What's new

Russia's military incursion into Georgia

Yes, it is quite clear who triggered the invasion.
Although I've heard about Fox news I guess watching it is different than hearing about it.
Thanks for sharing.
 
Georgia was relying on US but unfortunately US didnt do anything,So Some countries shouldnt rely on US,for example Japan,if japan has attacked by Korea or China i am sure that America will not do anything than watching.
and it's the same for Taiwan and south korea.
Japan must rely on the Japanese people who saved it all the time.
 
Here in the US we are led to believe by our media that it WAS Russia that started the "war", but if one does some research, one comes to find that it WAS Georgia who started it and Russia was well prepared with intelligence as to when it would happen. I wonder if the fact that there were 1,000 Israeli "advisors", 1,000 US "advisors", and 1,000 US marines in country might have had something to do with it?
Make no mistake about it, it was all about the control of the gas and oil pipelines coming out of the Caspian Region. Western oil companies, including Isreaeli firms, probably desire to route oil pipelines out of the Caspian Region from Azurbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

First off, Israel, and the United States don't have 3000 troops in Georgia. That's a pure fabrication. The U.S. at one time had a training excerize in the country with 1000 soldiers, but they were withdrawn soon after. I believe there have been some Israeli military exports to Georgia, and a few trainers were sent. The latter is not out of the ordinary; Israel is a major Arms exporter with major deals to such places as India and China. However they had very few advisors in the country. Probably less than a couple of dozen. Much of the bilateral links were not to do with Oil as you claim, but based on a jewish expatriate community. However even Israel decided to scale back its exports to Georgia last may, limiting sales to non-offensive weapons for fear of antagonizing Russia.

The U.S. has provided some training, much of it related to counterinsurgency training for Georgia's deployments into Iraq and Afghanistan. Some training was provided for conventional warfare, and strengthening the professionalism of the armed forces so that they have a healthy relationship with the civilian power. That's part of NATO's Partnership for Peace program.

As for the "gas" motive, its not even close to what you claim, First off yes Georgia is an important part of the region's energy infrastructure. But the United States and the West did not want to see this war occur whatsoever and even made moves to. It too warned Georgia NOT to antagonize Russia needlessly, as Russia was goading them to attack. Georgia took the action because it was upset with Russian actions in the region that made it seem as if they wanted to bring the enclaves into the Union, which Shaaliskasvili had previously stated was an unacceptable situation. On April 20th they shot down a Georgian UAV over Abkhazia, and stated they would accept legal documents from the region's authorities. It was a slow burning fuse which was going to explode.
The United States at this time viewed the situation with dismay. It certainly DID NOT want Georgia to attack. In Early July Secretary of State Rice travelled to Georgia and told the government this directly. Georgia however ignored that advice, possibly thinking the west would back them anyways.


Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines that reach the Turkish port of Ceyham, rather than the Russian network. The oil would then flow to Israel's oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to it's Red Sea Port of Eilat. From there supertankers can carry gas and oil to the Far East (China and Japan?) through the Indian Ocean.

Or, they could just simply ship it directly to China through the preexisting pipelines in Kazakhstan...

Your point betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the energy infrastructure in the region, just to make these ridiculous conspiracy theories. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to pipe oil to the east through Israel when they can get the oil directly from the Persian gulf a far larger and more consistent source. Moreover simply sending the oil to Europe has the same effect as it drops the market price of oil by easing demand on Arabian sources.


Does anyone really believe it was about independence for a small area of Georgia? HA!

What's laughable is your utter lack of understanding of the issues involved. It might be easy for you to dismiss the importance of Abkhazia and Ossetia to the Georgians but its likely you've never lived in a country where territory and ethnicity was security issues. Its the very same with Kosovo, Sakhalin Island, Bosnia or many other conflicts. Thousands of Georgians have died over the years in fighting inside the enclaves, many of whom were civilians killed in ethnic cleansing. Its an emotional issue.

Moreover in this case losing South Ossetia is not just a "small area." It seriously compromises the security of Georgia because it allows any invasion to cut right through the heart of the country and split it in two. Instead of having several hundred kilometers to mount a defence of the capital Tbilisi, the loss of South Ossetia puts the border only fifty kilometers from the city. This is one of the main concerns for Georgia; Russia's infiltration of the region was becoming a serious threat to its security.

So really, if you want to keep throwing up complete fabrications and mistruths, go ahead.
 
You can say what you want noyhauser, but it seems, to me, you are one of the "sheeple" who believe any and all news fed to you by your local media. Call me a conspiracy nut if you must, but you are sadly misinformed and need to do a little more research than what you get from your controlled media. My link above regarding "Faux" News proves my point as one can easily see that Shepard Smith is looking at his producers who are telling him to cut the interview short and go to commercial and the dumbfounded look on his face. His strings were being pulled.

My understanding of the issue is well founded and based on fact, not just what I read or hear from the local media. I suggest you do the same and you may as well be turned as I was that the media is lying to us.
Please show me your links to news that says I am wrong or that there were no military advisors from Israel and the US in Georgia and that there were no US marines. Please read this story, do further research and tell me I am wrong. I am just looking for the truth and, if you prove me wrong, I will gladly say so as I am not infallible. There are plenty of stories in opposition to the US version including the video above.

Once you understand that your local news is just propaganda and that there are forces way above your government that control all things happening today will you come to understand what is going on around you and that you are the atypical person "they" are hoping to persuade as your posts prove.

Are you wrong for your views? No. IMO You are just misguided and need to wake up to just what type of wool is being pulled over your eyes. I was once of the view that you hold but, in my attempt to prove the conspiracy theorists wrong, I stumbled upon the real truth. Hopefully, you also will also come to understand. If not, then more power to you. Just please provide links to views that you espouse besides the local media.

To say that this is just not a psychological game between the US and Russia with Georgia being the pawn for control of the oil and gas pipelines and thousands of "expendables" being killed in the process, just shows your ignorance to what is really happening. It's all about power and control of oil and gas, just like in Iraq. If civilians get killed in the process so be it. It's the control that matters to "them". Always has been throughout history and always will be.To quote Rice is a joke as she is a puppet also and does what her masters tell her to do. Remember, she also has a stake in the oil industry as she was once a board member of Exxon Corporation I believe. Bush and Cheney also have stakes in oil.

In the end, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject, but the truth will soon bare itself. However, I believe this was concocted to get McCain into the presidency this year. If I am wrong, I will gladly say so. Thanks for your input anyway as I will always follow up on your links and enjoy your posts, but something still seems "rotten in Denmark." We may never know the full truth, but I do know it is NOT what we are being fed from our propaganda machines on TV and in print.
 
Rednecks are ready !

My redneck brothers-in-laws in Tennessee & Alabama say all the Walmarts down their way are sold out of guns and ammunition. Everyone is ready to hold the Russians on the Georgia borders and keep em out of their states.

Uncle Frank

😊

PS - Lets not get too serious here.
 
You can say what you want noyhauser, but it seems, to me, you are one of the "sheeple" who believe any and all news fed to you by your local media. Call me a conspiracy nut if you must, but you are sadly misinformed and need to do a little more research than what you get from your controlled media. My link above regarding "Faux" News proves my point as one can easily see that Shepard Smith is looking at his producers who are telling him to cut the interview short and go to commercial and the dumbfounded look on his face. His strings were being pulled.
My understanding of the issue is well founded and based on fact, not just what I read or hear from the local media. I suggest you do the same and you may as well be turned as I was that the media is lying to us.
Please show me your links to news that says I am wrong or that there were no military advisors from Israel and the US in Georgia and that there were no US marines. Please read this story, do further research and tell me I am wrong. I am just looking for the truth and, if you prove me wrong, I will gladly say so as I am not infallible. There are plenty of stories in opposition to the US version including the video above.

Once you understand that your local news is just propaganda and that there are forces way above your government that control all things happening today will you come to understand what is going on around you and that you are the atypical person "they" are hoping to persuade as your posts prove.
Are you wrong for your views? No. IMO You are just misguided and need to wake up to just what type of wool is being pulled over your eyes. I was once of the view that you hold but, in my attempt to prove the conspiracy theorists wrong, I stumbled upon the real truth. Hopefully, you also will also come to understand. If not, then more power to you. Just please provide links to views that you espouse besides the local media.

To say that this is just not a psychological game between the US and Russia with Georgia being the pawn for control of the oil and gas pipelines and thousands of "expendables" being killed in the process, just shows your ignorance to what is really happening. It's all about power and control of oil and gas, just like in Iraq. If civilians get killed in the process so be it. It's the control that matters to "them". Always has been throughout history and always will be.To quote Rice is a joke as she is a puppet also and does what her masters tell her to do. Remember, she also has a stake in the oil industry as she was once a board member of Exxon Corporation I believe. Bush and Cheney also have stakes in oil.

In the end, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject, but the truth will soon bare itself. However, I believe this was concocted to get McCain into the presidency this year. If I am wrong, I will gladly say so. Thanks for your input anyway as I will always follow up on your links and enjoy your posts, but something still seems "rotten in Denmark." We may never know the full truth, but I do know it is NOT what we are being fed from our propaganda machines on TV and in print.

Sigh... the "Real Truth." As if there is such a thing or that you have some sort of special insight into it. As a historian I wouldn't ever make such a claim. I look for facts; Where people were, what were their actions, ect. Then I marry them up to perspectives of people who are the actors in the drama, from which flows analysis and understanding. It sounds simple, but its actually quite difficult and deep. It takes time and effort, patience.

I'd like to note, you haven't refuted anything I pointed out. Your original post was based on complete falsehoods; and you haven't refuted that. Your claim that Israel wants a pipeline through their territory makes NO logical sense whatsoever. Margolis' article doesn't make that claim; I will say that his article is not completely factual either, partly because Margolis isn't a Caucuses expert and is repeating quite a bit on conjecture. I don't think he would deny that. He doesn't reference the alterations in Israeli policy in the last year, which was based on a fear of angering the Russians. He also creates a simplistic view of Bush foreign policy, to which he is a consistent critic of. There was a lot of nuance in the situation, which he doesn't record.

Margolis repeats the simplistic claim that NATO membership would have impelled the West into a conflict with Russia, when as I pointed out above, it more likely a membership action plan was more likely to push the country to resolve the situation peacefully. If anything the limbo Georgia was put in made them feel that they needed to force the issue to gain membership. However this is neither here nor there, as you aren't interested in the nuances of the situation. You've made some ridiculous claims which are indefensible, to which you don't even have any proof. Even Margolis' article doesn't support your claims. Instead you turn around and write an essay about how I don't know anything and I'm just deluded by propaganda. Well you're right, I'm not a Georgian or Frozen conflicts expert… at least I wouldn't consider myself one. However a colleague of mine and weekly lunch partner is. He travels to the region frequently, speaks to Georgians, Russians, Abhkazians ect. reads articles in their native languages and the like. He's far more informed and insightful than you ever hope to be, and predicted this conflict years in advance, because many of the trend's I outlined above.

Personally, I've kept an outsider's interest in the area, reading books'n articles, attending seminars and conferences, speaking casually to experts and the like. I rarely watch television, and read voraciously the press. I know many reporters personally (including Eric Margolis who you cited above.) Once you get up close to the issue, even traveling to these places, reality becomes far more vivid. Instead of Margolis, you should have cited Anatol Lieven, who has reported extensively about the area, even living in rebel held parts of Chechnya during that war. He's a far more authoritative perspective, who has real knowledge of the workings in the region AND insider knowledge of US and European foreign policy. He excoriated the Bush Administration policy, but on a balanced basis. I'd disagree with some of his points, but you can't even start to claim he's some sort of cog in the machine.

What really gets me is the irony of this whole situation. I've watched the crisis unfold for the last few years, undertaking a fair amount of research from unique sources. You come on here with some fanciful theories based on almost absolutely no evidence. I point out how your points are wrong… and what happens next? You don't refute my counter points and instead turn right to attacking my knowledge of the situation, when its clear that you've done almost no research yourself, except to read some conspiracy websites and claim to be some sort of arbiter of truth.

It just shows how absolutely flimsy your arguments are in the first place.
 
I agree that Georgia had no business starting the conflict, however, at the same time Russia's response was a bit over the top. Just because the the little guy was pokeing the big bear with a stick does not mean we should allow the bear to crush the little guy.
 
It's all very righteous to say that Russia should not have done what they did, but as a practical matter, who in his or her right mind would have expected anything else from them? The country, whatever it has been called, has a long history of nasty behavior. Were the Georgians really so out of touch with reality that they thought Vlad the Poisoner would just sit idly by and say, "Oh, darn!" while the Georgians moved troops into South Ossetia? What on earth made the Georgians think they could get away with it? If they actually thought that the Russian reaction would help Georgia gain NATO membership, then they (the Georgians) are dangerously deluded, as far as I'm concerned. They may be, but I suspect that someone or some country influenced them (and of course I am not making any sort of hint about "International Jewry").
 
Gorgia has asked for a membership in the European Union. I guess that Russia is showing us all that she does not want the EU next door. None of the old states of the what once was U.S.S.R. should go to the EU. Or else ... Russia is showing off her power.
I am an evil guy here - Russian. Tell me how bad we are, as if I haven't heard enough, I live in a rather anti-Russian Western country and read.

Russia is not against EU, that's not true but against NATO and all the weapons that continue to build up around it.

I feel sorry for the Georgian people who were killed or suffered in the conflict and suffered because of Saakashvili's actions but I also feel sorry for my countrymen and South Ossetians you know what happens if some Americans (or any other nationals) get killed. Georgia has a bad record of internal conflicts a civil war, war with Abkhazia and conflicts with South Ossetia. Saakashvili acted irresponsibly in the area where a lot of caution is required, as other people already mentioned, hoping to get US help and a quick entry to NATO.
 
Back
Top Bottom