this it is the most advanced and most capable anti-air platform that is floating on the sea. right now.
It would not normally be sailing around either. It would be sailing in a fleet, with other ships. This allows for the type 45 to be so specialised. It does however have some long range anti-ship capabilities.

So russia beats up a country with 1/20th the population and that proves its a major power? Really it doesn't prove much, particularly when it was hardly a flawless victory.
Considering Russia's atrocious demographic situation and collapsing social system is leading it to lose population faster than Japan, its a fading power. Furthermore its proven oil reserves are declining rapidly... which is basically becoming the basis of its economic power.

The reason why Georgia was mentioned is because Georgia was a massive ally of the US. They had thousands of troops in Iraq at the time, a country which at the time had the highest troop count in Iraq after US and UK. Georgia got annexed by Russia, after their aggressive action. Action they took, because they too believed that Russia was a fading power and would not go against the US.

They were wrong.
Within days Georgia was getting bombed, and annexed
The USA, EU, and UK all took to saber rattling, Using words such as Russia, Withraw and war in the same sentence.
The message from every nation (bar france), especially the US was clear.
Withdraw from our ally or we will bring war to you.

Russia did not withdraw.
Meanwhile the Americans were flying Georgian troops back from iraq, (as georgia has no real transport caspabilities)
Russia told the US. that if they continue to do so, that the american planes would be shot down as soon as they entered the conflict area, and that further more Russia would consider the presence of American military aircraft in this region as constituting a full fledged act of war, which would garner a serious response.

The USA backed down.
Turning several planes around midair.

Russia is one of the most powerful nations on this earth.
This is coupled with the fact that they are also pretty mental.
It is a country run by it's secret service.
It will actively engage in and sponsor criminal activity to advance it's own interests.
It has thanks to it's systems some seriously powerful and scarily dark abilities that it is not afraid of using.

And that is what it comes down to.
Russia will go there.
Not only can Russia wipe out the entirety of any country it chooses, but it bloody will too.
They have the minerals to carry it through.
The US president may be commander in chief of the most powerful military industrial complex the world has ever seen,
But he would never take a course of action the result of which would be bombs dropping on American cities.
He couldn't.

In support of UN or multilateral operations, far less of a shift than the German government carried out since 1999 when they moved to being a more normal power.
Furthermore Japan's military capabilities remain extremely limited when it comes to its actual ability to deploy out of country. It has no long range strike or precision strike capability, effective EW, true long range persistent recce, precision strike capabilities, among a whole host of other things that are essential for a "normal military."
I know enough to know a troll when I see one.

I think you are seriously under-selling Japan's capabilities.
They are for all intents and purposes a Nuclear power, with plenty of precision strike capabilities, and a good Navy.

 

[jeisan]

It's an anti-air platform, As I write this it is the most advanced and most capable anti-air platform that is floating on the sea. right now.
It would not normally be sailing around either. It would be sailing in a fleet, with other ships. This allows for the type 45 to be so specialised. It does however have some long range anti-ship capabilities.

Because a ship is sailing in a strike group or whatever, a modern fleet is a much larger group of ships than would sail together at once, doesn't mean that it can be so specialized as to not be able to do its full duty. Other ships will have to have to fill in for the shortcomings in the type 45's capabilities. Even that specialization leaves something to be desired.

You'd really have to take issue with the "most capable" idea even once Sea Viper is in service, considering the example of America's latest Flight IIA Arleigh Burke ships, air-defence destroyers too. These carry two helicopters to the Type 45's one, and 96 missiles to the Type 45's 48. They can fire Tomahawk cruise missiles at targets hundreds of miles inland - the main useful employment for surface warships in modern wars.

The American ships bristle with other useful weapons. Their Aegis/Standard missile system, unlike PAAMS/Sea Viper, can be upgraded to shoot SM-3 interceptors, able to knock down targets in low orbit or ballistic missiles fired by rogue states.

Aegis ships can also fire the latest SM-2s if the problem is sea-skimmer attacks; here the high siting of the Type 45's Sampson and cunning French tech in the Aster 15 missile might offer some advantage*, but one probably more than counterbalanced by the Aegis ship's much larger missile magazine and the endless millions poured into developing the SM-2 over the years by America.

... buying a hugely more powerful Arleigh Burke type ship would have actually been a lot cheaper than Type 45; and we could still have handed out a bit of good news to politically-important UK shipyards. South Korea's KDX-IIIs, essentially Arleigh Burkes in locally built hulls, are estimated [3] to cost 1.2 trillion won apiece. That's less than half the price of a Type 45 at today's rates, for a hugely better ship. And the Korean shipyards got lots of lovely government work on KDX-III, just as Clydeside did with Type 45.

... PAAMS/Sea Viper, once it's finally fitted and working, will probably be very good against sea-skimming missiles and moderately capable against targets further off (though the ships will have no anti-surface capability to speak of, again very disappointingly). But actually it's no new thing for Royal Navy ships to be supplied in a non-functional condition; the previous class to arrive, the Type 23 frigates, had no working combat computer system for several years after their entry into the fleet (and this is every bit as serious as it sounds).

*Not in the case of a fleet or task group with a proper airborne-radar aircraft up, of course. But as the expense of the Type 45 seems likely to mean no proper, fully capable flying radar for the RN in the foreseeable future, we may be glad of the Sampson's measly 30m height above the waves one day.

MPs slam 'disgraceful' Type 45 destroyers -The Register

Stripping away the hype, Sea Viper has never been tested against a supersonic target and there are no plans to do so - meaning that it would be a brave decision indeed to rely on it against supersonic threats in combat. (The system's first four trials even against subsonics saw two failures.)

Sea Viper's French-made Aster missiles can probably reach out to 75 miles, but the inescapable curvature of the Earth means that the Sampson masthead fire control radar can't lock on to a low-flying target until it is within 20 miles or so. Various modern and indeed not-so-modern anti-shipping missiles (eg the "Klub", "Sunburn" and "Brahmos") are both low-flying and supersonic.

Then there are some serious gaps in the Sea Viper's (and thus the Type 45s') capabilities. The system cannot attack surface targets, meaning that the Royal Navy's new and cripplingly expensive destroyers will be almost powerless against properly-equipped warships or even quite minor gunboats and the like.

Sea Viper is also, realistically, never going to be capable of shooting down ballistic missile warheads soaring above the atmosphere as the Aegis/Standard system used by various US and allied-nation warships can (indeed Aegis/Standard can actually shoot down satellites in some circumstances).

ﾂ≫??.1bn Royal Navy warship finally armed, sort of -The Register

I think you are seriously under-selling Japan's capabilities.
They are for all intents and purposes a Nuclear power, with plenty of precision strike capabilities, and a good Navy.

While Japan may be considered by some to be a defacto nuclear power, due to its nuclear power plants, processing facilities and waste, in reality if a nuclear war broke out they wouldn't be able to develop a nuclear weapon in time for it to matter.

I don't really feel like looking up the war between Georgia and Russia, but I have the feeling that with some googling your statements would prove to be skewed as well.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

lol ok - brilliant selection of "selected quotes" there.

It's purpose, it's function is to shoot down planes.
It is very good at this.
To say it has poor anti ship capabilities, or anti ICBM interception capabilities is moot.
1. because anti ICBM capabilities don't actually exist. (that work)
2. again the boat is not traveling on it's own and any enemy boat will be detected by Naval intelligence long before it's even close to being a threat.

I hate to say this but specialization is really what it is all about.

And I will tell you this now, the true capabilities of the Type 45 are not in the public domain.
We know little things, I.E. it can track 1000+ targets at a time.
But we don't know the full number, Just as we also do not know the ships top speed.

To say the type 45 is crap because it has no real anti ship capabilities, is like saying that the Vanguard type submarine is crap because it has no anti-air capabilities.
The vanguard is the most stealthy sub in the world. Not even the Americans can track it.
The type 45 is the most advanced anti-air platform on the sea, once again not even the americans have a plane it wont shoot down.

And soon Britain will have the best aircraft carrier in the world.

All the articles you have posted really say is that the RN propaganda / dis-information team has done a sterling job.

And yea - the type 45 would still be able to take out most ships it is likely to have as enemies.
Not to mention that it has something far more lethal and useful than American ships when it comes to striking against inland targets.
namely 60 Green Berret Royal Marine Comando's -

 

[visser300]

It's an anti-air platform, As I write this it is the most advanced and most capable anti-air platform that is floating on the sea. right now.
It would not normally be sailing around either. It would be sailing in a fleet, with other ships. This allows for the type 45 to be so specialised. It does however have some long range anti-ship capabilities.

The reason why Georgia was mentioned is because Georgia was a massive ally of the US. They had thousands of troops in Iraq at the time, a country which at the time had the highest troop count in Iraq after US and UK. Georgia got annexed by Russia, after their aggressive action. Action they took, because they too believed that Russia was a fading power and would not go against the US.

They were wrong.
Within days Georgia was getting bombed, and annexed
The USA, EU, and UK all took to saber rattling, Using words such as Russia, Withraw and war in the same sentence.
The message from every nation (bar france), especially the US was clear.
Withdraw from our ally or we will bring war to you.

Russia did not withdraw.
Meanwhile the Americans were flying Georgian troops back from iraq, (as georgia has no real transport caspabilities)
Russia told the US. that if they continue to do so, that the american planes would be shot down as soon as they entered the conflict area, and that further more Russia would consider the presence of American military aircraft in this region as constituting a full fledged act of war, which would garner a serious response.

The USA backed down.
Turning several planes around midair.

Russia is one of the most powerful nations on this earth.
This is coupled with the fact that they are also pretty mental.
It is a country run by it's secret service.
It will actively engage in and sponsor criminal activity to advance it's own interests.
It has thanks to it's systems some seriously powerful and scarily dark abilities that it is not afraid of using.

And that is what it comes down to.
Russia will go there.
Not only can Russia wipe out the entirety of any country it chooses, but it bloody will too.
They have the minerals to carry it through.
The US president may be commander in chief of the most powerful military industrial complex the world has ever seen,
But he would never take a course of action the result of which would be bombs dropping on American cities.
He couldn't.



I think you are seriously under-selling Japan's capabilities.
They are for all intents and purposes a Nuclear power, with plenty of precision strike capabilities, and a good Navy.

What is this? Are you brain washed or something? You must read all of the above from a Russian's source or some thing. There is a thing called 'English source' so please check it.

Russia is an old power. Soviet was a super power yet they gotta back down in Cuba crisis event. Now you are going to say that Americans would surrender a fading power? The world just need to stop buying Russia's oil and the country would go back to stone age again.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

In a stinging attack on the US, Putin told government ministers: "It's a pity that some of our partners, instead of helping, are trying to get in the way". He said the US was using "its military transport aircraft to relocate Georgia's military contingent from Iraq virtually into the conflict zone".

NBC reported on Monday that U.S. military transport planes had started to bring all the Georgian troops deployed in Iraq back home. "U.S. aircraft have made eight flights to bring Georgian troops home from Iraq," Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said. Nogovitsyn pledged to take adequate measures.

source: GlobalSecurity.org

 

[ewww]

SevenStarsHK2N, it is so funny to read about Georgian troops moved by US back to Georgya.

Georgian 'troops' did never participate in combat in Iraq, they were used for support only. There were about 2K people, who were working as car drivers, nurses, janitors, etc ... Georgyan ammo, communication apparature and command system were different from NATO standards, that is main reason, why these troups were useless in combat. BTW, skill level, expirience level and discipline - those qualities were not common in Georgyan army. Many of these people did never keep gun in their hands. Do You find that funny?