Ordinal number forms in Japanese?

dwcarless · 13 Nov 2009

So far I have come across 第三「だいさん」, 三番目「さんばんめ, and 三つ目「みっつめ」all meaning "3rd".
From what I understand so far:
1) 番目 can be used after any number
2) 目 can be used after the Japanese readings (first ten)

My questions are:
1) When can (is) 第 be used,
2) Where there is overlap, can all of them be used equally and interchangingly?

Thanks!

Edit note:
OK let me ask a little differently, if I may:

Ok so for "please get off a the 3rd station",which one is correct?
三つ目「みっつめ」の駅で降りってください
三番目「さんばんめ」の駅で降りってください
第三「だいさん」の駅で降りってください

"This is the 3rd book of the trilogy" which one is correct?
これは三部作の三つ目の本です
これは三部作の三番目の本です
これは三部作の第三の本です

"Today is the 3rd occasion of snow this month" which is correct?
今日は今月の降雪の三つ目の節です
今日は今月の降雪の三番目の節です
今日は今月の降雪の第三の節です

"Today is the 3rd biggest snowfall this month" which is correct?
今日は今月の降雪の三つ目の大です
今日は今月の降雪の三番目の大です
今日は今月の降雪の第三の大です

Thanks

Toritoribe · 14 Nov 2009

dwcarless said:
目 can be used after the Japanese readings (first ten)

The first nine is correct. You can't say 十目[とおめ].

dwcarless said:
When can (is) 第 be used

This is not a direct answer, but 第 is often used with suffix, 漢語名詞 or Chinese origin nouns without の.
第三回、第三次、第三期、第三話、第三戦、第三会議室、第三火曜日、、、

dwcarless said:
"please get off a the 3rd station"

○三つ目の駅で降りてください
○三番目の駅で降りてください
×第三の駅で降りてください

dwcarless said:
"This is the 3rd book of the trilogy"

×これは三部作の三つ目の本です
△これは三部作の三番目の本です
×これは三部作の第三の本です

この本は三部作の三巻目/最終巻です。

dwcarless said:
"Today is the 3rd occasion of snow this month"

今日は今月（で）三度目/三回目の降雪です。

dwcarless said:
"Today is the 3rd biggest snowfall this month"

今日は今月（で）三番目の降雪量です。

nice gaijin · 14 Nov 2009

Edit: lol you are too fast, toritoribe-san! Oh well it's good to see how my answer stacks up to yours

Ahh, Japanese counters. Here's a pretty extensive list: Japanese counter word - Wikipedia

Your sentences are geared more towards say, the third of something, as opposed to three of something. (quicklink to ordinal numbers). This is where the wonderful 目 character comes into play, but you should use the counter character that is appropriate to what you are counting.

OK let me ask a little differently, if I may:
Ok so for "please get off a the 3rd station",which one is correct?
三つ目「みっつめ」の駅で降りってください
三番目「さんばんめ」の駅で降りってください
第三「だいさん」の駅で降りってください

of the three, 三番目 sounds the best to me, but I would probably say it more like 後三駅降りてください, "after three stations, get off."

Also, 降りる is an ichidan verb, so it would be 降りてください。

"This is the 3rd book of the trilogy" which one is correct?
これは三部作の三つ目の本です
これは三部作の三番目の本です
これは三部作の第三の本です

Hmm, 三冊目 seems right to me, but if you're specifying it's a trilogy already, you could just say 三部作の最後の本

"Today is the 3rd occasion of snow this month" which is correct?
今日は今月の降雪の三つ目の節です
今日は今月の降雪の三番目の節です
今日は今月の降雪の第三の節です

I would want to say 今月で三回目の降雪, or 三度目

"Today is the 3rd biggest snowfall this month" which is correct?
今日は今月の降雪の三つ目の大です
今日は今月の降雪の三番目の大です
今日は今月の降雪の第三の大です
Thanks

hmm, I'm not too sure about this one. 今日の降雪の量は今月で三番目に大きいです。 ugh i don't know about that haha.

dwcarless · 14 Nov 2009

Thank you both!

It looks like the safest way to use Ordinals is to just ignore the 第 form and Japanese Cardinal forms; and only use the 番目 form after Chinese Cardinals for now.

Elizabeth · 24 Nov 2009

Toritoribe said:
△これは三部作の三番目の本です

Oh, that's cool to know. My habit was "vol. in a set: 全3巻" but someone told me that was also incorrect should be 3 Zen kan or something. I am still confused.

undrentide · 24 Nov 2009

Elizabeth said:
Oh, that's cool to know. My habit was "vol. in a set: 全3巻" but someone told me that was also incorrect should be 3 Zen kan or something. I am still confused.

You are correct saying 全三巻 when there're three books as a complete set.
We never say 三全巻. That is incorrect.

Elizabeth · 24 Nov 2009

undrentide said:
You are correct saying 全三巻 when there're three books as a complete set.

We never say 三全巻. That is incorrect.

Arigatou ! Does that mean 3 complete sets ? (*Different series' or titles*)

undrentide · 24 Nov 2009

Elizabeth said:
Arigatou ! Does that mean 3 complete sets ? (*Different series' or titles*)

It depends, but usually one single title (novel, manga, etc.) divided into three volumes.
Amazon product ASIN 4265104746for example.

Elizabeth · 24 Nov 2009

undrentide said:
It depends, but usually one single title (novel, manga, etc.) divided into three volumes.
Amazon product ASIN 4265104746for example.

Thanks for the link, undrentide-san ! I'm at the office so don't have a chance to look now, unfortunately.

But in situations where every volume is present in a set or sets would thus use "complete set(s)" as in "(1, 2, 3) 全集（全巻？） or maybe "すべての巻" ?? for a single complete series. :?

Ordinals:

(Third volume of this set)

この全集の３巻目
この全集の３番目
この全集の第３巻

Corrections welcome !

Toritoribe · 24 Nov 2009

Elizabeth said:
But in situations where every volume is present in a set or sets would thus use "complete set(s)" as in "(1, 2, 3) 全集（全巻？） or maybe "すべての巻" ?? for a single complete series.

三部作: three different titles, one single series
e.g.
大林宣彦監督尾道三部作「転校生」「時をかける少女」「さびしんぼう」

全三巻: one single title divided into three volumes(as undrentide-san wrote)
e.g.
宮城谷昌光著「太公望」上中下巻

全巻, すべての巻 can be used for both cases.
尾道三部作全巻セット, 「太公望」上中下巻全巻セット

Toritoribe · 24 Nov 2009

Elizabeth said:
Ordinals:

(Third volume of this set)

この全集の３巻目
この全集の３番目
この全集の第３巻

全集 refers to a whole works of an auther or age/series, and 第三巻, 三巻目 is used for the case.
e.g.
村上春樹全集の第三巻が発売された。
この作品は江戸中期仮名手本全集の三巻目に収録されている。(第三巻 is more common, though.)

３番目 wouldn't be used for the third book.

Elizabeth · 24 Nov 2009

Toritoribe said:
三部作: three different titles, one single series
e.g.
大林宣彦監督尾道三部作「転校生」「時をかける少女」「さびしんぼう」
全三巻: one single title divided into three volumes(as undrentide-san wrote)
e.g.
宮城谷昌光著「太公望」上中下巻
全巻, すべての巻 can be used for both cases.
尾道三部作全巻セット, 「太公望」上中下巻全巻セット

Thank you !

彼女は2完全セットの百科事典を持っています。Are these also correct for two complete sets ? This is seriously the first time I've considered the question in my life.

彼女は百科事典を2完全セット持っています。
彼女は百科事典を2まるまるセット持っています。？？

undrentide · 24 Nov 2009

Elizabeth said:
Thank you !

彼女は2完全セットの百科事典を持っています。Are these also correct for two complete sets ? This is seriously the first time I've considered the question in my life.

彼女は百科事典を2完全セット持っています。
彼女は百科事典を2まるまるセット持っています。？？

２完全セット sounds like she has two sets (total 4 volumes), not one set which consists of two volumes...
I'd say;
彼女は（全２巻の）百科事典を全巻持っています。

Ordinal number forms in Japanese?

dwcarless

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

dwcarless

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

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